Citizen Hearing 2013: Roswell, Part 1

0:04 so if you're willing to do that go ahead and stand and stan you can do it a second time that's fine please repeat after me i do hereby that i will tell the truth and i will tell the truth and nothing but the truth to this committee today to this committee today thank you distinguished congresswomen and good afternoon and i personally would like to thank you for this opportunity to speak out on behalf of the many now pass through the portals of history unable to speak for themselves men and women who have served this country selflessly and with honor who are witnesses to something extraordinary something beyond the human condition most would maintain their sworn silence for a lifetime

1:04 others would eventually confide to their immediate loved ones or to us the truth of the matter moreover to these who this panel represents today who so valiantly fought for freedom during world war ii who saved the world from nazi the fates were not finished with their with such devotion to their country within two years of the surrender of germany and japan they would be called on again to lead us into an unprecedented awareness that we may be under another another invader however this time not from any destination but conceivably from across the vast distance of space prior to the summer of 1947 visitors from other planets were strictly the fancy of science fiction writers for lack of outside influence spaceships were rockets and spacemen looked like our neighbors down the street all of which were portrayed in popular

2:06 tv series such as flash gordon and buck rogers during that time period the summer of 1947 would forever change that perception among others highly skilled and professional people such as college professors astronomers and commercial pilots were observing flying disks and military fighters were scrambled on these reported unknown aerial objects from all accounts they outperformed and the best we could throw at the newly arrived phenomenon their very words flying saucers would forever become part of our vernacular many assumed they were of american design many believed soviet but then something happened in the high desert of new mexico which would alter the course of history ironically the first atomic bomb wing the 509 bomb group was stationed at in 1947 this was a composite group

3:06 assigned in the final months of the war comprised of the best officers pilots and their crews doctors nurses all in one unit all with top security the elite within the united states military their mission to drop one and if necessary additional atomic bombs on japan two years later they would have another mission unlike the first this was an assignment to retrieve something which had dropped out of the sky in addition for those who knew the truth the stars would beckon with even greater brightness on july 8th of 1947 the roswell army announced to the world they had captured a flying saucer on a ranch north of town this is a matter of historic facts the tractors would suggest that other ufo accounts are based on a faulty premise that the

4:06 phenomenon exists the roswell incident in 1947 does not any preconceived misinterpretation of the event it entirely rests on the premise that the united states army air corps recovered a crashed flying saucer historically the first explanation lasted for all of five hours as it slowly evolved from something otherworldly into a very off-the-shelf weather balloon device please allow me to propound a for everyone here present would any of have any difficulty identifying such as rubber wooden sticks reflective masking tape and string no need to raise your hands as a continuing insult to the integrity and intelligence of the very personnel who were in charge of the atomic bomb at

5:09 officialdom after 65 years of ridicule and defamation of eyewitnesses insists that this elite military squadron would all raise their the balloon that was assembled and launched daily by these same personnel somehow morphed into wreckage that even by today's standards defied conventional explanation dozens of witnesses have described to us metal-like material that could not be damaged by any standard means yet you could crumble it up crush it into a ball release your grip and it would open up and flow like water over your hands weather balloon not a single witness to that alternative explanation since that time due to eyewitness along with the assistance of one of your esteemed colleagues the late congressman stephen schiff of new mexico it caused the pentagon to issue two

6:11 additional solutions to what was recovered back in 1947 the third being project mogul which was the exact same balloon contraption with the inclusion of an acoustic device the fourth and most baseless of all time traveling wooden crash dummies five years later in 1952 even jay leno made just about such father after the pentagon disclosed its fourth version editorial writers and newspaper cartoonists lampooned the very suggestion and proponents indicted proponents as the real dummies to think we now have four official versions of one historic event even politicians can't get away with that however which is the consensus of the which of the four would provide sufficient evidence albeit

7:12 circumstantial in any court of law former u.s attorney general joseph de has stated quote circumstantial evidence is often stronger than eyewitness because it's based on the facts when you have footprints in the snow it proves someone was there end quote the roswell incident has produced hundreds of footprints not in the snow but rather in the desert soil of new mexico sworn affidavits and a growing list of deathbed testimonies confessions all stating that the first press release about the recovery of the flying saucer was the correct one as attorneys you all know that deathbeds are admissible if we were to dismiss the roswell then we would have to to deny all such end of life declarations there should be no

