Citizen Hearing 2013: Roswell, Part 2

0:10 that. Let's go ahead and begin with that, sir. Would you stand? And Or if you prefer sitting is fine, and just repeat after me. I do hereby affirm I do hereby affirm that I will tell the truth that I will tell the truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth to this committee today. to this committee today. Thank you, sir. Uh Mr. Chair, I believe we're ready to begin. We're reconvening the hearing. And uh do we have a new witness? And we're going to start questioning from going in this direction, taking testimony. Since we've heard uh testimony from the other individuals, uh I think we might open it up between a Q&A between the members and yourselves, because I think it generates uh focused information uh for the hearing. And not necessarily because we're so bright, but it's because the combination the synergy of the two can be very effective. Uh uh Colonel French, did we have testimony from you the other day, or is this the

1:12 first time you have appeared? No, this is my second appearance. That's what I thought. I remember I thought I remembered you and I was impressed the last time. Colonel French, the floor is yours, and uh give us testimony. I am Lieutenant Colonel Richard French, United States Air Force retired. I'm also a PhD. I was assigned to the 614th Tactical Fighter Squadron in Alexandria, Louisiana at England Air Force Base. I was sent to Alamogordo, New Mexico to accomplish my annual refresher course in the altitude While there, I learned of an accident a few miles away from Alamogordo away from Alamogordo in the direction of the White Sands. A short time later I witnessed the of a

2:14 of a fighter aircraft that I neither recognized or knew what it had no idea what it was. Anyway, the aircraft took off at a very high rate of speed and fired a rocket. The rocket was basically 5 in in diameter and about 6 ft long, about the same size as as some of the modern anti-aircraft aerial rockets. I mean aerial rockets. Afterward I was asked to uh to review some of the items that had were picked up from the crafts the crash site. There was no unknown there was an unknown number of humanoids either killed or injured. The parts of the casualties were taken

3:17 base operations at at Holloman Air Force Base. The only parts of the craft that I was allowed to see had markings that appeared to be uh Arabic or some some language I didn't understand. Later I learned the parts and the casualties were transported to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and turned over the foreign technology department division under which is run by Colonel Paul Because I had left the the Office of Special Investigations, I did not do any kind of formal report and had as I had been reassigned to the Pacific Air Forces at uh Tong Nae On Chun, which is uh in uh

4:20 So, for that reason I out of the went out of the business. But, uh I I have quite an experience of of uh seeing UFOs. The reason for that very simply is this that when I went was originally in the OSI the very first of it, the there are very common uh appearance at a place called Gulf Breeze, Florida. I don't know if that Is that familiar to you, that location? The reason I say that is on on virtually any evening, you can go out there and you'll see them come in and land or take off. We used to report that what they were were swamp But, very frankly, it was one of those things we were of course it was a lie, but uh I was required to lie. And that's the conclusion of my

5:22 Thank you. Uh we'll proceed into unless there's any of the others that want to give quick testimony because we've already heard you once. Uh we'll proceed to a Q&A and to a dialogue. Unless there's there anybody that has something that's burning in their heart that they want to tell or can we engage in a dialogue? Okay, I will start with uh the congressman from Utah. Uh Please. Mr. Mayor, I have 10 minutes, Mr. Chair. We'll have 10 minutes. We'll have 10 minutes? Okay, but don't abuse it. Don't tell them 10 minutes. They just got 8, they'll take 10. That'll take us to 5:00. Colonel French, this is uh really something that you've just said here. It's very important. It's uh highly significant and I hadn't known until just I read this and listened to you just now exactly what you are saying, but so I'm

6:23 going to ask you just some uh specific questions and I want to start by saying I commend you for all the service you've given our country in uniform and for the things you've done that way. This is a uh such a significant statement that I'm going to ask some rather specific questions if that's all right. And that's uh can you remember about when in the late '60s this this event occurred? As as close as you can. I mean, that's fine if it's just late '60s. If you know something a little more, I'd be most Sorry, I don't remember. Well, about when was it that uh you said it would had to do with training in the late '60s that you were sent to Alamogordo. Yeah. Okay. Uh that's good enough. Uh you learned of the accident a few miles away from Alamogordo. Now, when did you learn of that I mean, was it right at the time of the accident or was it later? Or Give me a little time frame here.

7:25 Well, it it was within to the microphone, please. If you get a little closer to the of hours. I mean Oh, the same day? Yeah. Oh, yes. Okay, I just want to make sure I understood that. Because I would fix this to say the same day. That's significant. Okay, you witnessed the takeoff of the Uh to the fighter aircraft that that actually engaged that unidentified Yes. object that was flying up there. And uh afterwards you were asked to review some of the items. Now, this is the afterwards I'm really interested in. When afterwards were you asked to review some of the items that were picked up from the crash site? The ones that I've been told Oh, uh just a minute. This Well, this statement I just read it says a short time later I witnessed No, no, no, excuse me.

