Citizen Hearing 2013: History & Background, Part 2

0:02 because my distinct honor to once again uh administer the oath to our second panel of the first day of the citizens hearing this panel will run until approximately 12 45 we'll have opening statements of 10 to 15 minutes maximum and then questions of five to seven minutes uh so uh miss gillian you've already been shared the oath so it's your option whether to do it again but if the rest of the panel could repeat after me i do hereby affirm i do hear that i'm here but i will tell the truth that i will tell you that i will tell the truth and nothing but the nothing about the truth to the members of this committee to remember the members of this committee today today thank you we are for the second time this morning honored to begin with mr dolan my goodness uh thank you uh esteemed members of the committee and i will keep my remarks a little um more mercifully brief than the last and i apologize for not having this

1:03 statement for you i will provide that for you for the record before we're before done here i just want to point out that researchers of ufo phenomenon have long argued with each other over many aspects of this phenomenon but one conclusion that i think all of share at least serious research is that is that it's become that ufos have become a central although covert but essential component of u.s history in the modern era and indeed world history but as everyone knows you can't have much of a history that is a reliable factually based without access to documents and it's the documents of the past that enable us in the present to try to through the complexities and find solid ground as it were and yet it's easy for us to forget that access to most of the key ufo documents we now have came to us by way

2:03 of historical accident and it happened to be a fleeting one at all through the 1940s and 1950s and 1960s and well into the 1970s there were many thousands of classified pages written about ufos of course the general didn't know about this and neither it appears to many or maybe even most members of congress but then came the end of the war in and of course watergate and this was a certain key moment in american history a moment in which the united states congress investigated the intelligence for example um and when it reopened the uh assassin investigation of the assassination of president john f kennedy and dr martin luther king jr and others and it was a moment in which congress dramatically strengthened the united states freedom of information act enabling u.s citizens to petition their government for documents not

3:04 merely relating to them personally but to the nation in terms of broad issues of public well little did members of congress realize that of all subsequent freedom of information act the most popular category would be related to ufos and indeed during the late 1970s over 10 000 pages of documents relating to ufos were released the party lasted until about 1982 when a presidential order by ronald reagan made foia substantially less user-friendly and did not require many agencies to reply in a timely manner at all the result was a major ballooning in costs to those people making requests so the glory era of freedom of information documents at least pertaining to ufos came to an end to this day more than half of all usd classified ufo documents

4:05 come from that period of time over 30 years ago great for the carter administration shame on the subsequent ones and yet we remain fortunate i think because the documents that we have thank give us at least enough they give us enough of a history to hold on to they give us enough solid ground and their aggregate message is startlingly clear ufos have been the subject not merely of interest to our nation's military and intelligence community but at times at times the subject of concern and even alarm but how could it be otherwise when we have report after report of violations of sensitive airspace by objects that defy any logical or conventional explanation whether the scene was los alamos during 1948 and 1949 or oak ridge laboratories from 1948

5:05 much of the 1950s or the many military bases during the 50s 60s and 70s that reported such events the question remains how could this not be a matter of grave concern to those parties responsible for maintaining the integrity of their airspace and not surprisingly we find the tone of their memos and requests for information to be appropriate uh to the matter at hand there is one cia memo from 1949 puts the matter in this very succinct way quote information is desired if this was some new or experimental or for any explanation whatsoever and these statements are in fact typical the situation became so stressful to the cia and elsewhere that on december 2nd 1952 this is right at the very end of the truman presidency the cia's chief of scientific intelligence h marshall

6:06 wrote a classified memo to his boss that was the director of the cia walter beadle smith and a key paragraph in this memo is as follows at this time the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and traveling at high speeds in the vicinity of major u.s defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles end quote i think this is a statement that bears very close scrutiny here is yet another comment by a high-level us official that ufos were real probably artificial probably

7:08 intelligently operated and not ours and nor was there serious that these were soviet so i would ask if not american if not soviet if not natural phenomena and if they appeared to be technological and under intelligent control well we begin to run out of viable options it is access to documents such as these that enable us to know with certainty that ufos were a matter of serious concern to individuals at the highest of u.s national security they you know i want to stress that i don't think any of the formally declassified documents we have by themselves prove that ufos are e.t i don't think any of them do but i i would argue that if you take the top 50 even the top 10 that they make a very powerful case i would say not even a matter of speculation but a matter of

8:09 that that the phenomenon was considered by the responsible members of our uh national security community that i would say is not a matter of debate or speculation and really the questions that we need to ask is why were they considering it and did they form any opinions themselves getting at that answer is a little more difficult but nonetheless the bottom line is these documents do prove this and it's important because all of these levels of concern were consistently voiced within the classified world but they were not given out publicly all through the 40s and 50s and right up to our own era the the formal public statements are always the same that there's nothing to this that it may be interesting or may not but we're not interested in we don't do ufos fortunately as as the historical accident of freedom of information turned out those documents proved the lie to those statements of denial

9:11 so today official pronouncements about ufos by the government and military it follows the exact same tone there's really no difference between what they say now and what they said 50 years ago except they're a little less insulting about it back back in the early years number statements talked about people just kind of being crazy psychopathological you don't hear that anymore but other than that it's really the same type of unfortunately though that we don't have the kind of access to classified information on ufos as we once briefly obtained in the past and yet enough genuine and recent ufo have become known to us many of which involve u.s military that we can see that very little has changed something important is happening behind the veil of the classified world my question to you is how long will current members of congress and the public at large be content to roll over and be spoon-fed

10:15 by responsible officials when in fact they deserve the truth thank you okay good afternoon or good morning distinguished members of and panelists of the citizen hearing on unidentified flying objects ufos my name is jose antonio neus and i'm a chilean american journalist who has been actively involved in covering the mystery of ufos and its hypothesis of extraterrestrial origin other theories are also possible and should be considered for the past 37 years my very first article on this topic was published in a small new york newspaper on july 4 1977 coinciding with the beginning of my professional career as a journalist in the united states i was born in this country but my family

11:16 was from chile my father worked for several years in the united nations in the early formative years of this international during which time i was born in new york in 1950 after graduating from high school in santiago in 1969 i went to europe and took a semester on french language and civilization at the sorbonne university in paris and later studied journalism at the of chile in santiago i worked for a while as a science journalist for a weekly magazine in santiago and also wrote regularly for a daily newspaper in the mid 70s where i was one of the first journalists in chile to cover ecological or green issues on a regular basis this was however a period of great turmoil in chile following the military coup of september 11 1973 the first time that faithful date shows up in modern history i might add i might add so i took the decision to claim a u.s citizen

12:16 and move to this country where i have lived ever since first in the washington dc area then new york for some 25 years back to the beltway where i lived in northern virginia for about three years and now the phoenix arizona area where i moved in 2009 after i was hired to work as a full-time paid journalist and editor of open minds and also a writer for our website and other production and research activities in morphology for the company openminds production the subject of ufos is a contentious one where many different views and attitudes coexist sometimes in a friendly manner sometimes in a more acrimonious way but there is no doubt in my mind that there is at least one conclusion we can we can and should all agree ufos are definitely a global phenomenon they're cited visually on film and on reported investigated sometimes

13:17 officially sometimes by private and covered by both the local and international media all over the world it doesn't really what is the culture language religion ethnic orange and level of development and technological capabilities of a country ufos have been reported everywhere from alaska to chile and argentina and the all over europe asia the middle east africa australia and the oceans they are well documented cases in many parts of the world including brazil france iran russia new zealand and many other countries regardless of what turns out to be the final origin of this mystery it has a great potential of unifying the and often divided parts of our world the reason is simple no matter how big our ideological religious or cultural differences are we would all tend to unite in the face of an unknown possibly