8:14 just because we do not like their the proponents of a new theory and ideas are rightfully pressed for answers yet whether one is able to offer evidence either pro or khan should not be the issue rather the where after years of inquiry and there still remains questions the mystery continues alone should generate further doubt and to do otherwise and persist in ignoring one of the most significant discoveries of all time may be one of the greatest mistakes in the history of humanity to paraphrase shakespeare's hamlet there are more things in heaven and earth horatio than are in your dreams thank you thank you for the record would you give a little bit of your background just briefly

9:15 my background i worked for the us postal service for about 25 years and i graduated laude from concordia university in wisconsin i was a special investigator for the late dr j ellen heineck of the center for ufo studies in chicago i was his i would become the center's director of special investigations for 10 years i sat on their board of directors for 10 and to date we have interviewed over 600 either directly or indirectly involved which have provided us with an opportunity to write four best-selling books on the roswell incident the roswell movie which style starred comic lachlan martin sheen dwight yoakam was based on our first book ufo crash at roswell so it's been quite an adventure but i need emphasize to the panel that i was a complete skeptic we thought we would make a single trip down to new

10:15 mexico and in a single weekend wrapped this up either coming away convinced that this was nothing more than a weather balloon or something else just as conventional upon speaking with first-hand witnesses describing those very characteristics i of the material of the wreckage we realized that we needed to get back and continue tracking down as many as quickly as we could we realized that we were potentially on one of the biggest stories of all time thank you for your your passion and your commitment to what you've been doing well thank you uh mr friedman you're an old witness here so you know the rules i am the oldest witness i don't even close to us go ahead you're uh i'd like to show the uh the obstacles the uh visuals that i supplied just to go through them quickly

11:16 very quickly biggest study ever done for the united states air force project blue book special report 14. 3 sightings never referred to by the the next one please symposium on unidentified flying objects those are the hearings of july 29th 1968 i was the youngest then of the contributors to that 254 pages well worth looking at the next one please dr j allen heineck's book he was only the air force project blue book consultant for 20 years and chairman of the department of astronomy at you'd think when astronomers take wax at ufos they would at least look at alan's but they don't the next one there's the university of colorado study 965 pages 539 thousand dollars it cost us uh the press gave the

12:19 vision that this proved there was nothing to flying saucers a more careful look at the report shows that uh 30 of the 117 cases studied in detail could not be identified you didn't hear that when the report came out so let's get those out of the way and then we'll go on to my prepared testimony here uh people have often asked me why i think ayleids would want to visit earth i have noted many reasons graduate students doing their thesis research on a primitive society mining of dense metals as we have the densest planet in the solar system etc but the most important to me is that i consider all civilizations would be concerned about their own survival and security that means keeping tabs on those primitive societies in the neighborhood that show signs of being able to bother by july 1947 it was clear to any aliens

13:20 in the neighborhood that we have a primitive society whose major activity is tribal warfare and that's soon less than 100 years which is nothing on a cosmic time scale we'll be able to visit aliens out there taking our brand of friendship everybody else calls it hostility the facts that demonstrate that are nuclear weapons powerful rockets and radar the beginning of advanced isn't it amazing that the only place in the world at that time where you could study all three of these was southeastern new our first nuclear weapon was detonated at trinity site white sands missile range july 16th 1945 white sands is where we're testing captured german v2 rockets and some of our own and that's where we had our best radar to track the rockets sometimes they went south instead of and of course as it turns out there were at least three flying saucer crashes in new mexico

14:20 in early july 1947 there was a crash near the small town of corona less than 80 miles from roswell army airfield in nearby roswell 100 miles west there was an unpublicized crash at about the same time the plains saint augustine new book coming out this year about that not by me book by arthur campbell and there was a crash retrieval operation in aztec new in the four corners area march 1948. new book is available i was the first to hear about the corona crash as discussed in my book crash in corona with don berliner simple story i began lecturing about flying saucers in 1967 while working as a nuclear physicist in industry for little companies such as gegm westinghouse etc in 1978 i was in baton rouge louisiana to speak at louisiana state university i was at a tv station to do three

15:21 to promote my lecture that evening at i've done two of the interviews the third reporter was nowhere to be found the station manager knew he had other things to do was giving me coffee looking at his watch he was embarrassed but he wanted to keep me there for that interview uh out of the blue he said the guy you really ought to talk to is jesse marcel he handled the wreckage of one of those saucers when he was in the military i practically dropped my teeth what do you know about him he lives in houma that didn't tell me anything because i didn't know where houma was it's a big city in louisiana and i did visit there later to speak to we are ham radio buddies he told me the station manager you should talk to him okay the third reporter i've heard lots of stories and you've sort of put in your gray basket we'll see what we can do it was a great crowd the next day that