8:26 Afterwards I was asked to review some of the items that were picked up from the crash site. There were an unknown number of humanoids either killed or injured. Did you see those? No, I didn't see them. I said that I was told about them. Oh, okay. Okay, now and I understand that and that's just fine. I just want to know exactly what happened here. The way this reads, I was wondering if you might have seen No. You did not. As I said, I've seen a lot of UFOs under other circumstances but not at that time. No, that's doesn't apply. Okay, you reviewed items and what were the items that you reviewed that were picked up that that made you believe what that you Well, explain then how how Well, how did you hear about the humanoids? Let me explain Let me ask it that way. I was told that that's what was found.

9:26 By who? People who were there. The uh Air Air Force people? Uh yeah, well, there were people who enlisted people and various people that were there standing on the ramp. Oh. Uh that were picking up No, they I I don't know what they were doing, but I say that there were needless to say there was a lot of gossiping and a lot of things going on that I was not a party to. Okay, so essentially you were told on that same day of the crash that there were unknown number of humanoids either killed or injured. Yeah. Okay. did you see or who did somebody just tell you that the parts and casualties were taken to base operations? I don't know. For instance, one of the people that I saw that I am certain would have seen it would happen to be a nurse that was in uniform. It was in uniform at the time.

10:31 She told you right then. No, no. I say she would have known, but she wouldn't talk to me. Oh, okay. Well, you can only find out something if somebody either tells you or shows you. curiosity of as to what was happening and and but they were very close-mouthed, very secretive about everything. Okay, and uh you had learned that parts and casualties were transported to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. again, I'd be most interested to know where you learned that or how you learned it or the circumstances of learning it. Well, later on I had a a very close friend who was a a full colonel and uh and talk who happened and Paul Sleeper was a very good friend of his. And he and I discussed that a little bit

11:31 and he said, "Yes, that's where the parts went." But that He was a full Colonel Dr. George Cristo. Dr. George Cristo told you that? Yes. At that same time essentially? That same year at least? Well, it's later, but I don't remember exactly how much later. Okay. Maybe after he had been through with his whatever non-disclosure he had to take care of. Um Okay, well, let me um just turn back a little bit to uh Stanton Friedman and anybody that might want to answer any of these questions. Um What evidence do we have since '47, certainly in the '60s or at the time of this Alamogordo incident or anything of uh What is the evidence that we have that's as as solid as we have? What is the most solid evidence of the humanoid parts and uh

12:33 and so on that that somebody told Colonel French about? Can we Can we get to a direct person that might have uh said something either to Colonel French or anybody else in in about Alamogordo or anything that has to do with humanoids? Let's get into that. I want to know the best evidence there is out there today. We've got lots of good abduction Now, you know, there might be things being withheld. That's not you know, and I understand all that. I just want to and that might be the fault of the army. That might be why we don't know. But, I'm interested in what we absolutely do know about humanoids, even if testimony from people who have been abducted is as close as you get. I mean who's uh saying that? Okay, well, it Give me the names. out there, Captured, the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience. It's about two people who were abducted. They were carefully investigated by Dr. Benjamin Simon, a psychiatrist who ran a hospital

13:35 for 3,000 shell-shocked war veterans. He says the emotional upheaval in their voices as he had 10 sessions with each of them was as strong as that in any of the war veterans that he had dealt with with PTSD. He's in the Army movie about PTSD. He He knows that feeling. Doesn't know flying And uh And they saw They were close, intimately close, to humanoids, to occupants from a vehicle from up there. Okay. Mr. what are the names of those people that said they were abducted and then obviously were came back to explain them about that. What were their names? You Their names were Betty and Barney Hill, a couple in New Hampshire. The book is Captured, the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience by myself. And the woman who did most of the work was Kathleen Marden, who's Betty's niece. She has the hypnosis tapes. It's a long story.

14:36 Uh involved story, but one of the best ones around in terms of the quality of the people. Betty was a social worker. Okay, and we can follow up and even read the book and so on. What uh what other examples uh do we have? Keep Keeping Keeping with the Roswell As we talked about rancher Mac Brazel. year. Yes, 1947. Yeah, thank you. 1947. Time of the incident. When the rancher first reported the find to Sheriff George Wilcox. And the rancher William W. W. Mac Brazel. Okay. Sheriff George Okay. And a reporter by the name of Frank Joyce from radio station KGFL placed the phone call to get some late breaking news for his next report. And the sheriff said, "I think there's someone here you should speak with." And according to Joyce, he didn't get the name of the individual on the other line, but at first he was quite angry. He was

15:38 about the fact as described earlier that he had to drive the sheep a couple miles around all this wreckage. Who was responsible? Who was going to come and clean it all up? I'm the supervisor and everything. And then he became more and more somber. And he started talking about it was horrible. It was horrible. You wouldn't believe it. And Joyce finally, "What are you talking about? Something else?" To which he then would suggest, "Are you talking about bodies?" To which Joyce then suggested, "Well, you know they're launching those rockets over at White Sands. Maybe they've launched an an animal. Maybe they're sending monkeys up in those rockets." To which Brazel fired back, "They weren't any monkeys. They weren't human." They were human. They weren't human. Oh, they were not. Weren't human. Okay, want to make sure I got that. Since then, Brazel's own granddaughter, Fawn Fritz, has described to us that she overheard her grandfather also make the remark about the poor unfortunate creatures.