14:20 extraterrestrial presence it is for this reason that some efforts have been made over the years to bring the subject to the attention of the united nations organization this international body despite its is the only organization that truly represents all the nations of the world and so it seems to be the logical place where this issue could be dealt with in a global formal and legal manner i will outline briefly the history of ufos at the united nations a subject that i know very well firsthand since i personally attended as a journalist the famous historical ufo hearing before the un special political committee on november 1978. this was the result of a two-year lobbying effort by sir eric gary the prime minister of grenada a small caribbean island which had gained independence from great britain in 1978. i'm submitting for the record a long article detailing the history of ufos at

15:22 the u.n which i published in the third issue of open minds magazine in 2010 grenada's ufo proportional proposal was first raised officially by prime minister gary and grenada's un ambassador wellington at a meeting of the un general assembly special political committee on november 28 1977 grenada proposed the quote establishment of an agency or a department of the united for undertaking coordinating and disseminating the results of research into unidentified flying objects ufos and related phenomena grenada made further statements on november 30 and december 6 1977. in an earlier speech in october prime minister gerry disclosed his own quote i have myself seen an unidentified flying object and i have been totally overwhelmed by what i have seen

16:24 as a result of all this effort on december 13 1977 the general assembly adopted decision which acknowledged the draft the draft submitted by grenada secretary general kurt valdheim duly forwarded decision 32 424 to the member states by a note on march 13 1978. however only three governments responded india luxembourg and say shells and only two specialized agencies international civil aviation organization and unesco replied with a flat no comments to offer on the third grenada launched a new offensive in 1978 with the help of one of the original nasa astronauts gordon cooper among others a group of recognized experts was assembled by gary to testify at a hearing before the special political committee

17:25 on november 27 1978 which became the high point of the grenada initiative besides siree gary an ambassador friday who was now grenada's minister of the hearing included testimony by astronomer dr jay alan heineck the former scientific consultant for the u.s air force project blue book who went on to found the center for ufo studies kufos dr jacques vallee stanton friedman who is present at the citizen hearing and a first-hand witness account by lieutenant colonel lawrence coyne of the army reserve on the famous october 19 1973 ufo helicopter near collision in ohio a letter of endorsement by astronaut gordon cooper who was then working for the walt disney company as vice president of research and development for epcot was read into the record besides mentioning his own sighting and views on cooper wrote that quote we need to have

18:27 a top-level coordinated program to scientifically collect and analyze data from all over concerning any type of encounter and to determine how best to interface with these visitors in a friendly fashion end quote at a meeting of the un general assembly on december 18 1978 decision 33-426 was adopted with the same heading to the previous decision 32424 establishment of an agency or a department of the united nations for undertaking coordinating and disseminating the results of research into unidentified flying objects and related phenomena end quote the grenada initiative was gradually opening the door to ufos at the u.n but unfortunately the effort came to an abrupt halt when the gary government was overthrown by a marxist revolution led by maurice bishop of the new jewel

19:28 in march 1979. ironically gary was in new york to meet with curt valheim regarding decision 33 426 when the coup took place some minor efforts to rekindle the ufo initiative at the united nations were attempted by civilian investigators since the grenada coup of 1979 but with no success whatsoever because only sovereign member country can bring this issue back officially to the u.n and no government has done so since the grenada initiative of the late 70s the good news however is that we don't have to reinvent the wheel the un decisions 32 424 and 33 4326 are already on the books and could be revived if there was political will in closing these opening remarks i want to make a few important points while it's true that the majority of ufo sightings have mundane explanations

20:28 a fact recognized by most competent investigators and scientists if you really study with an open mind the extensive data bank of ufo cases collected worldwide during the last six decades you will find a small percentage of truly puzzling incidents that defy any conventional explanation the prevailing view among most researchers and the media is that these cases have an et origin but this is not the only explanation other theories including interdimensional or multiple have also been advanced even time travel has been proposed in other words ufos would be our own devices from the future coming back in time for unknown reasons i realize all this sounds like science fiction but think for a minute didn't you see people talking to each other at huge distances while viewing themselves on a screen in lots of sci-fi movies from the 50s and 60s well this happens now every day through skype in the internet similar examples

21:31 can be multiplied at infinitum what is important is to look at all the data without any preconceived ideas or beliefs the late dr heineck used to say that ufos were likely signaling the next scientific revolution but we will never get there if we don't study the phenomenon in a truly comprehensive and unbiased and i might add with the proper resources to do so the political implications or as is now referred are even bigger the alien can become a catalyst to unify the peoples of earth to realize that mankind must grow way beyond our current limitations if we are going to survive and prosper in the future many believe the open that open contact will never happen in an open way unless mankind's level of makes a significant jump let me finish with an appropriate quote from shakespeare's hamlet there are more

22:31 things in heaven and earth horatio that are dreamt in your philosophy thank you very much good morning good morning congresswoman and congressman and senator revell my name is dan sheehan i am general counsel for the committee i've been asked to speak briefly here to address a a few different instances that have occurred in my career as an attorney that bear upon this particular subject that have led to me ending up being general counsel i was also general counsel for the original disclosure uh conference that we had in so i've been around for a while on this particular area and it it arose because i was chief counsel for the united states jesuit headquarters in washington d.c here back in 1976 when president carter

23:35 was elected president and immediately after his election in november of 1976 president carter called into his office the then central intelligence agency who was george h.w bush and president carter asked to be briefed by the director of central intelligence on the issue of ufos and in that meeting cia director bush asked the if the president-elect would leave him in as the central intelligence agency and that he would promise that he would never run for political office in his life if carter would agree to keep him in as the director of the cia bush wanted to at that time become more or less like j edgar hoover had become at the fbi that he would remain that it would be above politics that he would remain in that president carter reiterated his request

24:36 for the ufo information saying that he had his own person in mind to be the director of the central intelligence agency which happened to be teddy sorensen at the time and bush at that time then refused to provide the information to him saying that he did not have adequate clearances he was not the president yet and that he should ask his own central intelligence agency director for that but if he wanted to have the information ahead of time that what he could do is he could contact the science and technology committee of the house of representatives and they had an ongoing relationship with the science and technology division of the congressional research service that could go about getting things declassified to show him that is what generated the request from congressional research service to me as the general counsel for the jesuit headquarters in the united states asking if i could gain access to the vatican library

25:37 to obtain the information that the vatican has in its library in his classified sections to deliver to the president for his review i i did that i contacted the the jesuit who happens to be the head of the the vatican library uh requesting this information and much to my surprise i was denied information i wrote a second letter to them saying look i i i guess you must not know who we are this is the jesuit headquarters in the united states we have 10 provinces here in the united states more than any other country in the world and we're requesting this information to with the president they still declined so i had to report that to marsha smith who was the head of the science and technology division of the library of congress congressional research service and she asked if i would be willing to become counsel special counsel to this investigation that was being conducted by the by the science and technology committee i agreed to do this and i told her that i would need to have

26:38 access to certain kinds of information that i would like to have just declassified or get to see it and she said what would you like to see and i said well the first thing i'd like to see is the classified sections of project blue book those sections that have been referred to by mr dolan earlier and uh and by gordon as not really available much to our surprise i was granted permission to see them and they they brought them to washington and they brought them over to the jefferson building the extension to the congressional library before it was even open the brand new building that they built across the street and so i was invited to come over there i went over there no one else was in the building they had security people at the door i went over and i was brought downstairs into a room where they had these shoe boxes uh with with uh with microfilm in them and documents et and in my review of those documents i came upon photographs of unquestioned

