Citizen Hearing 2013: Truth, Lies & the Cover-up, Part 1

0:05 And we'll begin with the two witnesses are here. If you would be so kind as to repeat after me. I do hereby affirm that I and nothing but the truth to the members of this committee today. you both. And we're going to begin with Dr. Greer. Thank you. It was an honor to be here and I would just like to summarize this subject by saying that I got involved in 1990 when I formed the center for the study of extraterrestrial intelligence and put together some of the early briefings for folks in the administration of President Clinton. This occurred because in 1992, I was leading a team of people where we had a contact event on a beach in Florida. And this got reported into a Department of Defense memo

1:05 or report that was done by John Peterson of the Arlington Institute. And he was friends with a man who became CIA Director Woolsey. CIA Director Woolsey invited us to come to Washington to meet with him and some to discuss this and it was to my great surprise and dismay to learn that the CIA Director had made inquiries into the subject and had not gotten any information. This was also true of President Clinton who through Webster Hubble had also made inquiries. Because of this, we decided to put together an initiative which was called Project Starlight and it was very much involved in the early days with briefing senior people in the military and government. And to my dismay, I have to say at this point that we discovered that there was an extra-constitutional management of the subject which continues to this moment which I find as

2:08 Eisenhower said, an existential threat to our democracy. It's for that reason a few years ago I left my medical career to pursue this and to get the truth out to the public because I feel it's a matter of very pressing concern. I'm a emergency doctor and I always kind of halfway jokingly say I know an emergency when I see one and our planet and our government is in an emergency. During the period around the time we had our meetings with Mr. Rockefeller, I had already set up briefings through the head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Cramer, meeting at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base to which the remains of the Roswell event was sent. They initially did not want to have this meeting. It was ordered by the head of Air Force Intelligence under the orders of J2 which as you know is head of intelligence Joint Staff, Admiral That then

3:09 led to a series of events where we decided what we needed to do is pull together the best military, intelligence and corporate, Lockheed, Northrop and other witnesses as we call them to this issue and begin to do briefings for various members of Congress and people in the administration. From in 1995, I organized and Mr. Rockefeller funded a gathering of the first witnesses at Asilomar near the in near Monterey in California. These were people, they were cosmonauts, they were from Russia, they were astronauts such as Edgar Mitchell, they were people who had worked with Eisenhower and knew of Eisenhower's concern that he had lost control over the secrecy on this issue around 1956 when ironically the Rockefeller Commission reorganized the Department of Defense and the CIA into such a Byzantine mess that to this day these

4:10 projects have not had proper oversight at that level. This then led to us doing some meetings for members of Congress. We did in 1997 and Congressman Dan Burton who was chairman of the House Government Oversight Committee came who along with a number of other congressmen and senators and also following that, we did a what's called a stand-up briefing. Edgar Mitchell and I did the the sixth man to walk on the moon with some of our military sources for then head of intelligence Joint Staff, Admiral Tom To my astonishment when I had this I had sent in advance a briefing similar to the one that I provided here. This is the one I provided for President And what I was astonished and appalled to learn is that the first document that I have in this document is a National Reconnaissance Office document that has actionable intelligence listing project

5:12 code names and code numbers effective as of the early 90s. This Admiral, Tom Wilson looked through this document, identified one of the compartments contacted them and was told and I'm quoting, "Sir, you do not have a need to Now this is the head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And he said to the person, it was a contractor, I won't I cannot disclose which one. It was said that basically "Sir, we will not discuss this with you further." and basically hung up on the Admiral. Now because of that event we then wrote a unless otherwise directed letter. My military advisor "Dr. Greer, what you need to do is do an UNOD letter that goes to all branches of government that says that we have concluded that this subject is being managed in an extra-constitutional fashion. A priori the National Security Act no longer applies to those under those and they are hereby exonerated or freed from them." We wrote

6:12 such a letter to the heads of all agencies. It was never contested and the way unless otherwise directed letter works is that unless you hear back from the agency, you are allowed to proceed with your assessment. And our assessment was that we were going to go forward with these men and women and documents. In fact, there was a senior CIA official who I been asked not to name who's still in the Science Directorate of the CIA who said, "Please do this for our nation." At that point, we began to gather together more of these so-called witnesses, they've been called now. I call them patriots who want to have the truth out. And we then did the 2001 Disclosure Project in this ballroom and we're about at our 12-year anniversary of that and I organized that for the purpose of getting the public informed and also Congress. There were tens of thousands of petitions sent to members of Congress and facts is asking for hearings.

7:13 Unfortunately, a few months later 9/11 happened. The day before 9/11 September 10th that there was a memo from a comment I should say in a speech by then Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld who stated that there was $2.3 trillion unaccounted for in the Department of Defense budget. Let me repeat that number, $2.3 trillion. This was on September 10th prior to that, I was not surprised at that comment because back in 1994, I had a meeting with Mr. D'Amato, not the senator, who was the chief counsel for the Senate Appropriations Committee and he informed me that they felt that there was upwards of or in excess of $100 billion a year missing out of the Treasury going into so-called black projects. Now this is a misnomer. Just so that the committee knows, the proper term in the military

8:13 and intelligence world is an unacknowledged special access project. Now special access projects are projects that of course you have to be read into with various clearances. The unacknowledged ones are ones for which there is no acknowledgement on paper and anyone in the project is ordered not to speak about it under threat of termination with extreme prejudice which is death. My senior military advisor was in one such project. Uh he has not even informed me what it concerned. Uh it was under Admiral Harry It it was a $3 project. This is one project that was So this is not a theory. This is how the deep national security state actually operates that the members of Congress usually are not aware of. in the ensuing years since 2001, we have continued these briefings. We've had greater success in other countries. There are now more than 14 countries

9:15 that have opened their UFO files. We've been very instrumental in this. I've worked with people at the Vatican, the French government. And what is also very exciting is that one of the most important documents in history which we will provide to the committee is a document from the Ministry of Defense of France committing to my organization to engage in a long-term project to make peaceful contact with these quote unquote visitors. This document has not been yet released. I will provide it to the committee and there is great progress being made in other countries. Admiral Maran, who won the Empire prize in France and is an MD as I am and also a PhD physicist and has been an advisor and was an advisor to President Sarkozy and others has been meeting with us and we have been involved with projects in other countries to do this. I help will tell

10:16 you however that as they began to step into this, they were warned off by someone within the national security state saying do not pursue this. And so we went to France about 2 years, 3 years ago and we had an expedition to actually make contact with these extraterrestrial civilizations. And the Admiral later informed us that their radar tracked objects that came over the site at between 100,000 and 200,000 km an hour. Now, what is fascinating about this is the French were not deterred from doing this project with us, but they have to date remained fairly quiet. There is therefore progress being made in other G7 countries. As you know, we have former Minister of Defense of Canada here who is very supportive, the Honorable Paul Hellyer. And what we find however is that the United States has remained a black hole of secrecy.