16:39 We've also talked to young ranch boys at that time, uh Dee Proctor and Sidney Jack Wright, who were supposedly with Brazel when he would discover a couple of bodies a few miles from the debris field at another location. Another location. At Frankie Rowe. Uh so And so that you're saying that they did talk about it right at that time. Yes. Oh, okay. That's a little different than what you said. Well, it because it could take up a whole panel. I I've already gone over my time, but I'm most interested I was just going to say what you seem to be asking me was do we have any contemporaneous records from that time somebody wrote in their diary I saw bodies. If you want to talk about people who saw the bodies in 1947 yeah, we can give you lots of names. That's all that's all I wanted is people that said it at the time that and nobody questions they said at the time and you have said well we've got them saying it later and I just wanted to clarify this.

17:39 Is it clarified? Because Mr. Because as I pointed out Major Marcel the father of Colonel said it at the time and it became well known at the time. That's what I'm looking for something that was said at the time on a on a humanoid or some kind of a life form or something associated with one of these sightings. Could I take a minute? Please. Well It's up to the No, you can take a minute. Thank you. We had mentioned a Frankie Rowe. Her father was a firefighter with the Roswell fire department. His name was Dan Dwyer. And the fire department adjoined the courthouse at that time. There was one phone line that ran into both. You couldn't report a an incident to one without both hearing about it. So there was the report of a crash north of town. There was a talk about something that had gone down north of town. And the fire department investigated it.

18:39 They went to check it out. According to Frankie Rowe who is still alive that when her father returned the military already was securing the site. But that he described that they had seen the bodies. And it was later whether it was that evening or shortly thereafter they revisited by the military by a military officer and a number of other MPs and they were very sternly warned about not talking about this. Okay. Thank you Mr. Chair. Um I'd like to hear from again, any one of you that want to talk about this. Um What are the things that you were I'd like to know what you wanted to say in this panel that you didn't say on the first panel. So, Mr. Colonel Marcel, do you want to talk about what anything that you want to

19:42 talk about that you didn't talk about on the first panel? Well, I just uh have formed a lot of opinions about uh about UFOs and extraterrestrial visitations and and uh what I'd like to emphasize is the fact that the universe is such a large place. There's 10 to 20 second power stars, uh which is about the number of grains of sand on all the beaches on Earth. Uh and just say that one if they represent all the stars, they're all the grains of sand on the beach. Uh if you only say that one has life around it like us, uh and the rest of them are devoid of life, then I think we're sadly mistaken. Uh cuz the enormous possibilities of all life is everywhere. Thank you. Colonel Randall, anything you want to add that you didn't say earlier? One of the things that I wanted to kind of talk about, which I I I think diverges a a tad bit, is is this Project

20:44 Mogul nonsense. Air Force explanation that Project Mogul explains it all, that Project Mogul was highly classified, and that's why the officers at Roswell were unable to identify the wreckage when they saw it. But it turns out Project Mogul was although it was highly classified, the the purpose, the equipment, and the experiments being carried out in New Mexico was not classified. They were uh mentioned in the newspaper on July 10th as an explanation for what was found at Roswell. Charles Moore, who was the one of the scientists on on uh Project Mogul, had said that it was so highly classified they didn't even know the name. Yet, if you review Dr. Crary's diary from 1947, what you see is the name Mogul appearing periodically in it. The Air Force has used this as the cover. They said originally in 1947 it was a weather balloon. Then they said, "Well, we lied about that. It wasn't a weather balloon." And then they gave us another one. Uh uh another weather balloon as an explanation. And and that seems to have set in now after the last 10 years with with the media that well,

21:46 Roswell's explained as a weather balloon. And the answer is they can't even point to a flight uh of of these balloons that has not been identified as such. So, the Project Mogul explanation simply doesn't work. Uh We looked at and I say we, uh Don and and Stan and I have looked for alternative explanations for the Roswell case. We went to White Sands Missile Range to see if there was a missile launch that would account for the debris found on the Brazel ranch. We We went to uh the archives in Alamogordo on the space program to see if they were launching any kind of creatures uh whether they were mice or mayflies or chimpanzees that would account for the wreckage and we could find absolutely nothing. I had always said if we could find an explanation for this, maybe they had tested an astronaut in 1947 and he was killed in the test and if we could find something like that, we could write a best-selling books about it and make a lot of money. But we could find nothing that explains the Roswell wreckage. When you account for all the testimony, all

22:47 the people who were involved, what they told us, the limited documentation we have, but when you look at all of that together, none of the explanations offered explains it in terrestrial Yes, uh Mr. Friedman. Uh another point that should be made is that I contacted somebody who looked at the newspaper in Alamogordo, which is right next to Holloman Air Force Base. And it turns out they staged the launch of a radar reflector weather balloon combination. On July 10th? The the newspaper July 10th. Yes. and fantasy of flying disc explained here was the headline. they showed a picture of one of these balloon trains. And it just doesn't fit if you look at the facts about what they launched and what was observed. They don't match. They don't match at all. But the fact that they went to the of staging a launch

23:50 uh tells you something was very Uh why bother? You know, if it's just a dumb old weather balloon, who cares? Right. It it makes no sense. So, they went to a lot of trouble to try to cover it up and Cavitt, the CIC man, comes up with this real crazy story that he knew it was a balloon right away, it only covered an area 20 ft in diameter, even though the newspaper said mind you, fit in one car, nothing to it. If that's all there had been, the rancher would have brought in his wreckage in his little truck. Right. There would have been no reason for Jesse Marcel and Captain Cavitt to follow him all the way out in the middle of nowhere. There's a lot of nowhere in New Mexico. Right, which is And they stayed They had their sleeping bags.