27:41 ufos was it any question about what they it wasn't a light in the sky it wasn't a vague report about having seen something going very fast by these were photographs official united states air force photographs some taken through gun sights but another one of a crashed saucer on the ground that it was there was snow in the in the photographs it showed a a uh a the the saucer had hit into a field and had plowed across the field and was into a snow bank set up about a 45 degree angle and i could see in the photographs u.s air force personnel dressed in heavy parkas uh taking video taking actually film with those two cameras with a great big camera circles on top the films like this sort of must have been in the 1950s uh and i i saw this and i realized that i could see in one of the photographs symbols that were on the the dome of the the ufo sticking in the

28:41 snow bank so what i did i we had i had one of uh they were the microfiche those little machines you put the microfiche in you cranked the little handle very high tech this was and so what i did is they had told me that i wasn't allowed to take any notes when when i went in there the two the two security men at the door told me i was not allowed to take any but i actually had a yellow pad under my under my arm when i went in like this and so when i went in and when i saw these photographs what i did is i i cranked down the the on the uh on the machine so that i could get a close-up view of these symbols that were around the dome of the the ufo and what i did is i opened up the yellow pad and i put the yellow pad in there and i traced the actual symbols that were along the base of the of the saucer and then i closed it up and i said i think i'd probably better leave now because uh

29:41 i have this so what i did is i i put all the stuff back into the boxes and i put the little yellow pad under my arm and i walked back out and the two security guys said i'd like my briefcase back they handed me my briefcase and i started to walk away and one of them says what's that under your arm and i said oh this is a yellow pad and he opened it up and he leafed through all the pages and there was nothing and so because i put it on the inside of the cardboard and so i took that back with me to jesuit headquarters and i brought it to father bill davis who was my superior at the jesuit and we then agreed to go we gathered all of the major religious denominations their washington dc offices and we brought them into a meeting and we proposed to them from the jesuit national headquarters that we establish as a priority having the churches try to ascertain what information we could get and that we would get the backing of the churches and then go to the vatican library and see if we could start to address this

30:42 now that is that is what we did in father bill davis when i and i asked him this he he got puzzled and he reached down and he he pulled open the drawer and it was out of his desk at the jesuit headquarters right over by dupont circle 1717 mass ave is where we were and he opened up the door and he pulled out a photograph and he said this is a photograph that i got from my sister her husband is a uh is in the the tower in the seattle washington airport he's a he's a flight controller and his best friend is a commercial pilot and he this photograph out of his window of the commercial airline and he handed me the photograph of this so we showed this to the people at the washington inter-religious staff council that we organized asking them if they would make this a priority and they they said are there any other subjects you'd like to discuss instead of that that they didn't want to address that at that time and what happened i was

31:44 contacted then by marsha smith who was directing the investigation for president carter at the congressional research service and she asked me if i would go to meet with the people at the jet propulsion laboratory in california in the seti to search for extraterrestrial intelligence and give them a briefing on the theological of contact with extraterrestrial intelligence so i was privileged to deliver a three-hour seminar to the top 50 scientists in the seti program on the theological of contact with an extraterrestrial and then in 1994 i was contacted by dr john mack who was the chairman of the department of clinical psychiatry at harvard medical school because i had graduated from harvard college and graduated from harvard law where i was one of the founders of the harvard civil rights law review and i had gone on to harvard divinity and he contacted me and asked me if i would represent him because he had written a book based upon

32:47 his clinical uh assistance to high-level military officials and others in the country who had been sent to have psychological background done on who had reported these direct contacts with extraterrestrial vehicles of this kind and when i met with him he had written this book in the the faculty committee at harvard university had called him into a session with the with the legal counsel from harvard university and the head of the dean of the the medical school getting ready to challenge his his tenure for his having written this book that it was undermining the world view of harvard university and so i we met with lawrence rockefeller and lawrence rockefeller agreed to fund what would really amount to a grand to present to the harvard faculty all of the basic information that we had on the existence of ufos and they then dropped the hearings and said they didn't they didn't want to have this hearings turned into a circus now

33:50 those those were my initial contacts with them and so i i have delivered a number of uh presentations to the international ufo congress over the the years uh on the theological implications of contact with an extraterrestrial civilization and as you may know the vatican has now started to issue press statements they actually held a major press conference talking about the fact that in light of the more recent discoveries of the increasing number of planets that now realize have suns and atmosphere and are in what they call the goldilocks zone it's called they're close enough to their planet their their sun in the solar their solar systems but not so far away that they're likely to have potential life on them and as these planets began to multiply the vatican has now held an official press conference announcing that they in fact have now taken the position that the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence in a highly

34:50 technologically developed intelligence is not inconsistent with catholic theology and that is that is what is going on right now there are very high level meetings going on right with the new pope to discuss what positions are going to be taken by the by the international catholic church with regard to the theology my my understanding is as former chief counsel for the jesuits that the fact is that the catholic church does not want to be behind the power curve on this issue and they realize that with the increasing contact and discovery of these additional planets that it's going to become clear within our generation within our lifetimes that in fact highly technologically developed uh extraterrestrial intelligence actually exists in the findings of the congressional research service that were delivered to the president to president carter is that based upon all of their analysis that they have come to the conclusion this is an official conclusion of the congressional research service

35:50 that they have come to a 95 probability that there are from 2 to 10 highly technologically developed extraterrestrial civilizations within our own galaxy now and remember in there in our galaxy the milky way galaxy there are 50 billion star systems in our galaxy and there are 50 billion trillion galaxies that are now known the question in the abiding question and that's the one that you and i discussed last night congressman parliament have these vehicles developed the capacity to transport vehicles beyond the speed of light because if they have then all these now become focused that that means that they would be able to be here come here and go and if they have then all of these sightings that we've talked about all these hundreds of witnesses

36:50 that we've talked about then are talking about a very real and i'll close with this one observation when i was i was legal counsel for the iran contra uh investigations that we were the ones that actually initially discovered the iran contra weapons supply and when i delivered this information to peter rodino who was at the time the chair of the judiciary committee of the house through scott armstrong scott armstrong as you'll recall was the staff person on staff of the judiciary committee during the watergate investigations who the taping system in the white house that alexander butterfield revealed this to scott so i went and brought this information to him and because of his close relationship with peter rodino he delivered all of the information we had about the off-the-shelf enterprise the involvement of poindexter and everyone else and the response of peter rodino was he said he said my god he said if what you're telling me is true about this off-the-shelf enterprise going on delivering these weapons

37:51 contrary to the orders of congress why then he said i've been telling my constituencies if they didn't like the way that american policy was going that they should write a letter to their congress person and if their congress person didn't do what they wanted to do you should vote for someone else for congress but if what you're telling me is true scott my god we haven't even been in control i'm not going to allow the congress of the united states to investigate anything like that and that's the issue that's before us now because if in fact we're not in ultimate control and there is an extraterrestrial intelligence of this type of that's been visiting our planet and entering our airspace and outmaneuvering our aircraft it's perfectly clear that from a political consciousness that abides inside our executive branch and inside our legislature that is not that they want to share with the american people because it would ultimately undermine