16:22 night and the next day i was at the airport early called information got a number for jesse marcel and called him he told me a story as i found out later he couldn't deny his involvement as his name was in papers across the country i didn't know it when i called him people say why did he talk to you well he didn't have a choice he had to talk to somebody because he couldn't say about it when it was public record soon there after i heard about the plains of san agustin crash after a lecture in bemidji minnesota i shared both stories with an old colleague from pittsburgh bill moore who lived in minnesota he had a third story from the flying saucer review in the uk which is still being published which is rather amazing now that it's gone on this long an english actor named newey green had noted that he heard about a crash saucer in new mexico when driving from los angeles to the date was recalled as early july 1947 that was not a trip you made very often back then

17:24 you can imagine what the roads were like at that time bill went to the university of minnesota the newspaper department found the story verifying what i've been told giving us new names the next year and a half we found 62 in conjunction with that case that went up to 92 a few years later and these guys have added i don't know how many hundred since then the most remember we're talking about the most elite military group in the i got lucky i called the roswell daily record which i hadn't known existed before that looked an editor in publisher i mentioned that i had some articles noting a crash of a saucer as reported by a walter holt out and spelled four different ways and i was shocked to be told before i could finish the sentence oh his wife works here

18:24 boy talk about serendipity how lucky can you get i talked to the wife talked to walter he was a big help to all of us in our research on roswell well thought of throughout the roswell community i found the son of the rancher the telephone operators were nice then i said i'd like to find anybody named what city i don't know southeastern new she said oh i've got a william brazile in karazozo is that in southeastern new mexico yes okay let's take it he had just gotten his phone two weeks before so how lucky can you get i guess uh now one i i planned one of the people that shows up in a key picture that got what very wide distribution is at that time colonel thomas jefferson uh chief of staff to general roger amy head of the 8th air force which is where the 509th was

19:24 this is in fort worth texas i checked with west point son of a gun he was still alive he was in his 80s and he was very forthcoming when i went to visit him and don and i went down there and we have it on tape i've got a dvd out there our interview with uh general retired general dubose you don't often get a chance to talk to a general about something that's several of us here will be speaking at the roswell festival which is early july much of the early roswell research i better stress was done before the internet it was hard work finding people you called information hope they knew something and so forth and you're very lucky that today a key witness is right here colonel jesse a marcel jr a medical doctor called back in the army

20:27 at age 68 to fight in iraq flew over 200 combat hours as a flight surgeon in helicopters his father was major jesse marcel and he also handled wreckage in 1947. there are many roswell debunkers who do their research by proclamation not their motto is don't bother me with the facts my mind is made up what the public doesn't know i won't tell them we have all found these people as a physicist i want facts not fantasy so i am most grateful for this opportunity to be here thank you very much our next witness is also a military i'd like to just point out one thing that came up several days in the earlier hearings and that was the that nondisclosure agreements were proffered and

21:28 many people were forced into signing these non-disclosure agreements you take an oath when you go into the military to the constitution not to the president not to a general not to an admiral you take it to the constitution to defend the country and many times you have better judgment on what is defending the country than many of our leaders so colonel with that cavalia i want you to come forward first of all let me point out that i prepared a document last night for you all that deals with project blue book and how it the orchestra it was orchestrated to be closed by the military it was a planned uh operation to to end project blue book and that was circulated i think this my name is kevin randle and i'm a retired lieutenant colonel with more than 20 years of service with the army the air force and the national i served on active duty as a helicopter pilot in vietnam and as an intelligence officer in iraq i served on both active duty and in the

22:30 active reserve with the air force and ended my military career as the provost marshal in the iowa national guard i have published more than 20 books about ufos starting with the ufo casebook in 1989 and currently ending with alien mysteries conspiracies and cover-ups just this last month i've been working on a book about what can be found in the government files about ufos for the last several months in 1988 i was at a science fiction convention and participated in a debate about ufos with some of the top science fiction writers in the world these included frederick and i believe george rr martin who i mentioned here today just because of his in recent months when it was over don talked to me about the roswell ufo crash and said that the center for ufo studies was beginning some research into it he thought my military background might be a benefit because many of the witnesses were retired military and of course many of the witnesses had been members of the military at the time of the events one of the first things i noticed was that colonel thomas dubose had been