24:50 Uh that's making a big deal about nothing when Cavitt lies and says would fit in one vehicle, 20 ft But the New York Times didn't comment about it. Everybody carried that explanation. So, one of the things we're dealing with here is a failure of the press to ask even the obvious questions. You know, the colonel, the head of the 509th can't just can't identify a weather balloon? These guys had fought in the Pacific. They they weren't right off the training Jesse Marcel couldn't identify a weather They got away with it. And so but this this is in the '90s, mind you. So, the press is still not doing its job. I can understand in '47. We just fought a great war. You know, you believe the government doesn't Didn't everybody believe the government back then? Uh but in '97

25:50 that they could get away with this, really bugs me. And but a little inside story. I'm waiting They have reissued Cosimo Publishers has reissued those two volumes of the Roswell report. The second one was case closed. The first one said they were not going to say anything more. 3 years later, this is the second one. On the top it says with a new by nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman, author of Crash at Corona, the definitive study of the Roswell incident. I'm waiting for somebody in the Air Force cuz my comments are very about lies by the Air Force about in this report. I'm waiting for somebody to say, "Hey, look what he said about us." If I don't make it home, you'll know Mr. Donald, in keeping as far as even on the CIC on the Sheridan Cavitt theme, as Kevin remembers the numerous

26:51 times that we actually sat down and met with then Lieutenant Colonel Sheridan Cavitt, he and his wife Mary. Whether in their home up in the Squim, Washington or their winter home in Sierra Vista. to Lieutenant Colonel? Yes. Oh, he is. Yeah, he retired Lieutenant Colonel. the very first meeting how we spent the better part of an afternoon his denying he was even there. That he had yet to even arrive at Didn't matter. You're talking about someone else someone who was there before me. And as we were leaving, he walked us out to the car. And he says to his boys, I need to know one thing. Should you find anything that should threaten national security, you will keep it to yourselves, won't And we looked at one another and what Yes, Colonel, of course, of course. And we got in the car and we looked at one another and said, he knows he knows. And then as we would visit and pressed more and more, we'd speak with him over the phone

27:52 and demonstrate not only was he there, but he was involved. And to the point that well, I went out there, but it wasn't really anything. Well, at one point he even said, well, it could have been a flying saucer, but I wasn't involved, that type of thing. The very last time we met with him and he and his wife were outside at the And I said to him, Colonel, I really have to hand it to you. You've been a man who's kept your oath all these years. You're a true patriot. And he thanked me and I said, but Colonel, what gives you the right withholding it from my generation? All of us who weren't even there in 1947. You decided for all of us. And he paused for a moment and says, I've never thought of it that way But I'm still not going to tell you And then his wife Mary blurts out, tell the boys about the Colonel from the Pentagon who was just here to to with And he turns and give her and gives her this look, you know, this searing look.

28:54 And it was Colonel Richard Weaver in preparation of the Project Mogul report to which Colonel Cavitt would come their lone star witness. And he snaps at us and yes, and I told him exactly what I'm telling you. I wasn't involved. Well, that's not what's in the Project Mogul report according to what he told Colonel Weaver. He was the one who immediately identified it as nothing more than this Mogul balloon. And in fact he kept it to himself. He didn't even bother telling the base commander or or Major Marcel, but that he saw that it was nothing more than a weather balloon. So we caught him in a flat lie. He nonetheless is the only witness to this being a Mogul balloon. But as he told us, as I'm as he said, as I told Colonel Weaver, I wasn't So who should we believe?

29:55 And and in fact, we have we have uh Colonel Cavitt on tape. It was right after Weaver had seen him and he was talking about how he wasn't there. We We said, well, they talk about this West Texas boy who was a good horseman and he and and Cavitt says, well, that sounds like me, but but I wasn't there. And this was after Weaver had interviewed him. We look at the testimony in the in the report and Cavitt says, well, I noticed it was a weather balloon immediately. The next question should have been, did you communicate this rather vital piece of intelligence to Jesse Marcel? But they go off on another tangent. Cavitt uh made it clear that the CIC was a class two uh facility on on Roswell, which means he did not report to Blanchard in the chain of command. Blanchard was required to support his activity. But he should have said something to Blanchard before he before he sends people out to clean the mess up and before he issues a press release and says, "Well, we got a flying Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, our next person to question is Carolyn

31:00 Thank you, Chairman. I think I'll go to Mr. Schmitt. Could you give me four sound scientific why we ought to look further into or why Roswell is important to what we're discussing this week? Very good. As I remarked in my opening statement, we're here representing the memories of so many of the hundreds of witnesses that we have interviewed through the years. We remain in contact with the families as they continue to encourage us to not only pursue a final solution to what their parents so often died with or would confide to having truth without proof.