38:52 the confidence of the governed in their governors my name is lieutenant colonel richard i am one of the writers of the original air force blue book i was a student at oregon starting in 1947 and in my junior year i asked what specialty i wanted to be assigned when i graduated an advisor told me about the office of special investigations it sounded like an exciting and glamorous job so i volunteered brigadier general and if a former fbi director of the of the washington district was commissioned as an air force general and assumed command of

39:53 the osi the osi of course was also given the added responsibility of investigating the phenomenon of unidentified flying the osi assignment required that i have final top secret clearance granted before i could even report for duty that caused a delay in my reporting because i in fact i'm adopted and all of my uh medical and birth records and all that are sealed after a year they straightened out that vest and i reported to do20 in mccord air force base washington there my training officer was a special agent named john drejos under his supervision i investigating uf5 ufo reports and recording the incidents in the air force's blue book the most controversial ufo incident that occurred in my early training and deserve special mention because of

40:55 unique factor an f-100d pilot had was well they launched the ds they launched a normally and just in twos rather than fours like tactical fighters anyway he pulled up on this ufo and it approximately 30 yards directly behind the thing the uh the f-86 today carries a total of 36 what two and a half inch or two and a let me get this straight uh it carries 36 of those two and a half inch rockets and they're carried in a pod that drops and it drops and automatically fires when it comes down well he got the clearance to fire which kind of surprised everybody and but he blew that ufo out of the sky but there

41:55 the problem is that that the recording of the incident well let me get this exactly right the ufo intercept violated the prohibited zone at hanford's atomic energy facility he was a wingman and pulled up straight ahead and was given a clearance to fire when the when the weapon fired the pod but his airplane exploded they uh they drug the colorado river i mean the columbia river in a 60 mile area and they never found a piece or a part or any anything even pertaining to it and now the i mentioned that i had just a very fast look at the magic report i hope you people are familiar with it but if you're not it is the original report that was prepared president truman was the

42:58 the people who were on that committee and i just didn't just get a very quick look at it but i could easily remember who they were because of who they were they they included the chiefs of the president of course and also the chiefs of staff of all of the armed force arms of the united states in other words chief of naval operations and the head of the coast guard and on and on and that terminates my presentation we have about 10 minutes for each member uh of the six of you and that'll take us to 12 50. and i've been asked by both the chair and the co-chair to give time as we're approaching that 10-minute limit for each of you so i'll do that as gently as possible my understanding is that there will be time cue cards visible to the panelists here and to

44:01 uh the members back here so if we will watch those and and time ourselves i remember a number of years ago i was traveling the car and had my car radio on and there were two news accounts one was that there were some ufo sightings over new mexico and the other was that there had been two mysterious deaths in new york city that might have been cyticosis and if it was cydicoses it might have come from dried pigeon manure so it was a serious suggestion that maybe we ought to kill all the pigeons in new york well i listened to those two newscasts and i thought gee if these flying saucers are extraterrestrial i think i'd wander around a bit up there and watch for a while yet before i landed uh you know as i said when we started this it is really enormously arrogant and presumptuous to believe that we are the most advanced uh civilization in the universe we still fight stupid wars and kill each

45:02 this has to be a better way doesn't it again i will reserve my question so the end uh my co-chair i i wanted to mention one other thing all of the time and there was a period there that's about 12 years but during that 12-year my primary job as a member of the osi was to debunk them in other words i i'd come up with any kind of explanation we say it was swamp gas or you name it anything that we come up with to apparently convince the general public and maintain the secrecy level on that some of our answers i i swear were but the swamp gas for instance they were at that time there was an average of about three a week ufos had descended into the gulf breeze florida area if you know

46:03 where that is it's just the where the panhandle is in florida anyway i went down there and we observed them just regularly just sit there every evening with a cocktail and then they'd come and but but what was it it was small gas that's what that was my lie and i made good on it but that was my actual job to be the most artful lawyer on earth thank you very much so uh colonel french he did a good job of it obviously yeah thank you so for all four of you i have this it's starting to weigh on me if um transparency would reveal that we really aren't in

47:03 that there are actually as intelligent more like more than likely more intelligent light life form than humans um and that in so knowing and admitting would be dangerous how do we that's a closed circle folks so what do you recommend how do you recommend we handle this let's start with the colonel who won't tell us it's a gas form well i i see no other way to attack than to come up with some kind of international organization something along the line of what we already have in him or some similar governmental way and then putting those people you because when you you think about it this confronts religion directly and

48:05 firmly yeah and uh we do need some type of organization something that you know this uh if need be to contact these people from another university when they come like you know it's a lot better if you say hi buddy not try and shoot their tail end off so so uh reclaiming my time to go on to you danielle but let me add a piece to this now um then how will the united states for one uh give up uh our our rights as in our national security rights if we went on to uh cooperate with the united nations on this yes this this is a this is a world view that uh one one of the things that i

49:05 discovered after a number of years in practice that the reason i ended up going back to harvard divinity school to study after spending a number of years out practicing law was that that this is a world view issue that people don't think about this very but the reality is there's a spectrum of world views that are shared by our human uh the political manifestation of which or the political philosophy of which is you have people who are authoritarians you have people who are reactionaries you have people who are conservatives you have people who are moderates you have people who are liberals you have people who are progressives then you have people who are basically referred to as utopianists uh who tend to be theological for the most part but there's a whole eighth world view there's an octave of world views and there's a new world view that is in the offing right now and that is the world view that is going to have to be addressed by our human once we come to acknowledge that there are in fact there's a super sophisticated highly

50:06 extraterrestrial civilization and that there may be more than one of these species okay i'm going to reclaim my time because i wanted to know how to get break through this like it's a new world view we have to we have to construct a new world okay you're going to you're suggesting that we're going to take on a new world view if that's what it takes to happen uh we're if we're a long way from that tony who neos well you know every so often things happen in the history of the world that change that lead to a complete change and um that was the case when america was discovered and it was called the new world even though it was part of the same world but at that time you know it completely changed paradigm of uh of the of the late medieval period and there was even discussions whether you know maybe the earth paradise was in or whether the natives americans had a you know it was a whole kind of huge

51:07 discussion and eventually obviously we're here so it it worked out and uh same thing when uh the atomic bomb was released you know uh dropped in japan that changed the paradigm of that period so i think this is the next frontier and i don't think it's going to be as difficult as it seems because we're kind of conditioned already by the by the media and by the entertainment industry i mean if even when i started this this business uh third well such as we could call it a business this this this duty many years ago the attitude of people was was very uh really ufos were considered like like cookie subject you know and now it people that you as a young generation for them he said well what's the big deal it's obvious that there's life in the in the in the in the universe so i don't know exactly how it will but uh but it will and uh

52:10 and we will have to adjust and move forward so i guess it's a good thing we have the entertainment industry to turn on people's imaginations richard uh yes thank you for this question it's very important i often think you know no parent is ever ready for their first child but they happen anyway uh disclosure of this reality you know we may or may not be ready for it we probably won't be ready for it frankly i think that our society is going through such a tremendous revolution this isn't 1990 certainly not 1950 and we have capabilities today that i think are forcing this issue out wikileaks didn't exist 10 years ago because it couldn't exist it wasn't a global cell phone cameras all of this is all new so i think something's going to happen is going to force this out front and center and my suspicion i can only guess is that those people who knowledge on this and i think there are such people must be aware they must be aware that they cannot keep this secret i think the wise thing to do would be judiciously and responsibly to begin