11:16 Now the reason for this is complex. One of it one of the reasons is inertia. Once you go into an unacknowledged special access project, very hard to bring things out. Number two is that this is the crown jewel in America of the defense industry and the aerospace industry. My uncle was a senior project engineer at Grumman that became Northrop Grumman that put the first man on the moon with the lunar module. He worked on the lunar module. This is part of how I got involved with What I have found through my uncle and other contacts at Lockheed is that we have had since about the mid-1950s operational electromagnetic gravitic devices. Basically, in parlance of the pop culture, anti-gravity devices that are deeply classified and are the next generation beyond rockets and jet aircraft. These are fully operational and not experimental. These have been used very discreetly. We have a

12:16 enormous amount of information on this a facility Norton Air Force Base where we had a Frank Carlucci Secretary of Defense for Ronald Reagan was ushered in there and some people who were with him such as Brad Sorensen have have given us information and actually have helped us provide schematics and drawings for these so-called alien reproduction vehicles. A bit of a misnomer in reality, advanced anti-gravity research began with T. Townsend Brown in 1929. We'll get more into this on Friday. The key point here is that the technologies that would give us a new without oil, without gas, without coal, without nuclear power are extant. They already exist. They've been developed and is a matter of the utmost national security and world peace and justice that we bring these sciences out and

13:18 start a new chapter in the human experience. Thank you. I'd like to address the issue from the from the point of view of a a practicing attorney in these particular areas. I just touched on it briefly earlier in the panel other panel that that when when I was when I was at the Cahill Gordon law firm in New York, we were brought the Pentagon Papers at that time. And Jim Goodale, the chief counsel for the for the New York Times contacted us. I had been working on the briefs for the New York Times because I happened to have initiated the case that had established the right of journalists to protect their confidential news sources when I was at the Harvard Civil Rights Law Review. So I was at the firm and was working on the briefs and Jim Goodale brought the us the information that they had the

14:19 Pentagon Papers. And so it was the first time that I found myself in a situation where I had to kind of try to put myself in the shoes of people that I had the luxury prior to that time of just saying we ought to get it all out. We ought to just reveal everything. We ought to tell all the people have a right to know everything. And I found myself in this peculiar situation of starting to ask questions about what might be in there that we had to try to be careful about Now in that particular case, it wasn't a hard question because you know we we found things about the assassination program of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Phoenix Program. We found out that they were smuggling opium in Southeast Asia to help fund it. We found out about the Nugan Hand Bank that was set up by Theodore Shackley who was the CIA station chief in in Saigon. All the things that we found out about in that particular instance, I felt were criminal conduct. Unlawful conduct and

15:19 it had it had occurred because the Central Intelligence Agency when it was created in 1947 was out of section 5412. The 5412 committee was set up inside the National Security Council to actually oversee covert operations. And for the first time, it actually legitimized the undertaking of covert operations that were not going to be revealed to the Congress. It was before we had an intelligence committee. You remember that Prescott Bush, the United States Senator from Connecticut was the one who would brief in certain Congress people and certain senators about this. So there was this entire kind of extra constitutional process or protocols that began to be undertaken right at the very Finally they set up the 5412 committee inside the National Security Council that oversaw those things. as I said, I had never had access to that until we saw the Pentagon Papers and on reviewing it with Neil Sheehan and the others, I came to the conclusion

16:20 that all of this should be revealed. That these were were criminal activities that that had happened that were all happening outside of the United States, but they were having such dramatic effects inside the United States that I thought they ought to be talked about. But that was my first experience with this. As it as it proceeded, I I ended up becoming chief counsel in the Karen Silkwood case, the woman that was killed out in Oklahoma at the nuclear site out there. And during our investigations of that, we discovered that that 98 of bomb grade plutonium were were being smuggled out of the Kerr-McGee nuclear facility, the reprocessing plant. And we discovered that it was actually being transported secretly to Israel. You know so I touched on that old third rail. There it was and we went and we briefed a Peter Stockton. He was the chief investigator for John John Dingell was chairing the House Subcommittee on Energy and the

17:21 Environment and because of the oversight authority they had over nuclear facilities environmentally, we briefed them and told them all about this and they actually set up a they tasked a a real-time National Security Agency satellite to actually monitor the smuggling of these materials and actually track them onto being put on charter oil company ships and then boarded by Mossad and brought to Israel. And they and at that time they were under the condition that they had to share some of the special nuclear materials, 98% pure bomb grade That they had to share them with the Shah of Iran. So that they actually were providing 98% pure bomb grade plutonium, reprocessed plutonium to the Shah of Iran and to South Africa, the Afrikaner government. Now because of my discovery of that, it was a clear absolute blatant violation of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty.

18:21 And so I I briefed the judge. We had the judge Tice, Frank G. Tice was the chief counsel was the judge on that case. I I provided a a memorandum to him, an affidavit to him explaining the whole thing. And the following Monday he contacted me and said the Central Intelligence Agency had contacted him and wanted to have an in camera ex parte meeting with him. And he met with them and immediately dismissed one of the counts in our case in the Karen Silkwood case, the whole her death on the highway. The whole interfering with her right to travel on the highway, her First Amendment right to meet with the New York Times because David Burnham was waiting for her at the Holiday Inn to to receive the documents showing that these these was 40 lbs 98% pure bomb grade plutonium was missing. And when we gave that information to to Congressman the Congressman, nobody ever talked about it after that.

19:22 They called they called Stan Turner in. They brought him downstairs, put him under oath, challenged him about this. And the only reason I knew about it is because Peter Stockton told us about it. But so it became obvious again to me at that point that there were secrets that virtually everybody agreed within the political circles had to be kept secret. And this supplying our supplying in complete violation of nuclear nonproliferation treaty 98% bomb grade plutonium to Israel was one of those things. And so that I realized that at that time there were these there was this dimension such as the Dr. Greer has talked about. There are levels of classification that are way beyond people in the Congress, way beyond us as civilians, but I spent a lot of time looking into this whole process and as you know what I I was the one that filed the original Iran-Contra case that got the special prosecutor appointed. We uncovered all the smuggling of the weapons that were going on, the cocaine smuggling operations that were going on. It became clear to me that everybody knew about this.