32:00 It was one of the problems as we depicted even in the Roswell movie that you can swear on a stack of Bibles that this happened, but without the physical proof just as none of us, we can't prove this. So, what we're asking or what we're certainly asking as far as your counsel on behalf of those now deceased witnesses as well as their surviving what type of effort on our part or how would you advise us to even continue the work of the late Congressman Steven Schiff in pushing for a disclosure of the file and opening of the Roswell file once and for all. We don't want to see Project We know all about Project Mogul and this it does not address the eyewitness The wooden crash dummies wasn't even that same year. It was 5 years removed.

33:02 We're talking about sworn affidavits, deathbed declarations. the support of the families who would at least like to know that their spouses, their husbands, their fathers didn't live a lie. Didn't persist in maintaining that this was something extraordinary. This was something beyond any earthly The fact that as I keep hearkening back to your own esteemed colleague Congressman Schiff he obviously saw that he was being stonewalled. That there was much more to this. Okay, stop. Give me three or four specific scientific realities that we know happened at Roswell. in Roswell.

34:03 It's an historic fact that the United States Army Air Corps announced on July 8th that they had captured a flying That's not scientific, it's historic. And they acknowledge that they're Mr. Marcel's father saw particles. Yes. Some people saw it crash. Yes. And did you just say the military or the our government acknowledge that a flying saucer or something crashed? They put out a press release that they had They captured a flying disc, Okay. That's one. would be the fact that for years thereafter, no matter what the second solution to the recovery, the weather eyewitnesses were still discussing this with their families, still saying that the flying saucer was the correct Even to their deathbeds. The third would be the deathbed testimonies, admissible in a court of law. And what did one or

35:04 two of them allude to or testify to or say? As I stated earlier That they saw it, they saw it crash. They would talk about either guarding, shipping, Okay. crating up, flying out the remains, the wreckage, handling of the wreckage, Okay. seeing the bodies. All that needs to be on the record. That's why I want you to be specific and you're doing well. One more, sir. One any one other thing if there is one. If there is not, that's okay, you know. Fourth would certainly be uh flight records, for example. Records as far as outgoing uh cryptology records from the base. This was one of the things that even Congressman Schiff was pushing for through the General Accounting Office for all the records concerning the And the And the GAO information received from all branches of the military, specifically the Air Force, was that all the records of the base at Roswell in the summer

36:06 had been mysteriously destroyed. Okay. Now, we don't believe that for a second. No, they're classified. They're over there somewhere. Okay. I don't I don't want to lose what we have. Our Our responsibility is here. So, those records exist. And we would also ask that Okay. Again, if they were to disclose anything else of this panel and others probably, too. And you just identified three or four things just off the top. There might be That would give us something in writing, a page or two, with listing those. So, that we wouldn't have to dig them up. It would help us in our deliberations or whatever recommendation we would make. If the experts can provide, particularly this on Roswell and some of the other things that we heard last 3 days, and I'm sure the next two, that would help us make intelligent decisions on what we might get together and try to agree on and try to recommend, if we can come to such a point. That would be helpful. Let me just I should Well, this We did mention that during the break that we should have provided you with a

37:07 timeline, a breakdown, a principal wit- Not too late, though. It's not too late. if we combine as far as Stan's efforts and our own, we're talking a combination of uh we're approaching 100 years of research in this. I understand. And it has become so complicated, so involved, that to just provide even a briefing paper, we would be happy to do that. Okay. And And what I'm suggesting is that you all have the briefing paper and we'll brief who we want to share this information with. We don't have it have have it quite finite like that. We do have to have it in a statement of two or three sentences that we would understand that we can teach and mobilize and educate others so that we know we're talking about it, and then we would bring you guys in to to actually give it to them and give them the detailed information. That's not to mention that you probably shouldn't have some If it's this important, and I think that it is in terms of what we're here for this week, there ought to be something, a document, a something that all you all can come behind and all the research that you've done. You know, You know how you're in college and get

38:08 these primers? It doesn't have to be a big volume. You got You've got them in a lot of volumes already. Just put it Because of all the the work that members of the House and Senate do in this town, it's going to be something like that. It's not going to be a big volume that gets the attention. It's what you say, how you say it, and how concise you can do it. If you'll do that, that'll help us do whatever we're going to finally end up doing and presenting. I forgot that the panel wasn't at my lecture last night where I went into some Too late. We started 6:00 in the morning. We don't do it. You're right. I mean, we really do. And we go from 6:00 in the morning, contrary to what the newspaper says about all of us. We work very hard. From 6:00 in the morning to 10:00 or 11:00 at night. But I'm here and it's all non-stop. But we we're very sorry that we couldn't get in. We probably won't be at the ones this evening. But that's not to say that we aren't interested in what you do and what you say. And we have prepared briefing documents in the past when we have responded to the Air Force, for example, Project Mohole. And we would have press