53:13 allowing some of this information out there maybe there are controlled leaks i do think that when this is this matter is out on the table that doesn't mean all the answers will be there it just means that we'll be able publicly uh without all the you know joking and ridicule to be able to talk about it as a public policy issue uh i also think that this will necessitate a geopolitical revolution you mentioned the issues of u.s national security well there's other countries in the world and they're all going to be affected by this and so it will have to be necessary for there to be a true united nation something that actually works that people can um believe in because without that i think it's just going to be do i have any more time two minutes that's the the next uh i would like to go from we've we're worried about airspace how about cyberspace so

54:13 my background is i have more combat than virtually anyone you'll ever meet i have more than 800 combat missions 860 in jet wow so i'm i'm not afraid of battle obviously the dumbest thing we could do is weaponize space and i've been in that argument several times and it would be absurd to do that thank you thank you thank you good cyberspace that's uh one minute it's it's quite it's quite clear that the technology that seems to be at the disposal of this civilization is able to you know if the fbi can tap into your internet and then clearly they can too so they're undoubtedly monitoring all the communications that are going on and i would dare say that there is a process going on of feathering into our culture information technology that is going to soften this blow that there's a process going on of

55:14 released information of contact information etc and i find it based on 40 years of doing these kind of investigations of watergate iran contra and others that i've been directly involved in that there's clearly going to be a decision made by very high level above all of our pay grades here i say with all due respect from congress people that there'll be a decision made to start feathering into the culture to prepare our people for this rather gradually which has been going on now for the last 60 years i think i i i think we're finished thank you congresswoman kilpatrick thank you very i think i want to start with the colonel i served on the air force academy board for about six years in my 12-year tenure 14 years in congress i served on the appropriations defense committee first african-american woman ever to serve there it's only been three in the history of our 2000 year country it's outrageous we really believe that

56:15 women have something to offer so i really appreciate your service right right we come from a let's work this out kind of thing so we wouldn't have this problem if we when we control the world but um having said that uh look colonel i partici i really appreciate your service your time your 800 plus i've been all over the world with the uh defense department and it's been quite quite an experience for me and it's really capitalized and captured my tenure and kindness really why is it that when you were there you couldn't talk about it uh everything i've read and seen everybody hush hushed it i know wait wait let me do i want you to do the whole question whole question i know and i know a lot of it's you know from the presidential right on down to the joint chiefs of staff so one of you all spoke to that and we're going to go back we didn't call it by that name but that's kind of what it was uh that truman had exactly as a matter of fact why is it now that you're at the table uh discussing it with us acknowledging

57:16 that it is probably it's because i'm in my 80s i praise god okay here is here's the problem if you had a government job you had to you need to be what they call humanly in other words you had if you they thought you were a maniac or something lose your wings and lose your job and so so anyway i think it's because of that the uh basically the human reliability the fact that there are some real in various places and you can't identify them well enough and and then they won't submit uh well they have a problem with next to ken if they have a have a child that is ill mentally what do you do you believe today that as you sit here with us and former members of congress 80 plus years of

58:18 experience having uh now before this committee whose time has come since 1968 there's been no hearing as you know we're moving to that and i don't know that the answer is another hearing right now i'm afraid for it i heard this discussion this morning there's a lot of private things going on i like to see partnerships private public i think that's when americans get our best bet when we come together as a nation and a private public kind of atmosphere when you talk about what you just said and i agree that it's urgent i think somebody at the table mentioned coming together and acknowledging it that which we haven't done is this country other countries are beginning to do that and some were mentioned this do you think the air force will ever come to that point and is it a domestic or international partnership that we need how how would you begin it you know you come with the credibility necessary and i don't think we got much choice something's got to be done and you all have to help us formulate that too

59:19 i agree with that thank you very much for your service uh mr sheehan you talked about which is worse that's how you ended that dynamic presentation that you had which is which is worse do we try to put this together and save ourselves with the world or do we continue to put our heads in the sand that it doesn't exist and you know that it does i'm i'm at a loss i yes you all are giving us good information and we i think those in the audience want us to come up with some kind of and i can't have it both ways you got to be solid it's a very it's a very difficult issue in the in the because of the the job assignments when a person is a congressional representative for example and has the duty of representing her or his congressional district and the interests that are there it's a job and as you know a significant number of the congress people are lawyers they view themselves as representing a certain client base and the problem is is that we represent if we represent a nation state and we insist upon maintaining the the

1:00:19 special privilege of our citizens the president special access we have the resources in the world etc even to the detriment of other other nation states we're still at a level of consciousness that is very dangerous talking too much yeah break it down for me you got to get me give me two three points i mean we don't have a lot of and i love everything you said yeah but don't give it to me back we got to have something to hold on to we're we're going to we're going to have to yield some of our national sovereignty to an intern to a global body like the united nations right there we're not doing that i mean we got no leadership prisons now who don't even acknowledge that exists so we're not going to yield anything it's got to be approached it maybe we do it better because we're former elected officials public policy makers can't say it like that because the wall goes up and you don't get past it's got to be a better way to say that and begin to do some of what you suggest and it'll come probably through religious communities that the the altering of consciousness with regard to an angelic realm a another dimension of

1:01:22 that's where most people categorize these types of discussions and that's where you worked with the jesuit yes coordination coalition i think that's a good night that's a good start i think you can't leave out private industry i think you can't think about the universities i mean it's got to be a major coalition things and institutions in our country and around the world that would come more than one time with experts like yourselves and laymen like us and others who have interest in the issue because it is a world phenomena and if we keep acting like it doesn't exist then we all lose the world loses that's right so you know i don't i think time is urgent and i'm very new at the issue so i'm just learning it even as a member of the appropriations armed service committee we tacitly touched it but then it goes away even at the academy where we're outstanding young men and women who dedicate their lives to this country uh and they have some things that they look at and then it's put away it's it's in the it's in the air force academy uh exactly exactly i was going to go to the airport do you

1:02:22 feel the urgency do you all feel the urgency and i'm going to ask um i'm going to say your name well thank you very much mr she had the ur is there urgency here are we just here just just talking normally people have put it away i mean officially right governments but i think in a way there is because the potential uh is it has a very good potential like i said in my statement it could really do the trick that anything else everything else has failed you know what do we do in this earth we have tremendous problems uh besides this uh environmental problems and hunger and so on you know and uh somehow we don't seem to be able to deal with them as a as a world society there's just too much fight fighting and an ideological differences and religious differences the issue of religious is very important look at all the recent uh problems we've had

1:03:23 internationally you know uh with certain of the islamic religion and all that in fact i wrote an article in in the magazine about the ufos in islam and uh and it was which was quite interesting for me to to research that and like all religions you know again you have many factions within a religion uh i do agree with with with daniel probably if if the pope and uh and other religious figures they might be the the way to do it that that may do the trick rather than the political will because you know how politics are yeah i mean you know better than than we do how okay thanks again for a minute left thank you very much for that just just in kind of summary trying to understand it as an 12 years on the federal appropriations committee with a budget of nearly three trillion dollars biggest being the armed services of 700 billion dollars now we're on our needs we don't have the money for this or that could this possibly be something that can save our budget get

1:04:24 more resources make it universal offer some kind of i'm looking at from an appropriations point there's got to be some coming together we spent a lot of money doing a lot of things that never happened quick i sit here as an appropriator looking for dollars to help save america first and incidentally help the rest of the world sorry to interrupt there anything that can allow an object to loiter and definitely instantly accelerate and do it all silently is using something better than petroleum for moving around so there there must be whatever that answer is there must be something implicit in the reality of this phenomenon that will actually be a game changer and that's that's really one hope we've got everything so messed up in every other way looking at the world we're not cooperating we're fighting but if if this is real if there is a energy paradigm solution here in the ufo phenomenon that by itself is worth every single effort that we can make to get that out in the open thank you thank you