20:24 That all kinds of people knew about this going on, but the citizens didn't. And as I tried to bring information to some people in Congress and the Senate etc. Talked with Tip O'Neill about all of this and and we we as I discovered all this stuff was going on, I was then later contacted by Dr. John Mack as I told you to represent him and I was aware of the fact that there was this realm of of ultimate secrecy that existed, but I realized that there was a a classification above everything that I'd ever seen that was that was cosmic a cosmic top secret. There's a whole category of cosmic top secret that has to do with this particular category. And that there's information in there about contacts with the with the these beings that were recovered from Roswell a living being one particular living being that they brought to Wright-Patterson that they didn't know what to do with the with the being. They

21:26 didn't know how to take care of the being. They had to keep the being isolated. They were afraid of potential contamination. And I've I was challenged at that point to try to determine whether or not I would reveal these things to everyone. I kept trying to have contact with people inside the intelligence community to say look at if there's something that you think I ought to know that would convince me that the American people somehow shouldn't know about tell me about it, will you? Because if you're not going to tell me about it, I can tell you I'm going after it. And I'm going to be going after it in a context that may make it automatically available to anybody once I get it. And and only a couple times was I ever approached and said to stay away from these things. Well, that's not an that's not an answer. You know, just to stay away from it. And so that what what I've done is I've I'm just coming to you today to tell you that with my experience directly as one of the attorneys in the Pentagon Papers case, I was in F. Lee Bailey's office when we

22:26 did the Watergate burglary. It was our office that got McCord to write the letter to to Judge Sirica blowing the whistle on the Watergate The Karen Silkwood case with the smuggling of the plutonium, the Iran-Contra case with all of that the smuggling of cocaine that was going on. So but nothing nothing matches this Nothing comes close to matching this issue because the reality of it is is that that because whatever this extraterrestrial intelligence is, they obviously the belief that somehow we shouldn't be just told right straight out right. As people have said, you know, why don't they land on the White House lawn and just tell us? So there is obviously some type of consensus that exists at the highest levels of the security of cosmic top secret clearance in our government. And and when when I asked Gorbachev about this because I was legal counsel to the State of the World Forum for Gorbachev and Senator Baker at the end of the Cold

23:27 War, he told me flat out that these things existed. And that they'd known that these existed and they were in communication with the United States government about this. And that so what I'm saying is that we're that we we need to as citizens be insistent upon finding out about this unless and until somebody communicates information to us that makes sense as to why it is that people all shouldn't know about this. And they haven't told me that yet. And so until they do, I'm going to continue to try to find out everything I can about it and share it with people who've had the kind of responsible positions that you have had in your lives and still have in your lives. Because the reality is you still have political capital. Whether you're 87 years old or 39 years old or whatever your ages are now that you still have political capital that can can that can effectuate a change. And that for for you to go collectively to sit down with certain members of Congress or certain people together to say look,

24:28 this is what we know and we want to act responsibly. Can you please help us act responsibly, but we are going to act in any event. And that's how you will find out, I Mr. Cameron. As I explained this morning, my name is Grant Cameron. Private investigator for 38 years. I've most of my time looking at what the highest levels of US government, military and intelligence agencies know about the UFO phenomena. This afternoon I'm speaking about the Rockefeller initiative. My testimony is based on 1,000 pages of documents that were released to me in 2001 by the Clinton White House in response to an FOIA for UFO files. It should be noted here that like the documents you're talking about this morning, the Roswell documents that

25:28 these documents have now disappeared. Both the National Archives and the Clinton Library both maintain they do not have the documents. For example, I filed an FOIA with the Clinton Library. I received about a thousand pages of UFO documents which included an an awful lot of material that Steven Greer had said to the The thousand pages that I'm going to talk about right now were not part of the disclosure and both maintained that they don't have them. They are on my website, President's UFO website and basically what the documents show, these FOIA documents show that billionaire businessman Laurence Rockefeller had approached the White House to get the government to disclose the truth behind the UFO There is different Rockefellers. There's Nelson Rockefeller who was the political guy who ran for government. There was David who was the money guy and Laurence Rockefeller was the sort of the humanitarian, had a philosophy degree from Princeton and was very interested in this phenomena. Rockefeller also had other meetings

26:30 outside the White House. And one example was with Republican Steven Horn, Republican from from California from the Government Reform and Oversight Committee related to government secrecy. Rockefeller's request for UFO disclosure was dealt with in the White House by the president's science advisor Dr. Jack To prepare for the first meeting in March of 1993 with Rockefeller, Dr. Gibbons requested a UFO briefing from the CIA. That briefing was tasked at the CIA to Dr. Ronald Pandolphi. So if you want to know, that's probably the guy you should be phoning. Dr. Ronald Pandolphi who's been identified by the New York Times as the top scientist in the CIA and a man who is rumored inside the UFO community as the agency expert on UFOs and a man that over the last 20 years has interacted with many researchers inside the UFO community. As the CIA has a public position of no UFO involvement, Pandolphi gave the job

27:31 of writing the White House briefing which he knew would become public because Laurence Rockefeller was involved, he gave that briefing job to a private UFO researcher Mr. Bruce Maccabee who had done a couple of UFO lunchtime talks at the CIA headquarters. The briefing therefore became not an official briefing on the subject, but just a personal opinion of one researcher inside the UFO community. exerted great pressure on the Clinton White House threatening threatening to to write an open letter demanding UFO disclosure from President Clinton and to make this demand public in full page ads in all the major newspapers in the United States. Under this pressure, Dr. Gibbons agreed to try to get some sort of disclosure on the UFO subject. He asked Mr. Rockefeller to pick one case that could be declassified and then all the rest of the cover-up material could be dealt with. Mr. Rockefeller picked the 1947 UFO crash at Roswell as the case to

28:32 investigate. And that is one of the reasons why there was a reinvestigation of the Roswell crash by the US Air Force in 1994. The US Air Force did not decide to do it on their own. At the same time the White House was green lighting a reinvestigation of Roswell, the the Government Accountability Office was also doing a reinvestigation of the Roswell crash. That investigation was initiated by New York or New Mexico Congressman Steven Schiff who ordered the GAO investigation after his request for information were stonewalled by Clinton's first Secretary of Defense Les Aspin. The GOA study, however, was quite limited. Only FOIA replies on the Roswell crash were used. Nothing was found except that a bunch of key Roswell documents from the time of the crash that would have indicated what had happened were Therefore, there no conclusion was

29:33 The US Air Force reinvestigation discovered a way to bypass the actual reinvestigation of the crash. Rather than following the testimony of many of the witnesses that will be appearing here this week, Uh, simply published a final report stating that the whole 1947 crash event had been caused by the launch of a Mogul balloon designed to monitor a possible Soviet nuclear test. In 1995 in Belfast, Northern Ireland, President Clinton challenged the official US Air Force Roswell report, which had no discussion of the reported alien bodies. In a speech that he gave, he stated, "As far as I know, an alien spacecraft did not crash in Roswell, New Mexico. But, if the United States Air Force did recover alien bodies, they didn't tell me about it either, and I want to know." This open challenge in Northern Ireland forced the US Air Force to do a second Roswell crash report. The US Air Force

30:34 released this report to a room of laughing reporters as they described how 6-ft tall wooden dummy dummies dressed in Air Force uniforms in 1953 somehow explained what people had described as small 4-ft gray creatures in 1947, including one alien that was still alive. The report was the Air Force's lame attempt intended to answer Clinton's challenge about the alien bodies mentioned in Belfast. Without any official record of the event, Laurance Rockefeller um, did sit down with Bill and Hillary Clinton, and the most of those documents were provided for by Steven Greer, who provided them to Laurance Rockefeller. Uh, they met at the Wyoming uh, JY Ranch, which was controlled by the Rockefellers. Rockefeller briefed both Bill and Hillary Clinton on the best available evidence for UFOs and for the need to make that information available to the American people. Uh, the mention of Hillary's name in the