39:08 conferences and we would have briefing Mhm. uh documents to present to the suppliers to the media. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. How are you, back there? Thank you very much. Congressman I I Congresswoman Lynn You, he knows my name. Thank you. Somewhere in today's uh testimonies in the papers and I Was it Was it um Major uh Marcel that was put into a taken put in a house where he was uh held kind of hostage. Mac Brazel. Oh, that was a Brazel. yeah. Talk about that a little bit. Well, what is What was that about and how did he get through that? What happened is Brazel came into course on a Sunday and and announced that he had this debris. He then led Marcel and Cavitt back out to the ranch. They brought the uh material

40:08 back to Roswell. He stayed at the ranch. Now, a couple of days later, the radio station owner of KGFL brought Brazel back into town so that they could they could interview him. They they recorded an hour-long interview with him. before they could air that, they got uh And and we have this testimony on on both audio and video tape from Jud Roberts, who was a minority station owner of KGFL, that they were told by uh their congressional representatives that if they aired that uh report, they better start looking for another job cuz they wouldn't be in the radio business anymore. Uh Walt Whitmore, who was the minority or majority owner, took Brazel out to the base. So, he that's how he got out to the base. They then kept him out there for a number of days. They brought him into or took him into Roswell to the newspaper, and he made the statement that appeared on July 9th about the harassed rancher who found the whole And according to what Brazel said to

41:10 neighbors, Marian Strickland, the Proctors, and people like this, he was held there for a number of days and was not allowed to leave so that the the military had him in custody. Edwin Easley, who was the Provost Marshal, was the one who told me that he was held in the guest house as opposed to another facility on the base. So, he was held there for a number of days. His son, Bill Brazel, read about his father in the newspaper, went to the ranch, his father wasn't there. He came back a number of days. So, the best estimate is he was held in Roswell for 4 to 6 days after he had returned. And is that when he stopped talking? He was he was told he was told I always got the impression from talking to Bill Brazel that they merely said to him, "We would rather you kept this quiet." And Bill said to us, "My father was such a man that if you asked him to do something like that, and he gave his word, then that was good enough, and he wasn't going to talk about it." So, he shared very little with his family about what had happened to him or the neighbors, but he was really annoyed about being held in Roswell for a a of

42:10 days, and that is what he talked to about to the neighbors and we have a great deal of testimony from those who heard him talking about it. So, you're talking about a civilian who is arrested, detained by the military for 5 to 6 days. He was not afforded due process. You you know, your typical two phone calls. He was not even allowed to call his own to tell her where he was and that he was He described how he was kept up all hours of the night and he was asked the same questions over and over again. So, it still comes back to what information, what did he see that was so sensitive that the military saw in their best to keep him under lock and key until they gain his cooperation and then were assured in their releasing him that he would not say anything further about this. As his son Bill would say to us, it's better you don't know. Don't ask. It's better you don't know.

43:13 Okay, I really don't have anything else. So, thank you. Again, thank you all very much for your for your testimony. These were not animal remains in that rocket. I can say that with some confidence because I was involved in the first suborbital primate flight in Pensacola, Florida and I went there in 1959. So, it was about 1960. We did the first suborbital primate flight early early in in in our space uh venture. Was there a Mogul launch that could have been responsible for this? The evidence that has been presented and it was Dr. Albert Krar at Dr. Albert Krary's diary who gave us the information. The identified flight was supposedly uh flight number four on June 4th, 1947. The According to Crary's diary, because of cloud cover, the missile launch had been canceled, so

44:14 their flight was canceled. Charles Moore, who was a scientist, told me when that happened, they stripped the equipment from the balloons or from the arrays, but they couldn't let the helium out of the balloons, so they would let the balloons go. Uh Crary's diary then has a cryptic note about the on the same day that we flew uh SonoBoy up there and got couldn't get good reception. So, there's some discussion about it. The first uh recorded flight for uh Project Mogul was flight number five. There had been three flights in New Jersey prior to them getting to New Mexico. So, the the documentation is a little bit hinky on that. but the but according to what Charles Moore had said in a in a letter that he wrote in 1995, that um they didn't file the NOTAM as they were required by the CAA at the time. Uh and I'm I'm sure he did this because we were look we we went through the archives. I went to the archives looking for the NOTAMs because I'd like to see how they described the arrays and if there was uh

45:14 uh a NOTAM for the June 4th launch. He said in a 1995 letter that they had not contacted the FAA because they didn't expect this mythical flight to get off the um restricted area at White Sands. So, even if the flight was launched, it wasn't expected to reach any altitudes and it wasn't suspected to get off the White Sands missile range according to him. And I'm I'm sure that he'd said that simply because that would explain why there was no FAA notification. There is no good documentation that flight number four ever ever ever uh was launched. There was no good documentation that it reached the Brazel ranch. There was good no no good documentation that Brazel was unable to identify the weather balloons. The Mogul arrays were just weather balloons, regular weather balloons. There was uh you know, 15-20 weather balloons strung together, but it's still weather balloons. Jesse Marcel would have recognized the weather balloons for what they were. Cavett obviously recognized the weather balloons, but the but the point is simply that that had it been a Project Mogul flight, we would

46:15 have been able to identify it specifically from the testimonies of the witnesses and the documentation Uh, why would they need a several day clean up if it was a Mogul balloon? They wouldn't. They wouldn't they wouldn't have. Uh, if it had been a Mogul in fact is that well documented there was a several day clean up with a number of military people? According according to the witnesses, the people who were on the debris field cleaning it up, the the men who were there that we were able to interview uh, prior to their to their deaths, some of them on audio tape, some of them on video tape, they spent several days cleaning up the debris on the Brazel ranch site, yes. Okay. You know, before my dad died, uh, I asked him, would any of the debris still be out there? And he said, no, they vacuumed the place up. Those were his words. They vacuumed it Okay. Okay, really thorough clean up. Why do we assume that other intelligent life has to look something like us? Isn't that a little We don't. We know we're talking about You're talking about humanoids.