23:31 identified as general roger ramey's aid but brigadier generals don't have a full colonel as an aide dubose was the chief of staff a much more important position dubose would later provide some very interesting testimony about what had been seen and done including include transferring the roswell debris to sac headquarters in washington d.c at the time all documented on videotape we made our trip to roswell in february 1989. we started in albuquerque and had a meeting with frank joyce but when we arrived joyce begged off saying that he was ill we met with a group of ufo researchers in albuquerque but they turned out to be a group of people more interested in the new age phenomenon and not exactly ufo researchers at any they had nothing of interest for us and they had no insights into the roswell we headed to roswell and met with cliff stone he knew a great deal about ufos but was unable to shed any insights into the roswell case other than the crash site was beyond twin

24:31 twin windmills we thought this might be a really good clue until we saw how many twin mill windmills there were in new mexico our last interview was with bill brazel son of mack who had found the debris i didn't hold out much hope for this but when we when we met with him in carrizosa new mexico he was able to provide us with some very interesting information we chatted for a few minutes and then brazil said to us my dad found this thing and we were off bill told us what had happened to his father mack how he had been held at the base in roswell for a number of days how he'd been asked not to talk about it i suppose you could say he was sworn to though there didn't seem to be any threats made to him and no document signed mack didn't even tell his son bill much about what he had seen bill told us that he was out on the ranch in the next couple of years where the object had crashed or at least touched down briefly where he where his dad had found this debris he would look for some of it he described for us on audio tape three

25:32 items that he found over the years a piece of wood like material that was so tough he couldn't get a sliver on it when he tried to carving carving on it with his pocketknife which he said he used to car cut barbed wire he said it was also that was very lightweight it was brown it seemed to be like balsa wood he found a bit of wire that he said you could shine a light into one end and it would come out the other which of course is fiber optics and he had a piece of foil the famous foil that could be crushed into a ball and then unfold itself without a sign of a wrinkle or a crease bill showed it to his father who said that looks like some of the contraption i found at this point we realized that there was more than a misidentified weather as the air force had suggested in 1947 it was clear from the descriptions of the material that brazil himself had held which he described for us was not something that had been manufactured on we knew that there was a lot more work to be done i located former

26:33 major later retired colonel edwin easley who was a provost marshal in the base in nineteen forty seven the provost marshal is similar to the chief of police in a city but a provost marshal also has a number of other revolving around security easily because this was an atomic strike force had a greater responsibility of officers of a similar grade at other military installations he told me on audio tape several times that he'd been sworn to finally somewhat exasperated with my questions he said i can't talk about it i promised the president that i wouldn't now i don't know if he talked to president truman personally or a representative of the president which is about the same thing but whatever the circumstance he believed he'd promised the president he wouldn't talk about it skeptics ask would the president talk to a major and i say an obscure lieutenant colonel talked to the president and the doolittle raid was born easily

27:34 confirmed that brazil had been held on the base for several days he said that brazo was held in the guest house which is not jail but if you have a guard on the door and you're not allowed to leave it really doesn't matter how comfortable the quarters are it still qualifies as a i will note that we can prove brazil was in roswell after he first reported the fine based on the documentation we have neighbors tell us he complained to them about being held there marion strickland one of the neighbors said on videotape that brazil had been gone for several days and he was mad about it so easily confirmed part of the story for us easy was also asked by me if the crass craft was extraterrestrial what happened is that i asked if we were following the right path he said what do you mean i said we think it was extraterrestrial and he said well that's not the wrong path every member of colonel blanchard's staff blanchard being the commanding officer in roswell at the time

28:34 and who later was in line to be chief of staff of the air force gave us a variation of that major jessie marcel senior and air force the air force intelligence officer at the time said on videotape it seems that it was something that came to earth but it was not something made on earth let me say here that the skeptics have attempted to slander the memory of blanchard by suggesting he was a loose cannon which explains his handling of the discovery in the press release that he ordered issued but his ratings not long after the rods will crash by his superior officers he was rated quite high and there was nothing mentioned about the roswell case a loose cannon is not promoted to general and is not destined to be the chief of staff major patrick saunders the base adjudant who wouldn't talk much about it roswell case when i interviewed him did leave some documentation for us he wrote on the fly leaf to the book ufo crash at roswell here's the truth and i still haven't told anybody and he signed it pat this page is called

29:34 damage control and it tells that files were altered that they changed personnel records and the code words and that the bodies in the craft were removed from roswell in a letter to his daughter which he sent to me saunders talked about how they had successfully hid the paper walter hot the man who wrote the press release announcing that they had captured a flying saucer signed an affidavit about what he had which included craft and bodies hot said that in his position as pio that he often operated as colonel blanchard's aide to camp a colonel not being authorized and aid there's been some controversy about hot statement because for 20 years that i knew him he had always said that he just wrote the press release he didn't know anything beyond that he didn't see anything beyond that then in the affidavit sign and released after his death he said that he had seen the bodies it was a direct contradiction of what he had claimed ten years before