31:36 1995 briefing at the uh, Rockefeller Ranch is important because the Rockefeller initiative documents that I recovered show that Hillary played a key role in the Rockefeller White House initiative on UFOs. There are two key documents. In November 19 November the 1st, 1995, there's a letter from Rockefeller's to the President's science adviser, and in that it points out that Hillary and her staff have been helping Laurance Rockefeller edit a letter of UFO disclosure to the President. The letter was called Lifting Secrecy of Information about Extraterrestrial Intelligence as part of the current classification review. And what was happening was Laurance was sending this document to various people, and he would threaten to send the letter to the President if he didn't get cooperation, and various people helped him edit the letter. Hillary was one of the people who helped let edit this letter on UFO

32:36 disclosure. In a second 1996 letter from Rockefeller to the President's science adviser, the in the letter he clearly spells out the information is that is coming from Rockefeller to the science adviser to President Clinton, and from President Clinton's science adviser to Rockefeller, all that material is going through Hillary Clinton's First Lady's In 2016, the initiative faded out after the the briefing at the ranch, and Rockefeller moved on to fund other UFO research activities. Thank you. Oh, yeah. 2006 1996, pardon me. Mr. Huneeus. If if you'll just apply just need to apologize. I have I have a meeting at the Justice Department like at 3:00, and I'll be gone till 5:00, and I'll be back. I apologize, but I just I have to go, okay? You've all been there, I think. Can we get Can we get it? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. See you

33:41 Okay. Well, I will be repeating obviously some of the material that has been covered by some of the other panelists, but this is my prepared statement. Uh, throughout most of the 1990s, a significant amount of UFO-related research was funded by the billionaire philanthropist Laurance S. Rockefeller. Yet, with a few exceptions, this was mostly unknown by the general public, the media, and even the majority of the ufological community. It was also ignored by the mainstream world, who chose to ignore the unconventional side of one of the Rockefellers. His long official biography posted online by the Rockefeller Archive Center doesn't mention any of his of his UFO, paranormal, New Age, and consciousness-oriented interests, and neither did the long obituaries published by The New York Times, The Washington Post, and other mainstream publications when he died in 2004 at the age of 94. And yet, these activities were not small

34:43 and inconsequential part of the philanthropist's life. He seemed to have spent quite a bit of time thinking, meeting people, and funding research in the period going from the late 1980s to 2000. Without access to his financial records, there's no way of knowing how much money he spent, but it must be around a few million dollars at the Although I never met him personally, I know something about it because I had the opportunity of working first hand in one of Laurance Rockefeller-sponsored projects, the UFO briefing document, The Best Available Evidence, a special report published in December 1995, sent to the White House, selected members of Congress, and VIPs, which is now available for free at the openminds.tv Rockefeller's activities, in fact, went beyond funding into actual lobbying at the highest level. President Bill Clinton and the First Lady and current secretary Well, not not no longer current secretary of state, Hillary

35:44 Rodham Clinton. Long before the term exopolitics was in vogue, Laurance Rockefeller was practicing it in the White House from 1993 to 1996. This has come to be known as the Rockefeller UFO initiative, a multi-pronged campaign to get the US government to release sensitive information on UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence. The initiative is documented in hundreds of pages of correspondence released a few years ago by the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, OSTP, under the Freedom of Information Act. These documents can be accessed at the Paradigm Research Group website, and also, of course, Grant Cameron has obtained lots of additional documents. I'm enclosing a long article describing all the various facets of the so-called Laurance Rockefeller UFO initiative published in the Open Minds magazine number six, February-March 2011. It is not necessary to go into the biographical background of Mr. Rockefeller in this short presentation,

36:46 except to note that he was one of the original grandsons of the founder of the dynasty, John D. Rockefeller, that he was obviously extremely wealthy and well-connected, that he had studied philosophy at Princeton and was quite a visionary even in business, where he seemed to be always ahead of the curve, backing aeronautics in the '30s, electronics in the '60s, and conservation and environmental efforts throughout his long career. Although the mainstream uh, media chose to ignore it, his intense interest in UFOs and ET issues in the '90s fits very well this pattern. Mr. Rockefeller backed many UFO-related projects in the period between the late '80s and 2000. But, for the purpose of this hearing, we will concentrate on his political initiatives in these areas. Laurance Rockefeller's first forays into ufology started sometime in the late '80s through Dr. Cecil B. Scott Jones, a

37:47 parapsychologist and former US Navy commander, who had worked as naval attaché in Asia and at the Naval Scientific and Technical Intelligence Center. Between 1985 and 1991, Jones was special assistant to Senator Claiborne Pell, the powerful Rhode Island Democrat chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who was deeply interested in parapsychology, and who probably many of you met personally. Senator Pell was also friends with Laurance Rockefeller, and both served on the board of the Human Potential Foundation, a small think tank launched in 1989 in Vienna, Virginia by Jones to conduct, quote, research into all conditions of humankind, physiological, psychological, and spiritual. Many of the papers released by the White House OSTP come from Scott Jones, who knew Dr. John Gibbons, a physicist who worked for many years as director of the Office of Technology Assessment for the

38:48 US Congress, and was appointed in 1993 by the Clinton administration to direct the OSTP. What was the exact turning point of Laurance Rockefeller's evolution from a general interest in consciousness studies into the specific area of UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence is still unclear. But, the end of the Cold War and the arrival in Washington of a younger generation represented by Bill and Hillary Clinton are key factors. He felt the time was ripe for a new and fresh approach into an area that had been previously dominated by a Cold War mentality. Rockefeller recruited for these efforts a long-time associate, Henry L. Diamond, an environmental attorney from Washington, D.C., whose links to the family went all the way back to the 1960s when he worked with Laurance in his conservation activities. Diamond also knew John Gibbons, and so he was the right person to make the first contact with the OSTP chief when he sent him a memorandum on March 29,

39:50 1993 requesting a a meeting. And I'm quoting now the first paragraph. Lawrence S. Rockefeller, who is a leading US conservationist, businessman, and philanthropist is anxious to have a brief meeting with Dr. Gibbons to discuss the potential availability of government information about unidentified flying objects and extraterrestrial life. As one who has had a long-time interest in environmental and spiritual issues, Mr. Rockefeller, with other leading citizens, is planning to make an approach to President Clinton on this The details of Rockefeller's White House lobbying effort are described in my article and also on the documents themselves posted by PRG. We know from the record that following the initial meeting with Gibbons and subsequent correspondence, the government decided to constrict the more general issue of UFOs into the specific and famous UFO crash of July 1947 in Roswell, New Mexico. This incident will

40:52 be discussed in detail at a later session during this hearing. After ignoring it for decades, the Air Force had then taken the decision to finally make a big public statement, which took place in 1994 with its official report that explained or debunked the incident as a one-stop secret balloon project to detect the Soviets' first atomic bomb test code-named Project Mogul. This derailed to a great extent the initial Rockefeller effort at the White House, but didn't stop him to try a different approach. By 1995, Laurance Rockefeller switched his UFO uh related coordinator from Scott Jones to Marie Galbraith, the well-connected wife of investment banker Evan Galbraith, who was ambassador to France during the Reagan administration, Republican candidate for New York governor in 1994, and chairman of William Buckley's National Review, among other things.