1:05:28 thank you very much senator gravel let me point out that it's not only the problem of the is the problem of the american people which has been propagandized by the congress and its leadership that we are superior as americans to anybody else in the world that's the problem if we're going to have a global community we must put our humanness first before our nationality and and what what the testimony that i is that you're talking about a paradigm in global governance now let me ask this as a favor to you to us for this immediate hearing would you get together with daniel and the others and draft draft a resolution that we could decide at the end of the hearings on friday to

1:06:28 recommend the creation of a united agency using the granada precedent and already the numbers uh the resolutions have been so you draft that it's not doesn't have to be 20 pages it could be one page maybe two paragraphs you draft this so that we can get our hands around in this regard and then we'll have to make a decision are we prepared as former public as private citizens to put our money where our mouth is and that is to be globalist before we nationalists and that's the answer yes so if you could provide us with that documentary we'd be deeply in your debt as on this side of the table and i would i could start that a little bit because there's a there's a provision in the united nations which is called unite uniting for peace and henry kissinger told us about this in gov 180 at harvard college and he if the world population ever finds out about this we're all in trouble

1:07:30 he said i was kind of wondering who he meant and he's right yeah the government the leadership is going to be in trouble once the people wake up that's right you need a device and right now the device is the knowledge that bringing forward that we're trying to here so first would you bring that resolution as soon as you can we'll circulate it among the members uh and the leadership of the peridot research group and we can just to seek direct action now the question i would ask uh mr dolan uh you mentioned uh that the compendium of documents that you're aware of uh has come about through freedom of information act has come about by accident in many is there anything out there that that backs up the roswell incident that is the crash and the humanoids is there any document that we could put our hands on yes sir there are there are a few very

1:08:31 interesting documents even uh as early as july 1947 fbi uh which was involved in re investigating so-called flying saucers very actively had a memo indicating that the debris or whatever was recovered at roswell was being transferred to right field dayton ohio uh u.s air force um i think it's rather interesting whatever this was if it was some kind of balloon apparatus i think we could ask why why would that be transferred to to right field so that's interesting there there are a number of other um documents that talk about rumors within the military discussions of um there's no that's not good enough right no no that's just hearsay but regarding there was in back in 1994 the general accounting office of was was tasked with looking into the roswell incident

1:09:32 all right and um this was on the initiative of late representative steven schiff of new mexico whose constituents asked him to do this and he and he did uh schiff talked about this at length about how the air force and the pentagon just stonewalled him gave him nothing gave him a lot of expletives as well uh in the process but what the gao's was that the relevant records at roswell from the end of 1946 into i think were gone all the records that they were looking for that they expected to find were surprised not there and uh there was no explanation given these are records according to the gao that should not have been ever removed they were permanent but they were they were gone and the air force by the way was very very deft in their handling of this because while the gao investigation was going on the united states air force took the initiative and did their own

1:10:33 study quote unquote study in which they beat the gao to the punch in terms of publicity got their own thing out there and said oh yeah it was a classified balloon project known as mogul which was designed to test to see whether the soviets were detonating their own atomic devices uh it's a big big fat report it looks very impressive when you actually read it it's it's a load of fluff in my opinion but that was their explanation they beat the gao to the punch and so they won the pr good thank you mr sheehan would you address briefly what is the theological implication briefly yeah it's uh coming coming to grips with the full import of the theological uh is what undergirds all of this is that for for each of us to recognize we are incarnated in in a material form but that there are

1:11:34 other vibrational frequencies at which there are other dimensions of going on at the same time our our theology is the realm in which we deal with it it's a category of knowledge in the human family in which we deal with other dimensions of reality what happens after death how did we get here what are we doing here what's our ultimate purpose these are things that are raised by the ufo issue and that's why i reiterate that it's theology it's in the realm of theology that we have to come to address this and when we when we do what we're going to discover is that we're going to draw down into our culture a lot of those same realities that for example the native american culture and some of the aboriginal cultures that they are in a dynamic relationship with other dimensions other vibrational and that our culture our culture has closed itself off from that from from the time of the enlightenment in trying to define

1:12:36 as separated individuated intellectual beings and that we're not in a uh in in balanced relationship with the rest of reality the consequences of course are falling upon us now because of the global climate change that we're experiencing the contamination of our environment by and this is the crisis i think one of the crises that's going to confront us and that my sense is that we're going to become much more if we probe into the theology of all of this we're going to come to have a much more profound appreciation for the native american culture and the the theology of the native american culture and the faculty of intuitional perception that our human family has which is a faculty that's evolving uh teleologically in our culture and this is what te har de chardin has dealt with it within the jesuits it's a it's the cutting edge of modern theology and the insights that we've gained now through quantum physics since 1923 to 1926 we have to integrate

1:13:37 our scientific worldview the insights of quantum physics and we have to begin to readjust our basic worldview as i pointed out before to evolve a new worldview that integrates these capabilities thank you very much i yield back the balance of my time congressman cook i would like to start by asking colonel french you were involved in the uh initiation of the blue book processes yes could you elaborate a little more on what you found out from that and especially so i have a better understanding of how that got stopped or discarded or what exactly on the blue book and how long did that go on i just need a better understanding if you don't mind too much but they ask about what happened to the

1:14:39 the results of the accident at alamogordo yeah well all of that that was taken to what is called the foreign technology division at wright-patterson air force base and what was shipped there was physical uh actually parts of some kind of another unusual aspect of it was though the metal wasn't it wasn't any thicker than cellophane i mean just but you put it in your hand and you crush it together and it flops right back into shape we had it analyzed it didn't come from earth there's no known we have no known source of whatever that medal was yes you've actually uh held some of that uh yeah okay and so as uh marcel jesse what herself did the same thing and uh and i understand from uh

1:15:41 from the roswell basically what's generally called the roswell incident uh i realized there were several different locations of materials gathered up um there were dozens and dozens of witnesses on the materials and you're clearly one of them and one of the you know at least in terms of the analysis of the materials not gathering them up but tell us about were there witnesses of any uh as has been referred to as a humanoid oh yes but but where and who because you don't hear nearly as much about that but they also were taken to the foreign technology division there were if i remember was about eight or nine corpses and i'm more interested right now in the witnesses to that to i've read the accounts but there were many witnesses of materials i can't point you to anyone that can add to that except uh

1:16:43 marcel okay because he he was the first one to pick it up went out to the crash policed up the pieces of the airplane and there were specific markings on them like they were identification numbers for parts or something of that nature but it would look like rather like arabic writing it didn't look like anything from our part of the argument did marcel indicate that he had actually witnessed the humanoid part i know he witnessed the uh the answer over here well and please if anybody can illuminate well first of all there are there are quite many many witnesses of course who've gone on the record about roswell unfortunately we'll have a roswell panel uh oh during there are a number of researchers have specialized in that my question was it started off as the blue book but blue book was the us air force official public investigative body of ufos from

1:17:44 actually it was it was a successor of a couple of previous ones started 1952 went up to 1969 when it was closed down okay but it did include some of the roswell stuff it included nothing in roswell it's a blue book there there no there's nothing okay so that was okay well i just i'd asked about blue book and nothing when did you say it was uh closed down and what was the reason the end of 1969 what happened in the 1960s is that the united states had a big big wave of ufo 1965-66 made the news gerald ford congressman miss chicken talked about it on the on on the floor of congress his constituents had seen ufos and he was not satisfied with the answers that were coming from the air force and the pressure was really on the united states air force to do something about this they it's hard to remember because it's so far back in time but the air force was losing a lot of credibility on this a lot of people were not believing the air force explanations and swamp gas became a big national joke at that time and so really all the air force wanted to do is get rid of ufos