30:37 i interviewed a fellow named richard he was a finance officer at the roswell army airfield and he helped patrick saunders bury the expenditure of money let me digress here for just a moment everything has to be paid for by the military or in the military and all expenditures must be accounted for you can't send an aircraft on a training flight for example without naming a funding source for that of course you can have a cross-country training flight from roswell to right field in dayton ohio a perfectly legitimate expense and you can always put the wreckage of an alien craft or the bodies on the flight without having to notice it or note it the the flight is paid for out of the training budget and there is no need to mention the genesis of the mission which is to take the stuff to ohio so harris confirmed some of what saunders had said but more importantly he told me that he'd seen the bodies or he had an opera almost in the bodies according to harris he was in a hangar where the bodies were temporarily

31:39 relocated and uh hot asked him if he wanted to see them harris said that he put his hand on the doorknob no but he didn't turn it this stunned me given the chance i would have opened the door but in that's today in 1947 harris said that he didn't want to see that but it confirms to an extent what walter hawk said about seeing the bodies and as i say harris told me this 10 years before walter hot mentioned anything like that now i have noticed i have just a minute left and i had some interesting things i wanted to cover but let me just say this the air force claimed this was project they the documentation suggests it was flight number four but when we look at the diary uh created by dr albert crairy who is the leader of the project he said flight number four had been canceled there was no flight number four there is a note that says that they had made it some kind of a test flight but it's not part of the official record of

32:39 the project in new mexico mogul by the way was not highly class classified the equipment was off the what they were doing in new mexico was published in the newspapers and were still according to the documentation these flights had to be announced in the faa notems these notices to airmen were items that could affect aerial navigation an array of balloons some 600 feet long drifting along tens of thousands of feet fit that definition moore was aware of that in 1995 wrote that they had not conte contacted the faa because they didn't expect this mythical flight number four to leave the restricted area i wanted to mention one final thing and i see my time has expired but on july 8th they made the press release on july 9th according to the newspapers the july the united press reported reports of flying saucers whizzing through the sky fell off sharply today as the army and the navy began a concentrated campaign to stop the rumors

33:42 the question is what happened to make them stop on july 9th when they had published everything else i will say this in 1947 the air force said what fell at roswell was a weather balloon when they made their investigation the mid 1990s they said they lied about this it wasn't a weather balloon it was a weather balloon they just changed the name it counted a cluster of balloons it was nothing special about them they were just weather weather balloons tethered together in a long train but it did not answer the why did the service members at roswell fail to identify it as such why could they not identify a weather balloon no matter what name you apply to thank you very much thank you and and thank you for the brevity uh of your statements thus far i want to clear up something because we've got three marcels there we're talking about your father uh who was a major intelligence officer is that correct yes

34:43 okay then you're a colonel in the army uh that was a medical doctor in addition to that and then you've got your son you you'd be marcel number two he's marcel number three okay now and and your position at this point and then we've got denise who i presume is your wife sister okay so we got so we got the whole family here and we're going to get testimony from all of you appreciate that and so colonel please proceed yes sir and the son of major jesse marcel who was the intelligent officer for the 501 composite bomb group based out of army airfield in 1947. the 509th as you may recall was the squadron who ended the war with the atomic bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki my dad's conditions obviously were very in the course of his career he was not only one of the few officers selected for the 509th

35:43 but he also went to radar school and and also was a staff member of the air force intelligence officer the radar school was important because uh in that he would have been very familiar with all kind of weather balloons and radar targets and and the paraphernalia associated with this kind of a device you know weather balloon or mogul balloon but a balloon is still a balloon with off-the-shelf material i myself followed a career in medicine graduating from the lsu school of medicine in 1961 and i joined the military shortly after my graduation and internship my first taste of the military was being stationed on board the uss renville uh which was a troop transport ship uh destined for cuba we spent uh several weeks staying around in circles south of cuba in preparation for the invasion which fortunately never happened or else i wouldn't be here

36:46 yeah really and i ended my career as an army colonel in december of 2005. after a 13-month tour in iraq where i 200 hours of combat flying and you know things like that just having fun out there really and i i did not come home entirely unscathed however i got severe ptsd from all the rigor and also developed a weakness in my legs that they think is related to some sort toxic contamination that i became exposed to in iraq but that's neither here nor there actually my story for the roswell part began in the wee hours in the morning of july 1947 when i was awakened by my dad who was returning from an assignment to collect debris of unknown origin from a ranch out of roswell this is the foster ranch and this is the debris that mack brazil had run across