41:52 Marie Galbraith and Sandra S. Wright, another well-connected high society lady who ran the BSW Foundation, had come up with the idea of preparing a comprehensive UFO briefing document that could be sent to members of Congress and VIPs in general. The original draft was written by Don Berliner, an aviation journalist and long-time ufologist with the Fund for UFO Research, FUFOR, in the Washington And I was brought in to help edit and expand the document from a small office ran by Marie Galbraith in New York's Madison Avenue. The final briefing document was finished in December 1995, but sent out in early It was Rockefeller's and Galbraith's idea to give the copyright to the UFO Research Coalition, a consortium of the three main American UFO organizations, MUFON, that is the Mutual UFO Network, CUFOS, Center for UFO Studies, and FUFOR, the Fund for UFO Research, whose directors endorsed the document. Copies

42:54 of the report were sent to Dr. Gibbons at the White House, some members of Congress and VIPs worldwide, but there was no well-connected effort to disseminate the document and as a result, its political impact was The one exception was France due to Marie Galbraith's extensive connections there from her US Embassy days back in the 1980s. Copies of the UFO briefing document were sent from President Chirac down the food chain in the French government. We had received in fact many interesting documents and reports from the official French UFO group at the National Center for Space Studies, CNES, the French equivalent to NASA, then COMETA and now GEIPAN. And one of the briefings' case histories was the famous UFO landing case in Trans-en-Provence in 1981. I will have I will have more to say about the French official UFO investigation at a later

43:54 session in this hearing. There can be little doubt that the UFO briefing document became the model for the COMETA report, an important study conducted by a group of retired French generals and intelligence officers led by Major General Denis Letty. In their final 1999 report titled UFOs and Defense, What Should We Prepare For?, the COMETA authors praised highly, quote, the leading US personality Marie Galbraith, who was supported both morally and financially by Laurance Rockefeller. That's from the COMETA Marie Galbraith was also the coordinator for a number of separate UFO related projects funded by the philanthropist. By 1997, Laurance Rockefeller dropped the political UFO initiatives and concentrated instead on the scientific A major meeting, closed to both the public and the press, was held from September 29 to October 3, 1997 at the

44:55 Pocantico Conference Center in Tarrytown, New York. The chief coordinator and author of the final report was Dr. Peter A. Sturrock, an astrophysicist from Stanford University, who also directed for many years the Society for Scientific Exploration, SSE. The idea was to gather a group of professional scientists, many of them from Europe, and have scientifically trained UFO researchers present the best evidence to a panel of neutral scientists. The presentations touched upon all the main scientific areas, photographic evidence, luminosity estimates, radar evidence, the Hessdalen project, and this is a place in Norway where unexplained lights have been recorded for many years, vehicle interference, aircraft equipment malfunction, apparent gravitational and or inertial effects, ground traces, injuries to vegetation, physiological effects on witnesses, and um analysis of

45:58 You can consult Professor Sturrock's final report on the scientific conference, The UFO Enigma: A New Review of the Physical Evidence. It was published by Warner Books in 1999 and it's also available on the SSE's website, the complete report, for all the details and data. Rockefeller seemed very satisfied with the results of this event and and he even wrote the book's forward, which became his only statement on UFOs written for publication. By 2000, Laurance Rockefeller reached the age of 90 and was concentrated on his private family affairs. For all practical purposes, the Rockefeller UFO initiative and funding, whether scientific, political, or philosophical, was over. But his contribution to the field was certainly extensive. We hope that other philanthropists will follow on his path and try to solve the mystery of UFOs. Both the political and scientific approaches are valid and necessary in order to understand the

46:59 complex ramifications of this phenomenon. Thank you. Thank you. I believe we're a little over time, so how much time will each panelist Six minutes. All right. And uh I will follow in the footsteps of my co-chair and uh wave my turn till the end. So, Mr. Bartlett. Thank you very much. Uh Dr. Greer, you mentioned that there was a very large amount of money that could not be accounted for in the Pentagon. Uh the Pentagon still cannot be audited. They hope that they may have books in several years in the future that could be audited. They will not be. This is hard to believe that in today's world that uh and and you know, they spend about half of all the money we vote to spend in the And we don't spend 1% of our time in the Congress talking about this expenditure.

48:02 There's a day or so once a year when we debate this on the floor and uh and pass this bill. And this spends about half of all the money that we vote uh to spend. Uh it's just incredible to me that it's been this long and they still do not have books that can be that can be Uh you mentioned anti-gravity devices. I'd like to know a little bit more about that. I know that this is one of the things that Stephen Hawkings is trying to harmonize uh uh relativity, uh gravity, and so forth. Many people believe that he may be the best mind in a millennium. The Britisher who lives Yeah, right. Well, I think that actually there are there are two tracks in physics. There's the track you'd find at MIT and there's the track you'd find at the Naval Research Labs. I'm friends with the third highest ranking scientist uh and some other folks uh as as well as some physicists down near the Redstone Arsenal and the Marshall Space Flight Center. I can assure you that they have

49:02 used very high voltage systems at low input of power, meaning low uh uh total energy consumption, to create what's called a Poynting vector into space. This is uh tapping what's called the zero-point energy field, the the renowned uh defense journalist Nick Cook wrote wrote a book about this called The Hunt for Zero Point. And without getting into much into the physics of this, um I will just say that studies on this matter began actually in the 1920s with T. Townsend Brown who later became key to the RAND Corporation. Uh but also I I should point out that in Germany the Claus Frohlich experiment which we'll we'll go into on Friday uh using a crystalline structures and now we're using nano crystalline materials like you find in in uh to create a electromagnetic field if you will around an object that gives it lift. And there are classified aspects

50:05 of some of our known aircraft I talked to Admiral Wilson about this such as the B-2 stealth that involve this. But the ones that look like they're circular so-called flying saucers. The there have been prototypes of this for a number of years and about October 1954 from sources I have who have been in what's called the vault at the National Security Agency and and other facilities uh we really figured out gravity control. And which means that we can do lift systems um such as the ones that people report in UFOs. like to reserve enough time to ask you about something else that that that you mentioned that that really concerns me. Mr. Sheehan mentioned necessary secrets. Right. Uh things that we keep from the American I really am conflicted in this area. I will acknowledge that you may argue that there are necessary secrets that there are black projects you didn't characterize them that way but some of

51:06 these top top secret things that you're talking about above top secret are we it's it's in black world. I've had several briefings in a special ship skiff on on on black projects. You know if you can do this then for the good of the American people you can ignore the Constitution to do good And we do that. We do ignore the Constitution to do good things. Uh we're ignoring the Constitution to do all of the welfare we do because it's not an article one does not enumerated power. We're ignoring the Constitution to do all of the health care that we do. Yes, sir. We're ignoring the Constitution to all of the education that we do cuz none of those three things where we spend a huge amount of money are specific enumerated powers in Article 1 Section 8 and both the 9th Amendment and the 10th Amendment pretty clearly say if you can't find it there you can't do it. Now my conflict is that where I whereas I recognize that there may be necessary secrets.