47:17 That's what people see. You go with the flow. Yeah. The data says they're two arms, two legs, a head, and a body. Okay. The guys with three arms and three legs go to Jupiter, you know. Yeah. For their Yeah, it's it's just On the other hand, it may be that we are somebody's colony. That they seeded us here. A penal colony. I'm sure that there has I'm sure there's some debunkers who have that if we're seeing humanoids, we're hallucinating because it's perfectly conceivable that other intelligent life could have a different form than we But not necessarily as Dr. uh, Michael Swords, Professor Emeritus at the University of Michigan, Kalamazoo, as Professor of natural history biology has suggested, if we consider biological that throughout the universe that there would be a common link.

48:18 That there would there potentially be a That they would be humanoid. That's conceivable. shows. It doesn't mean that It doesn't mean there's nobody else out there. Non-humanoid. Doesn't mean that. In fact, if you take a look at all of the history of UFO sightings when they've reported occupants or creatures from inside, historically most of them have been humanoid. There are some cases where they One of them was described as a hairy jelly bean bag. Things like that. But the the testimony from the people who have seen creatures from inside the craft normally report a humanoid. Maybe taller than us, maybe shorter than us, maybe much more robust, but it's usually a humanoid creature. There are some cases where they're robotic in nature. And in Pascagoula, the fellows there described something that really wasn't much in the way of a humanoid, but uh resembled vaguely a human. I knew Steve Schiff, by the way. I was

49:19 on the committee. I was there when we had that. I thought it was a hearing. I'm told now that it wasn't a hearing that it was a briefing. That sometimes it's hard to tell briefings from from from hearings in your in your memory. I know that he was concerned about this and was pushing pushing to to learn to You know, I mentioned before that there were two reasons that two things you could cite that tells you that the Air Force is not being truthful. They're really three. Uh the press release they made. Uh the um the fact that they these people these findings to And the third thing is they were cleaning it up. You know, if it was a weather balloon, none of those things would have been None of those things would have happened. Well, the first one there might have been some confusion wild confusion the first one, but the second two, never. They never sent anything to Wright-Patterson, and they never would

50:20 have cleaned up anything if it had been a weather balloon. When challenged, how do they explain Well, that our witnesses are all lying. That's the only explanation. That's the only explanation. nothing was ever sent to Wright-Patterson and nothing was ever cleaned up? There's the uh FBI telex from the uh FBI bureau in Dallas, Texas that went out the very evening, 6:17 that the weather balloon explanation had just come out from General Raimy's press And it refuted that. The Raimy had canceled the uh continuing flight onto Wright Field. And that stated that based on their telephonic conversation between Wright Field and their FBI office that this belief was not borne out. In other words, the balloon explanation was not what they'd been talking about. It's not what they were hearing. When did they switch from the weather balloon to Mogul? In 1994.

51:20 Ooh, quite a while. Oh, yeah. But that was mainly due to uh again, Congressman Schiff pushing for uh release of the files. They They had to They had to find something that was so highly classified they'd explain why they went to these Herculean efforts, and that was where the the mythology grew that Mogul was so highly classified. Yes, the explanation was uh classified, but the All the experiments going on in New Mexico simply were not. The purpose was classified. Yep. But they used common weather balloons, I understand. Not the material. Standard weather balloons at 20-ft intervals by string. So the only thing classified was that they had some additional instrumentation on it for picking up this radiation stuff. No. No. No. Not at all. Everything Everything on the Mogul arrays launched in New Mexico was off-the-shelf materials. They were weather balloons and they were what they called a Raywin radar target. program that was classified. Yes. The purpose The purpose was classified. I got you. Objective classified. Okay. But they But they said they it was so highly classified the people in New

52:21 Mexico didn't even know the names. Yet when you look at Albert Crary's diary, he uses the name Mogul in there at least twice. So he's well aware of what the name was. So it's it's an ongoing thing that they've done and and and been bought into by an awful lot of the press. Well, it was explained as Project Mogul. It simply does not work. Now the project we was so effective as it was designed to determine if the Soviets from high altitude should have Soviet if they detonate their first atomic bomb, we would pick up a from this acoustic listening device, this microphone. That when they did first detonate an atomic bomb in August of 1949, it wasn't Mogul that picked it up. Mogul failed. We picked it up as far as due to chatter, talk, air sample. air sampling as far as higher radiation levels. Yeah. By and by they get here. So the winds go around. Um why would it surprise anybody that we were trying to determine whether the