37:46 apparently the rancher by the name of mack brazil notified the local sheriff of chavez county of the downing of some sort of aircraft on his land he was not quite sure what the nature of this was he'd seen weather balloons you know go down there before so he was not sure it was that either but it was something very the sheriff in chavez county contacted colonel blanchard who was a commander of the air force base in roswell now colonel blanchard knew my dad was the intelligence officer so he dispatched my dad and a cic agent sheridan cavall to investigate what this was whether it was one of our planes or just whatever's an unknown crash site it was their job to go ahead and ascertain what was out there and bring representative portions of this back to the base so they could study it to determine make a final determination of as it turns out our house happened to be

38:46 on the way to the base and this is in the wee hours of the morning so my dad knowing that he had seen something very special wanted my mother myself to look at this also because as he said you'll never see this again so what he did he stopped off with the awakened my mother and myself and again the wee hours in the morning it's summertime i've been playing all day with my bicycles and things like that i was 11 years old at the time however and he brought us into the kitchen and saw a smattering of this strange debris on the kitchen floor that he had pre-positioned he said look at this i think this is what you call a flying saucer or remains uh i was not quite sure what a flying saucer was at that time because i was more interested in bicycling and find you know using my 22 rifle for practice but at any rate uh he the first thing he wanted us to do or me particularly was check the debris

39:47 out make sure there was no electronic components there looking for vacuum tubes resistors uh condensers and things like that uh but there wasn't any uh there's and he already knew that but he wanted me to satisfy my own curiosity as this uh the debris itself consisted of three components three types uh there was a foil a very tough metallic foil of some nature that i can't really describe i had to add that i did not see the bending and unbending of it but my dad witnessed it he said it would if you fold it over it'd unfold and assume its original form in addition there was a black plastic droopery like a broken phonograph record but the strangest thing i saw was as being passed around right now was that this is a replica of one of the i-beams or the beams i saw in the wreckage uh in that you'll note there's some symbols written along the inside surface of this and uh they are

40:49 violent hue semi-reflective of light uh and but this is basically what this uh is this a replica yes sir this is a if it was original i wouldn't have it oh you never know i wish that's why we're asking that's right so uh uh but anyway my dad uh uh drove the debris into the base that i think it was that night maybe early next morning where he is uh assigned by dr colonel blanchard to fly the material to general ramy's office in fort worth this was flown in the belly of a b-29 under armed guard so my dad next i then saw a picture of my dad in general remy's office holding what was obviously a radar target they'd already switched the debris and look on his face is quite telling he you got to be kidding me this is not what i saw and this is not what i saw either but at any rate that's where the cover began at

41:50 general ramy's office so uh when my dad got home he sat my mother and myself down and said in no uncertain terms you will never talk about this this is a non-event and uh yes sir i was normally branch off was following order so i never discussed this with my friends or anybody else until after stan friedman interviewed my dad in 1978. great so thank you thank you very much let me re-emphasize as a military officer you took an oath to the not to general raymie or to anybody else it's the constitution okay uh we moved now to your son jesse uh the third third yep marcel marcel is a french name message thank you to distinguished members of the committee i am here today not to speak as an expert witness to what i have heard

42:50 and researched about roswell but simply to help you get no two great men my grandfather major jesse marcel senior and my father dr jessie marcel my grandfather was a simple man who just wanted to lead a simple life closer to the bike please sorry i could restate that my grandfather was a simple man who just wanted to lead a simple life starting a very early age when he wasn't helping the family of the farm he would sneak away to find parts to build radios later in his life before entering the war he would use his skills to build a ham radio that would become a lifelong passion he would spend endless hours chatting with people from around the world things would change rapidly as we were pulled into the second world war on his own accord he went from his job as a civilian draftsman to join the war where he excelled in his duties from the very beginning his superiors recognized adapted towards problem solving and seemed to sent him to intelligence school again he excelled in his courses and was asked to

43:51 teach the next incoming class he would eventually end up in the roswell air force base working in our nuclear bombing program with a 509th composite with the war over and a life returning to a sense of normalcy grandpa would receive a simple order an order that would change his and most of our lives forever the heavens would open up and send us a visitor that would establish the words alien and flying saucer in the english vernacular and it was him they sent to investigate decades later my father followed in grandpa's footsteps as a military man serving the navy to train to be a medical doctor soon after he would settle down in clancy montana to raise a family and continue in the reserves to become a helicopter pilot as the only nt i remember as a child going with my father on his rounds not the ones to the hospital but the ones where he would visit his parents in their homes he would carry in his little black bag and take care of his patients in the same caring way he would take care of the rest of us back in the office if a child showed up in a radish and ratty shoes to his appointment a new pair would be