52:06 You if you extrapolate from this then you can ignore the Constitution to do good things. If today you ignore the Constitution to do bad do good things tomorrow you can ignore the Constitution to do bad things. think that's where we are today and I think this is what Dwight Eisenhower President Eisenhower said in his last address when he said beware the military industrial complex and if I might say so I think that the withholding from the public of this information is uh not only a crime against humanity it is actually causing us to stay on a petrodollar system that is destroying the environment. I don't I think most people miss the reason. I mean my meeting with with the CIA Director Woolsey the only thing he wanted to know is why won't they tell me about this? And the same thing with Lord Hill-Norton the Minister of Defense of Great Britain. And I said sir the reason they don't is that you're good folk and you would not go along with criminal secrecy illegal secrecy that is withholding sciences technologies that would give us a civilization without oil. Now but

53:08 that's a a multi-trillion dollar problem and I think we've reached the point where the tail is wagging the dog. The special interest and the influence from corrupting I'm going to use the word corrupting influences within the national security state ties right straight into the macroeconomic order and the petrodollar system. The secrecy isn't because people are going to hurl themselves off the bridge into the Potomac River because we're not alone in the universe. 65% of the public believe there's intelligent life out there. Over half the public believe we've been visited. 43% believe they're here and visiting us currently. And these are in recent polls. The bigger issue is why would we be keeping this secret? And there is a document that I have from the Federation of American Scientists released two years ago that there are patents that have been seized under the National Security Act. Dr. Greer we have to end your Yes. your response. Uh and it is uh uh uh Senator Gravel.

54:12 I won't take my full time because some of these questions need to be elaborated like Dr. Greer was doing. But let me add uh because of our view that we are we want to get the Congress to do Uh there's a ruling of the Supreme Court and my colleague would be interested in about the constitutionality of it. I was prosecuted by the Nixon and my defense which Danny Sheehan is very knowledgeable about was the speech and debate clause of Constitution. I released the Pentagon Papers as a sitting United States That ruling was finally rendered in It was a 9-4 that still left me exposed because I published the papers outside of the Senate in addition to releasing them in the Senate. But it was a unanimous decision that I had the right to reveal any that I had knowledge of to the public

55:14 and could not be questioned in any other domain of the government. Now that is the law of the land since 1972 and it hasn't been changed. You know there's the law and there's the law that's sanctified by the Supreme Court decision. And so this element of the Constitution is rock solid and yet when we turn to the Congress oh why don't they you know they they first they're they're being lied to but what little information you get like the the various on secrecy and defense I mean they have bodies of knowledge that they should just as a matter of course release to the American people and that would begin that would begin to to alter this paradigm that we accept as a nation that we can be lied to by our politicians wantonly and nothing is ever done about it. That's one comment I wanted to add. Uh and I want to add to him also he was

56:14 saying it but I want to say it more clearly the Defense Department has never been auditable. You can't audit it and it's wishful thinking that you think that they'll ever get to that because it's convenient to not audit what's going on. The other is I want to add to Sheehan's comments which of course was I'm sure revelation to a lot of people that here Israel we shipped this nuclear capability to Israel and one of their task was to share it with the Shah. Well the the adding to that is we gave the Shah an experimental nuclear reactor which is in Tehran today. And the plan for that reactor was to be able to build bombs that would be under the control of the Shah or under the control of the United States. What had happened after revolution and this is what most Americans don't know right now is that it was the Ayatollah Khomeini who made the decision that that reactor

57:14 would not be used for any nuclear devices bomb making devices. It was an internal decision by the supreme the Imam that they would not do that because the Quran did not sanction weapons of mass destruction. And now when you get to take by American media that oh my god they're they're searching for the bomb we tried to give them the bomb under the Shah and they're the ones that decided they don't want it it's I just want to add that. Those those are the two points that I wanted to make. I'll yield back the balance my time because I can't think of an intelligent question I could ask to the intelligent testimony we just had. That's nice. Congresswoman Kilpatrick. Thank you very much and again thank you for your testimony. You're absolutely right Senator. Um I I think today's whole experience has been one of intelligence um higher than we're normal

58:16 in our society. Uh maybe this room itself and our subject matter may have something to do with that but we appreciate your service. Thank you. Going back to the millions of dollars that are missing or unauditable or missing in the defense budget over several years. Uh 2.3 Dr. Greer I think was the number you gave trillion. trillion 2.3 trillion. And that's over several years. I know most of you know at the table that we have also passed an intelligence budget in the Congress. All intelligence matters are funded in that budget. And as members of Congress we don't debate it. We don't know what's about them number or any of that because quote it's over our classified. Members of Congress are also classified to a point when we come in office as you know I'm sure we take an oath and sign for the intelligence uh level that we can hear. Of course there's super super intelligence that we don't and I think we're discussing much of that today which is where the money is and where that intelligence budget

59:17 has gone. Uh you mentioned emergency and everything we talked about today and my newspaper person came up to me this I told him I'll speak to him on Friday after I learn more but they still keep Um I I I only to unless I know something. I'm trying to learn so I don't have much to say. Um, you mentioned that it's an emergency and it's emergency now. Several other speakers this morning mentioned that they're here. We're not the only ones here and that God is the universe. I just believe there's got to be a whole lot other things that we don't yet know and will soon, hopefully. How is there an emergency? What happens if we do nothing? What ought we do? How should we do it? Well, I I think that there is a wonderful Chinese saying, "Unless we change directions, we're likely to end up where we're going." So, the point is if you look at the trend lines of where our civilization's going, the intractable mess we have in the Middle East. And of course, when we say national security interests in the Middle East, it means I mean, as pointed out, Israel has about 2 or 300 thermonuclear weapons. They can