53:22 Soviets were detonating a weapon? Why would that surprise people? Why should that be classified? I I was in the Congress for 20 years. I was on the Armed Services Committee for 20 years. I sat in a very large number of briefings. I can classified briefings. I can tell you that I cannot remember a single thing that I was told that I think would give aid and comfort to the enemy. We classify way too much. There's an old axiom that says what's everybody's business is nobody's business. When you classify everything, nothing is classified. And we're pretty darn close to that. I I think in 1947 the thought process was that they didn't we didn't want the Soviets to know that we we had the capability to spy on them to do that. So, that would be But, the fact that we were sending something up there to listen wouldn't mean we had a capability. Listen. And pretty sophisticated when you think about it just being a balloon with a kite. Yeah. Okay. I Thank you all very much. Well, we're 60% of the way through. This has been a very productive first 3 days. Thank you all very much. I have uh

54:29 I've got three brief points to make. One, is there any speculation out there uh why the UFO crashed? Have you heard anything There's a lot of speculation. Share one with us. Uh that it ran into a radar beam. We That sounds a little strange. But, we know that there was a launch scheduled for White Sands. And we know that they those were vacuum tube radars, so they were left on so they wouldn't have to warm up. They were not transistorized or anything like that. So, if pilot and a wingman 40% of the cases involved more than one object seen at a time. Uh if they just happened across this beam, this wasn't searching this way. Just a beam aiming out there, maybe killing a a pigeon or something. you run into the beam and it discombobulates your guidance system,

55:31 your propulsion system. Maybe they go like this. The two pilot and wingman kind of thing. And so that sounds dumb, not sophisticated, if you will, but you have to expect surprises. It's like drive through New Mexico and run into a hail storm and I got bumps all over my car. New Mexico, it's dry. What kind of hail storm? And it was It was big hail storm. there's another point here, too. uh Groves, Manhattan Project Groves, as late as '48 was saying it would take the Russians 8 years before they could build an atomic bomb, because they just don't have the industrial capacity that we do. Took what? There was an attitude in Washington. This is a bunch of dumb peasants. You know, not sophisticated, or maybe they got spies here and there, but nothing to it. And so

56:32 this really shook them up. And also they said, even if they got a they had no means for delivering it. Casually forgetting that we'd left a that they then copied and built a bunch and shocked us when they displayed them in Moscow at their usual dog and pony the atomic bomb end of things was of great concern to the United because there was real concern that once we found out and I one of the scariest memos I've ever seen in all from all the archive is a National Security Council memo in the early 1950 saying the Russians have made more in the past 18 months in the development of nuclear weapons and methods for delivering them that had been expected for 5 years. They were concerned. And wouldn't you be

57:35 under those conditions? Very much so. Very much so. might speculate, you wanted speculation and here's my favorite speculation. They did it on purpose. They crashed on What they wanted They wanted the most way of announcing their presence to the earth and what is more would make us feel easier if we picked up the the the craft and the bodies and realized that they are as as delicate as we are, as fragile as we are. They're non-confrontational. Now we have the information. Their plan failed simply because they crashed at Roswell and then the embargo on the news went down. But I've always liked that theory. I don't subscribe to it, you understand, but I've always liked that theory that they did it on purpose. That's interesting. Please. These might have been clones that were expendable. That's That's more of an American Let me Let me point out uh earlier I don't I can't identify which one of you suggested it, but I think it was more than once.

58:35 What uh what should you do now after the hearings? They We've got two more days of hearings and I wanted to stress that tomorrow we have uh we're hearing uh testimony from people from South America and in the after That's in the morning and in the afternoon we're hearing from people from the rest of of the world who have stepped forward to testify. So this is very important. Up till now it's been pretty much uh homegrown American uh approach and I think it's much more significant from a world point of view. So you're asking what effort they Again, I think I've alluded to this earlier uh but what The Congress I think is a dead letter to accomplish anything in that regard. And I say this with all due respect to the Congress who have a lot of fine people. But I think that the great the best effort we have for bringing visibility to the people of the world of this you're probably not all that familiar

59:36 with uh the various conferences that the UN have. Remember they had the conference on the child, the conference on women. Uh they garner unbelievable attention and a build-up for these conferences. So, I would ask that you use your good offices and certainly we may uh try to approach this that we could go to the United Nations. Now, I don't think we'd have a prayer in the Security Council because it's controlled by us and uh and that just wouldn't happen. But, what would happen in the General Assembly if uh we were to introduce a resolution or if we can't do it as Americans, we could do it maybe through the Brazilian government or the Canadian government. They would introduce a resolution in the General Assembly. I bet you it would pass. They would fund some part of it. The rest of the funding could come from private sources and we would have the most awe-inspiring world event on the subject uh within a

1:00:37 couple three years. And so, I would ask I would suggest that you use your good offices to work with us as individuals or as a group to try to bring this about. And then we're not prejudging anything. We're just feeling that this issue is a addresses the entire civilization of what we are on this planet. Let me Let me thank everybody for today's participation. Obviously, later in the day the number of the people diminish, but uh let me emphasize tomorrow is a very very significant day for a hearing because we are broadening out as Americans to a global identification. So again, these hearings are adjourned.