1:18:45 and so what they ended up doing was they contracted with the university of to conduct what was to be the first true public scientific investigation of ufos and and the whole attitude was whatever colorado comes up with that's what we're going to conclude and what what that that study did is a that was a whole big mess half the scientists got fired midway through the project because they were the the man running at edward condon was absolutely dead set against any kind of pro ufo pro et so based on that recommendation the air force was able to wash their hands say thank you very much and they said we're out of the business we're not doing this anymore there's no way to retrieve any of the i just got to make sure i understand this and i appreciate because you've eliminated this greatly for me was there any way to find out exactly what was in the blue book at this point then i mean i'm i'm looking for yes yes i mean well the blue book files they're still there they're just saying

1:19:47 absolutely being covered up no no no no oh we can still read those okay well i would uh they're confused on that issue the promises yeah and the problem is that roswell stuff is not in the blue book files okay yeah now i've got a better understanding of all that and in the in the prior panel uh stanton friedman referred to a memo by a general carol bollander in which he he stated in closing blue book down in 1969 that ufo reports affecting national were not part of the blue book system so blue book i do remember him saying that if i could turn to uh mr hunez and mr sheehan religion has been brought up and implied in terms of this whole thing several ways and um now you're not trying to say that just because pat robertson has a particular or because popes in the past have said things that clearly don't agree with you're saying as a jesuit right

1:20:49 the religion is somehow against the idea of extraterrestrial life no in fact it's quite the contrary that religion really arrow the latin derivative of is to relink the whole idea of relinking the intellect in electus the the root of intellect is inelectus the ability to distinguish the difference between that whole ability that we developed somewhere between australopithecus and homo erectus this intellectual capacity we alienated ourselves in a separate entity here behind our eyeballs from all the rest of reality sure that's the danger okay but i'm kind of adjust this a little bit was it an implication that it's more of the uh well let me just say going to christian religions in specific you think there's some bias against the belief and extraterrestrial uh because because you were talking about maybe we're going to have to yeah that's from a different religious perspective or something i think that

1:21:51 within within one of the features the unique features of catholic christiology for example is each of the world views that i'd pointed out that have political implications there are subsets of catholic and christian theology in all of those so there's a reactionary worldview that is fundamentalist that everything is divided into good guys and bad guys and the satan in in angelic realms and they've projected this satanic reality that they have onto extraterrestrials which is very very dangerous well i i would you know i'm not in any way here to do missionary work for my particular religious faith or certainly to speak for my religious faith i'm a mormon but on a fundamental level many mormons believe it's consistent with doctrines of the church that there is life what's an official outside the uh it's a traditional it's an official doctrine of the church of the latter day saints the actual belief in extraterrestrial intelligence and i want to make that

1:22:51 again i'm not here for that no but it's true preacher anything is true but i'm i'm also i think and i think most mormons believe as i do on that yes would still say that's still a leap to say that we've had the visitation and there's nothing in the religious sense that would prohibit that right but we need as strong an evidence as we can to help this panel open up some congressional hearings and by the way i'm not giving up on the united states congress yet i don't think we have to go to the united nations maybe that might be a way but let's also try to open this up at the united states congress yes level i agree the catholic position on all this well my grandmother's a catholic that's all i have to do with the catholic church however it's very important one thing

1:23:51 that the catholic church has done and believe it or not they commissioned the building of a wide-angle lens to search the skies for inbound it's in tucson arizona believe it or not okay well thank you thank you very much congresswoman julie what kind of i mean the reaction over the last 30 40 years in the united what what's the reaction and what's what has happened in the rest of the world what's going on have there been sightings do they feel differently about it than we've you know a lot of people feel about it here what's happening elsewhere well as i said in my statement uh the one thing that i think even would have to agree is that the ufo phenomenon is worldwide it doesn't

1:24:51 matter i mean it doesn't matter the it doesn't matter the ethnic ethnic origin the language the culture it has been reported all over the world now there are some sociological uh differences as you would expect right from different cultures but we see there's quite a rich history of ufo and even ufo investigations official investigations and we will be discussing this in in in in a few more sessions uh during this about investigations and we have in fact with us some members from some of the south uh agencies so we've seen an opening in recent years particularly in some european countries and in particular in south america now er odd as it may seem it almost seems to be good politics now in south america to have a ufo investigation i know it sounds awkward but uh the latin culture is

1:25:53 obviously more open uh there's much less uh in the media and all that about this and so we've seen a trend it started with uruguay back in the late 70s and we have a representative that will be speaking later in this week and then chile peru ecuador brazil argentina recently announced the creation of a ufo agency within the air force what is interesting about the south american to this phenomenon from an official point of view is that there's not an adversarial relationship between the military agencies and the civilian ufo committees or ufo groups totally different from the united states where we even in the days of blue book there was always a big fight between uh ufologists civilian ufologists and the air force that was classic you know if you read the history of ufos in the united states but in south africa and it used to be a little bit like that too in south

1:26:54 america not as bad as here but now you see that they cooperate and they usually what happens is because a lot of these agencies they have a limited budget a small budget right so they call for from the civilian community and that create that shows as a model we don't have to have an adversarial we don't have to fight the government this is a mystery we should all work together in order to solve this mystery so that that's uh at least some of what is going on um but even russia has had a lot of official investigations even under the soviet union there were committees uh from the um there were actually two committees that were that were going on in the late 70s and 80s one was a public one uh through the soviet academy of sciences and the other one was a secret one uh by the kgb and the ministry of defense the soviet military um nobody knew about that one publicly but the scientific one was

1:27:54 or even officially revealed even in the controlled soviet media and then of course under gorbachev in the 1980s glasnost it opened up and the ufo phenomenon became very very popular in in in in the late soviet society and into modern russia so china has had kind of a semi-official organization called the china ufo research organization we will have one of its founding members here also attending this hearing so yes you see it all over the world in in other countries actually have a more open attitude i mean officially so it provides a model also for the us in my opinion for any of the panelists um the other question i have one of the other questions i have is a lot of people when they talk about this at least in this country are ridiculed when they talk about it this is you know poupon you're you know you're

1:28:57 somewhere in outer space what why i guess has there been some organization or is it just our attitudes in the united states tell me why there's so much skepticism in this country um i'll feel i'll try to feel that i do find privately people are much more open about this than they are when they're in a public situation that's one people discover that uh probably any of these researchers and they discover oh you research ufos inevitably they will say oh let me tell you about what i saw last year five years 20 years ago so those stories are out there and people i firmly believe there is a true hunger for knowledge on this once people realize that there's something to it but i agree with you um in our public discourse this is a third rail whether you are in major media or politics or academia they're all really the same in this

1:29:58 regard i had a professor at ucla call me a number of years ago department chair said well i really just want to let you know i enjoy your books i said thank you why are you whispering in the phone which literally he was whispering and you know he said the typical thing that every professor would say well my department's kind of political and you know not go right so uh it's always the retired ones who look for me but um personally i i believe you know the the tone was set back in the 50s and in fact the the top skeptic debunker in the us at that time was a harvard astronomer by the name of donald menzel um menzel wrote a number of books he was like the the pit bull guard dog maintaining orthodoxy uh that you know if some little community college professor was going to get out of line and talk about ufos here's menzel harvard astronomer who's going to argue with menzel and he'd slap them down menzel we learned years later had a very very close relationship with the national