1:00:19 take care of themselves. And the why are we still on oil? Uh, I think we're on oil because and and coal and nuclear power because there has been an active longitudinal long-term suppression of really advanced sciences and technologies. And and I think that this has created both a geopolitical emergency and a geophysical emergency. Uh, whether you believe in global warming or not, you cannot have 7 billion people burning oil and gas and coal indefinitely. What are going to solutions be? Now, my farm in Virginia runs on solar. Luckily, I was I guess affluent enough to put in a huge solar farm. It's the biggest private solar farm in Virginia. But, it's it's not practical for most people. Whereas, there are advanced technologies dealing with the physics of zero-point energy so that every home and car would have a generator pulling energy out of the fabric of space-time and you would never have to burn another drop of oil. there? Why are we not doing that? because there has been active uh,

1:01:20 suppression of this information as Mr. Sheehan reported, uh, there are people on my team who have been threatened. Uh, there is a man working on one of these devices for my group. We provided some grant funding. And about two year two or three years ago, a former CIA director, who I don't want to talk about, with a group of people went down there and threatened him and his wife if he didn't stop. So, this is a man who's attached to AT&T and does contract work for the CIA. He had been He had been cleared to do it for us. Wait, doctor. If people have been What was that word? He was threatened. Uh, that's close to death, near death, excised, eliminated, or whatever that Right. Why then are we talking today? And why how are you so healthy today? And no one's threatened you or you just strong? I'm strong and we have a lot of good friends and and you know, there are folks, uh, you know, people mentioned Dr. Ron Pandolphi. He, you know, at the CIA. And I did spend a lot of time with with Laurence Rockefeller. There are a lot of people who have supported what

1:02:21 we're trying to do. Um, there are a lot of people who are opposed to what we're trying to do. There is a committee, used to be called Majestic, that deals with this issue. Uh, and I will give the the committee a document, this documentary referred to. And uh, the the the fourth the second one down is Cosmic Ops. And the third one is Magic Ops and Maji Ops. Are you Are you not aware how important that would be if we had it in front of us, which is my point I'm going We're going to get it for you. We need all of it. We need your testimony. It helps us prepare. We can have And when you refer to things, we can see it as well as hear it and it's internalized better. Right. We And we have we have a computer disk we'll give each of you that has all of this. What's key about the document, however, is that these compartmented operations that are known to exist, uh, work mainly in the science and technology area. And this particular document is from the National Reconnaissance Office. Uh, and it was a security breach warning for Nellis Air Force Base. And of course, we would only need things that we can see legally, you know, with whatever classifications we

1:03:21 have. You may have something that you cannot share. well, no, I don't. I actually everything that we have, even if we have determined as I said through the unless otherwise directed order that we sent out in letter, that all of this information is All right. Because we have determined that the secrecy has been maintained outside of proper constitutional Look, I met personally with the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency for a very long period of time. Okay. He was given information, actionable intelligence. And he along as well as Admiral Wilson were And this this man is General Patrick Hughes. Many of you may have known him. He was denied access. That has got to be illegal. You cannot be denying senior people who are in the chain of command. Okay, we have to stop there cuz my minute's up. But, just thank you for that. And we want to work with you. We want the information in writing as well as verbally. And I yield back the balance of my You'll get all of this. This is all for you. Thank you very much.

1:04:22 Congressman Cook. Yes, I'd like to continue with Dr. Greer for a moment. Um, you talked about 14 countries that have opened up UFO files. and and I take it that these are probably similar to files that the United States has that the United States government has refused to open up. Am I right in in that implication? To clarify, the those are the documents that would be available within those governments that are not in an unacknowledged special access project. Great Britain, for example, has recently opened up a large number of files. But, those are the ones that are can be obtained by a FOIA type officer. Same thing with France. There are corollaries to these unacknowledged projects in some of these other countries, which we have discovered. Great Britain, certainly. Canada, certainly. And also France. But, I think that what we have to understand is that they have at least been making the attempt to show interest and support for

1:05:22 bringing out this this information. I think in South America, we've even seen uh, support with with some governments having offices in their ministries of defense investigating this and releasing information almost in real time. So, I think we're seeing more disclosure in in some of these other countries. The United States has been the most recalcitrant. Well, you have you've indicated as we just talked about the $2.3 trillion that you said is completely missing from the Department of Defense budget over what, a couple decades? Well, uh, Secretary Defense Rumsfeld did comment on how long. Now, Secretary Defense Cohen, I think most of you may have known him during the Clinton years. He, you know, he was given information also from Gordon Cooper, one of our witnesses who was an astronaut. And he also said, "Look, I've looked into this and there's a great deal of activity, but they won't share it with me. I'm the Secretary Defense." Well, well, Uh, so yeah, but that $2.3 trillion, we don't know quite

1:06:23 where it's going. Okay, but when you say that we don't know quite where it's going, is it is part of that or all of that or some of that the unacknowledged special access processes that you talk about? Project yet, USAPs. Unacknowledged special access projects. Projects. And those yes, that by definition, if the Secretary Defense So, a lot of that $2.3 trillion is those. Over several decades. And we estimate it's between at this point a hundred billion and two hundred billion dollars a year. That would give us universal health care, by the way. I'm not defending any of this part, but I'm not I'm not defending this aspect of it, but if $2.3 trillion is in fact the unacknowledged special access projects, is that what you're saying? Apparently, if the Secretary Greer Are you saying it could be? You just don't know. I we think it is. And in fact, I believe that's what he was saying. Okay, well, if we have of years, many years. If we have counted

1:07:23 in those projects things like uh, anti-gravity machines, things like space elevators that are based on anti-gravity research and magnetism and electricity that goes far beyond any of us are really totally aware of right now, or some may be. Or I can think of a number of things, here's my question. Yes. And I want you to really give me your best possible feeling on Is some of that clearly, legitimately withheld for national security reasons? Yes, in fact, I was approached by some folks when after Obama was elected to support an initiative uh, to privately bring out the lifter or electromagnetic gravitic. And I said, "Because they could become a delivery system." And I was meeting with a Air Force Colonel at the time. I I think that some of that needs to be looked at very carefully.

1:08:23 However, the stationary energy generation systems that would get us off oil, gas, and coal tomorrow, Yeah. uh, those should be brought out. So, I think they're So, I think I think there you do have to have a very I'm I'm saying this and I know there are people who probably in the disclosure movement are going to be appalled by by what I'm about to say. Is that we do not yet live in a world where everyone on the planet should have a lifter and transfer transportation system that could get us from here to Paris in two or three minutes. And I think that those sort of technologies obviously have weapons delivery applications. Uh, however, the part of the technology that deals with energy generation, uh, should come out and and has also been suppressed for reasons mainly of macroeconomic stability. Because, as you know, part of the national security discussion has always been, "These would be highly disruptive technologies." To which I say, "Well, good. You want to be disrupted now or later when we go through a terminus with the environment