44:52 waiting for him on the next visit i remember very fondly watching him not only build oscilloscope but his design and construction of a computer guidance system for the telescope long before there was such a at least on an amateur level he would spend endless hours wrapping small green glass switches that would eventually become the brain in the summer we would all pile into a van rv or whatever form of transformation that we'd have available to us and head to home louisiana where my grandparents had lived or had returned to live out the rest of their lives i remember so clearly driving down the shell covered road leading up to their house with the most notable feature being a huge ground greenhouse that easily equaled the size of their residents that my grandfather lovingly built for his wife vio my grandmother had a green thumb like no other my father would send her a tomato plant that would barely survive the short montana summers into immense vegetation that reached the florida ceiling each morning my grandfather would lead me to a shop occupying a space view in the house in the garage he'd reach up to the rafters and pull

45:52 down fishing poles that had been there for decades these poles were not made of fiberglass but a bamboo very simple but effective their trade i recall leaning against a table saw in his workshop watching him attach the reel with a hand that was missing a digit from some longer battle with that same table saw he would add the weights and the bobber from two rusty old tackle boxes and finished the session off of showing me how to delicately hook the worm without issuing myself all this was not always the case we would make our way to the back door and out on those lawn that was that ran up against the bayou after a couple cats we could sit back and talk to enjoy each other's company my grandfather's other great obsessions were sports lsu provided the teams he most favored and occupied his weekend tv viewing hours i'll always remember grandpa as a gentle giant who somehow lived the life of a southern gentleman who would be at least partially responsible for changing the way people of our world would look into the night skies auntie themselves maybe just maybe somebody was looking back today i share these same stories i learned as a child with my own kids

46:53 roswell is a new type of conversation between the kids and their teachers in elementary school school the legacy will go on thank you thank you very much and now for your sister well first of all i also want to thank the committee for taking the time to listen to our family's history my name is denise marcel i am the granddaughter of major jesse marcel and the daughter of retired colonel dr marcel jr my grandfather was the first military officer at a ufo crash site in roswell new mexico while there he collected some of the crash site debris he was so amazed by the characteristics of the debris he decided he had to show my father and grandmother and whatever it was that they had seen it has had a great impact on our family when we moved to clancy montana in the early 70s my father built a telescope in our backyard now this wasn't one of your average ordinary telescopes to start he dug a hole in our backyard the size of a small room

47:53 for months i remember my mother and us kids helping him polish this very large from there he began constructing the telescope including building a rotating this was a telescope that was later loaned to the helena astronomy and he had built this from top to bottom my dad who was a man who had witnessed this was a man who was driven that telescope opened up a whole new world for our family it was around the age of nine that i first became aware of ufos not only because of the telescope but also because there were times my father and his kids would camp out at night specifically looking for movement in the sky is hoping to catch a glimpse of a ufo one has to remember we didn't have the internet then and ufos were not discussed like they are today i do not think that my parents would lead us to believe at such a young age that ufos existed if my father and grandfather had not witnessed something extraordinary in january of 1997 i accompanied my father and kent jeffries

48:53 to washington dc for a hypnosis session dr neil hibbler would conduct over the course of three days dr hibbler was one of the world's leading experts who used hypnotic regressions for forensic purposes i had been very fortunate to be able to participate because i had just been certified as a certified as a hypnotherapist the sessions were successful while under hypnosis my father said he couldn't believe how vividly he could see his dad i saw the emotion in his face and how it touched his heart seeing his father so clearly that day during the sessions my father recalls being woken up by my grandfather telling him to come and look at a piece of a flying saucer a term in which most people including himself was not familiar with when asked about the materials my father's descriptions did not waver from what he had been describing throughout the years one of the more interesting facets of the debris descriptions are the symbols or hieroglyphics that my father had seen on the i-beam while under hypnosis the facts remain