1:30:59 security agency very close does this prove that the nsa used him in this capacity who knows but these things this is how it looks back in the late 1970s journalist carl bernstein had the famous rolling stone in which he said there are over 400 u.s journalists that i have identified who had a covert relationship with the central intelligence agency cia promptly said well we don't we don't do that anymore and if you read their language carefully in their statements especially in the 1990s they're very lawyerly in their denials it's very clear that there are relationships so what i am suggesting and i guess this is the conspiracy angle here but i i would suggest that there are uh proxies that work with national security elements look it's an open revolving door in much of our society anyway uh most of us is out in the open i think that there are relationships friendly relationships

1:31:59 uh with academic and with media and uh political as well where where you have uh the herders who basically keep the underlings in line and every now and then someone gets out of line and they have to be dealt with but so i think that that's how the culture is created and it has a top-down effect and most people they don't want to be superman they have their jobs they have got their family they got their things they can't fight the machine so they just they live their lives and hope that someone else takes it on and there are documents that mr dolan can tell you about the internal documents in the air force and others where they consciously instruct their officers to ridicule and debunk people is a specific official policy inside the air force people they know positively have seen one of these things to try to destroy their credibility yeah in the robertson panel which is a famous cia symposium that took place in uh january of 1953

1:33:00 in fact they used the word debunk it's in the document itself as the colonel says you know specifically assigned to go out and ridicule them and tell them they're ridiculous and most people can't stand up against that kind of thing coming from authority right was the last act of the truman administration it was the last weekend of harry truman's presidency that this classified panel took place and it was specifically related to ufos very interesting little historical factoid there and as daniel just pointed out its conclusion was this is a necessary topic and we must debunk it to the american people this is not a good thing for them to be uh thinking about thank you and they're working with the media to do that thank you thank you thank you very much uh from where was the balloon the mogul balloon that was supposed to have been the roswell incident from where was it supposedly launched yeah the mogul i thought there were at

1:34:03 white sands alamogordo that area we we have the record i'm so sorry from where you know what a pie ball is it's it's a high altitude balloon that they track they launch them and then track them so they can keep track of the upper air currents but if when it was launched when marcel launched the thing he would have been probably standing right in front of base ops because that's where they send them up from from where base operations you see the fighter squadrons or bomber squadrons or whatever they have their own particular area but transient airplanes always launch from operation how close is one of those to it's on roswell base so that what they're saying is that the balloon was launched there and crashed there yes well i don't know where exactly that it crashed see these balloons were supposed

1:35:04 to be determining uh possible uh soviet nuclear detonations uh i'm just curious where they thought because if it was launched somewhere the probability that landing at roswell was was vanishingly small you know i had a course in advanced statistics and it's vanishingly small probability sir the uh the united states air force in their 1994 reports said these were launched out of white sands and um you know and actually they had a a schedule of of a number of these balloon launches that uh went down and were recovered so there were several that were from um the spring of 1947 and in fact they uh speculated that this wasn't really a slam dunk but they they indicated that the um that they thought that they'd identified the one launch that was in fact supposedly the roswell crash and i'm trying to remember the date on that yeah as has been mentioned the curious thing about all of this is in the gao

1:36:07 there was nothing for them to look at because all of the relevant information had been destroyed they had no idea at whose command had been destroyed and you know this is very unorthodox it should have been there kind of interesting isn't it i was a member of the uh of the science and technology committee i think it was simply called the science committee then when the ship held this uh i thought it was a hearing apparently it was a and it was what in about 94 or five i came to the congress in 93 and i remember his his interest in that when i was first approached about this week's activities i was cautioned that if you do this you could possibly be relegated to the lunatic fringe and this may not be good for uh for your potential activities for the rest of uh political productive life i'm 87 in five weeks i don't know how much remains anyhow this but i said you know i'm going to do this because i think there's a constitutional very serious

1:37:08 constitutional issue involved here whether there are ufos or not whether they are extraterrestrial or not is really quite irrelevant to whether or not there ought to be hearings on this because the first amendment to the constitution says the right of the people to petition the government for a redress of grievances mr sheehan doesn't this fall in within that oh yes there's there's no there's no doubt about this uh the but but the fact the fact of the matter is in a national security state from the net passage of the national security act of 1947 there has been an entire caveat on the that things that fall under national security and when oliver north can sit right in front of you say sure i lied to the congress because this was a covert operation you know that we're in charge you're not in charge and so there's there's an entire national security state kind of

1:38:08 subculture that believes that they have the right not only to hold information back from congress but to openly defy congress when you pass the boland amendment prohibiting them from engaging in the covert operations against nicaragua they go ahead and do it anyhow the danger is a national security state and if it arose in the context of the cold war with the soviet union we should move very aggressively at the end of the cold war to try to disassemble some of those structures of the national security state not try to create a new so that they went searching very quickly for some ultimate other that they had to find and they ended up having you know afghanistan or iran or iraq it's a it's a mindset and and it's that that whole kind of retrenchment into a defensive position in the face of the ultimate other and it's a it's an ultimate mindset that we have to try to overcome and as i point out that it's it's a theological issue because that is a is a malfunction of our intellect and it cuts us off from our harmonious

1:39:08 relationship not only with the rest of the universe but all other intelligent species in the universe and that's that's what we have to address i think it's a worldview issue for thank you for 20 years in the congress i served on the armed services committee and i remembered eisenhower's caution as he left office that we should be concerned about the military industrial complex i understand that in the original draft it was military industrial congressional complex and he didn't he didn't want to be too political so he took out the congressional it's too bad he did that because this really is a military industrial congressional complex the f-35 is built in in 48 states there are 96 senators and i don't know how many hundred representatives to support the f-35 not because we may need it because it creates jobs and you know too many of us cannot make cannot differentiate for between jobs that consume wealth and

1:40:10 jobs that create wealth yeah it's it sounds it's on the front page of the washington post today you look at the headlines of the washington post and it says that the sequester of trying to cut back on the military budget the all the arguments are coming out now we can't do that because of all the jobs in the employment you know i mean it's an old it's an old saw we've developed a an economy that is so reliant upon military spending that in fact it drives the policies to go looking for and if we lose the adversary of the soviet union on december 31st of 1991 with the dissolving of the soviet union that takes them less than a few years to find another one and if you have to go so desperately that you're looking to afghanistan and in iran as being your ultimate threat to the most powerful nation in the history of the human civilization there's a motive for that and it's not because they're threatening you when we had a hearing on this in the congress about the economic effects i wouldn't have thought it was chairman i wouldn't have held the hearing

1:41:11 economic effects of sequestration and when it came time for my question my five minutes i said suppose when we left here tonight we broke all the windows out of this and we did that all over washington and overnight a crew came in and replaced all of those broken windows and we did this every day we broke out all the windows and the crew would replace them all wouldn't that create a lot of jobs just think of the jobs that that would create you know i and my question was do you think that would have a long-term beneficial effect on the economy i wanted to understand the difference between jobs that create wealth and jobs that consume wealth well we've been talking about the constitution why i'm here i'm here because i think that the congress owes the american people a hearing on this subject you may be dead wrong there may be nothing to ufos that is irrelevant you have a right to petition the government for redress or grievances

1:42:12 all of my questions have been anticipated by my colleagues thank you all very much for a very good and we'll now stand in recess for lunch thank you