1:09:24 melting down around us." We have got to make these hard decisions. Okay, well then my last question to you, Dr. Greer, would be these 14 countries that are disclosing or at least making it possible for the people in those countries and people around the world to know what's in those files. Is it possible that one of the reasons they may be motivated over the United is because they think some of this stuff that's being seen in this phenomena that are that's the maneuvering has been talked about. Right. The maneuvering that defies the laws of physics might be something the United States is testing the United States just refuses to talk about? Correct. They do know that that's the case. And and and in fact, yes. In fact, in in in the French government, we've had discussions about this. They know that some of these objects are of extraterrestrial origin. They know that some of them are man-made. And the Lockheed Skunk Works and some of my witnesses and sources work in the so the famous Skunk Works. And I will I will

1:10:25 tell you that Ben Rich, who headed up the Lockheed Skunk Works, said before he died, and we have a witness to this comment, that we quote already have the technologies to take ET home. In other words, we already have at the Skunk Works interstellar capable technologies. Thank you. Congresswoman Woolsey. Yes, thank you, Ms. Chair. Um Thank you, first of all, for your testimony. It's been incredibly When you have other countries opening up is there any reason that we shouldn't do the same at least to the extent that they're doing We talked about Are you talked about some restrictions that places that we might not want to go for for actually really good reasons? Is there any reason that we shouldn't open up

1:11:26 as much as some of the other countries have done? No. There's not. And in fact, I think that in reality, the secrecy undermines our democracy. And you know, my my mom's family were some of the original founders of the United States. They were the first Well, we say the losers who got called by the British and were thrown in prison. So, we were the first POWs. And and and my family and many of us and my uncle who worked at Northrop Grumman were appalled at the the illegality of the secrecy and the ruthlessness with which it's been enforced. And those of us who gone through that buzzsaw, and I've gone through a fair amount of it. Um it is not pretty. And and what I would say is that this really does undermine our whole concept of a free It It also undermines the credibility of government. This was one of my key points that I made to Mr. Rockefeller and to the Clinton administration is that when you have almost 60% of the public believing this is real and some part of the government's hiding it it makes a laughingstock when the Air Force

1:12:27 is trotted out to say everything's a weather balloon. It just is ridiculous. So, the more we can release, the better. And I think the technology end of it needs to at least be released to the at the level where we would be able to have practical applications and sort of a peace dividend and an environmental dividend to this $2.3 trillion that are unaccounted for in the Department of Defense. And that certainly ought to happen. I certainly Thank you. I too was appalled when I sat on the Budget Committee and found out that the Defense Department is the only department that can't get through an And uh the point I used to push with with the Budget Committee was, well, let's get started someplace. I mean, take take a department take a segment of a department anything to begin to

1:13:27 how the military spends its budget. Do you think that's with what they do and much of the secrecy they work under whether it's legitimate or not, do you think that's ever possible? Well, I think it you know, we would have to make a concerted effort. And I have to tell you the look of fear and I'm I'm being very honest here. The and the anger I saw on the faces of of General Patrick Hughes and Admiral Wilson when we provided the information that I'm going to provide for you. And and which was provided to these people as well as CIA Director Woolsey. It was palpable because they realized that there was this very deep secret national security state that even they who are supposed to be looking out after our best interests were being denied access to. And when I asked the Admiral, Admiral Wilson, the head of Intelligence Joint Staff, to please you know, try to get control of this. He looked at me, he says my understanding now is that the best thing I have is a B-2 stealth.

1:14:29 What this secret organization has are things that can do circles around it. I'm outgunned. He also said that until the civilian leaders of the government order him to do something, the Secretary of Defense and the President, he can only do so much. But we couldn't get President Clinton to lean into this for reasons Well, I frankly I don't I don't know if I want to even go into that. But But it's for security reasons and safety reasons. So, I think that you know, this is the sort of problem you run into. And and General Patrick Hughes went over to a shelf. Now, this is the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, huge. And he said, this is all I've ever gotten from the Defense Intelligence Agency chain of command in my inquiries in the subject. And he had a little ET doll bought at a toy store. And we all laughed but wanted to cry. Yeah. So, so here you have and had a and an admiral and a CIA director. And

1:15:29 these people were not just picking my brain trying to figure out what I knew. They honestly were being denied access. How can this be? How can it be? Well, that's what I found in the hearing when I asked about how do we get to that place where they can go through an audit? It was I mean, it was sort of a big joke. Like well, we're never going to be able to do that. So there. Well, one of the reasons is this. And and this is going to have to get reformed somehow. I know an auditor for my uncle's old company, Northrop Grumman. He said basically, if you're dealing with one of these unacknowledged projects, they will tell you, well, we have an undisclosed amount of money doing an undisclosed project and you don't have a need to know. And they will then just rubber-stamp what's going into Northrop Grumman or Lockheed Martin or Science Applications International Corporation or Mitre Corporation. Now, I have a whole list. One of the sections in here that I will provide for you and Congressman Christopher Cox, who later

1:16:31 became Bush's head of the SEC, asked me to put this together for him. And it's a list of the facilities and corporations and sub-corporations and sub-facilities where this activity is going on. This is actionable intelligence if anyone wants to follow up on it. So, yes, you can find out. We have found out. But it is something that would have to be a concerted effort under subpoena power by people who would not take no for an answer. And that I think the people deserve. Thank you. Well, this is virtually the end of this panel and the next one is about ready to start. But I have I always have things that kind of hang in the air because nothing nothing we're learning is going to make any difference if we can't can't do anything about it. If we don't. And in 1995, the Rockefeller funded conference in

1:17:33 my question as you were talking about it was, well, what were their goals? What did they accomplish? And did anything really happen because of that? And what we're doing today, this many years later is there enough different out there that we that there can we can make a difference this week? Yes, ma'am. It's it's part of a process. And that meeting was a meeting to get together the initial governmental witnesses and to create a support group for them. I had grown men, old enough to be my grandfather, cry on my shoulder and say, we've been wanting to talk about this our whole lives. Uh-huh. Who were astronauts, who were cosmonauts. I said, okay, let's do that. But they were afraid. They had signed oaths saying that they would never talk about any of this stuff. And they were afraid. And some of them had been in unacknowledged projects where they were told they would be terminated, killed if they talked about it. And this is true. So, it it was a process. And and what I wanted to have happen in 1997, when we had the meetings for various

1:18:34 members of Congress, we had hoped that members of Congress who were chair of committees would pick up this mantle. You know, I'm still working full-time as an emergency doctor with four daughters and a golden retriever. And you know, I have a life. You know, I was doing this as a sort of a voluntary thing. But unfortunately, no one really wanted to pick this up. But I think that if we come together as a people, we can do it. Now, on the with this process, there's a there's the possibility of galvanizing a larger movement cuz I think if the people will lead, the leaders will have to follow. But we have to get the information that we have out. But I think that to the extent that you folks could influence some of your colleagues who are still in the Congress to take a serious interest in this that isn't just a dog-and-pony show of denial and ridicule, but really drills down on the again actionable intelligence that we put together over the last 15 years. I think that that would result to really the lid coming off this thing and the people knowing the truth once and for all.

1:19:35 Thank you. And now we're going to change