49:54 the same just like when he was a child he motioned grabbing the eye beam and holding it above his head to get a better look at the purple reflecting symbols the military claimed that these symbols were merely christmas wrapped tape but it is very unlikely and does not seem possible that three people did not simple holiday decorations on some scotch tape another interesting fact my father recalled was that soon after the incident his father told the family never to talk about it again that it was a non-event now why would they have to remain silent about a weather real balloon eye doesn't make any sense to me it has been said that since my father did not remember anything new from those and did not remember seeing any exotic debris electronic opponents or anything that resembled motors which they were specifically looking for this mural material could not have been from a ufo that the material was just too mundane i believe this argument works against itself because it had been some radar device there should have been some very

50:54 basic electronic components and it would have been mundane therefore my grandfather would never brought it home to show his family the only explanation that he brought this home was because he was very excited about what he had found my grandfather and father were very dedicated military men and always followed through with their orders they both remained silent to the public about the incident until my grandfather had been approached by stanton friedman nearly 30 years after the event during interviews grandfather was asked about the materials and he would say quote it was not anything from this earth that i am quite sure of end quote these words would change the course of the marcel family the reason he was ordered to go to the site was because he was an intelligence familiar with most all of the materials used in aircraft and travel he was very qualified to make an assessment of the crash site debris and for the record my grandfather had nothing to gain when he spoke to stanton he just felt the same way that i do that the world should know the truth

51:55 it has affected my family's life in so many good ways and some bad but because of this i was also given the greatest gift of all and that is to have an open mind i feel that sometimes agendas are put in front of our rights of being citizens and not everything that the government has told us is the truth because when it comes to the roswell incident i believe my grandfather and my last and certainly not least it is my that from my father my grandfather and all of the other wonderful people who have found the courage to step up and tell the truth this week will be given this respect and recognition that they deserve thank you thank you i just want to say that the marcel family has a very close friend his name is richard o'connor i don't know if you've seen what he's put forth to support you so he's he's a friend of uh i want to now turn to uh our

52:56 for the members sake we have seven minutes that we can uh delve into with these people uh and i'll first turn to merrill hook to start the process yes that's thank you chair donald uh schmidt i'd like to start with you uh you said that you went down to new with an idea of doing something in the fiction area you weren't really much of a believer no but it changed your mind that was uh kevin randolph myself correct and what changed your mind is you said you met with first-hand witnesses correct i'd like to know what year that was uh that was february of 1989. okay and could you tell me who those first-hand witnesses you met with dr randall had mentioned it was the son of w.w

53:57 mack brazzo bill brazzo jr and we could also add his wife shirley who were both first-hand witnesses to the material so we should talk to them on that we had the opportunity at that time and many times thereafter including other members of the brazo family what we could also point out is that bill jr the son of the rancher was fortunate to discover additional remnants from the crash months especially after heavy rains pieces wash the surface now bear in mind we already had firsthand accounts that there were 50 to 60 troops at the debris field site for the course of two and a half to three days walking shoulder to shoulder with

54:58 wheelbarrows going to check sites it that much time to clear this site in in contrast to a weather balloon which would have taken all of them a few minutes for someone to toss over their toss into the back of a pickup truck i have almost no doubt that something crashed there that there was a lot of pickup and i just want to know exactly who it was you you talked to me you've answered that very well i'd like to we got a lot of witnesses here yes really want an opportunity to talk to up lieutenant colonel randall you had talked about work you've done to show why project air force project blue book was you used some rather negative language about it and i uh why it was just what a cover-up is what you said what happened what happened in 19 all during the 1960s there is a series of letters you see in the project blue book files where they're requesting to get project blue book out of atec into the

56:00 secretary of the air force's office of to uh uh de-emphasize the importance of project blue book okay there are okay now de-emphasizing the importance of project blue that's not exactly the same thing and you know when i look at that i'm not trying to put any words in your mouth i gotta focus in on a question here and when the university of colorado was asked to just to help him make a decision about project blue book let's put it that way and when the university of colorado wrote a report i think you're all in saying that what the report said wasn't exactly the way it was characterized even by the certainly by the government and even by well by the media as well but isn't it true that it didn't say anything about it all being nonsense it just said we don't want to additional work on collection collecting this data that we are publishing to the world i mean there are 101 incidents published that we can read about from project blue

57:00 book correct well what i'm asking it you have absolutely no faith and that's fine in the national science foundation is that what you're telling us what i'm saying i just want to make sure i go what i'm saying is that the outcome of the investigation the scientific investigation was preordained there's a letter from a lieutenant colonel hitler two committee members at continent committee at the university of colorado saying this is what we want you to find they haven't investigated a case they haven't looked at anything but here's what we want you to find you have to say something nice about the air force investigation you have to say that it does not affect national security and allow us to close it down because if you don't do that we're going to be stuck with this for another 20 years and so the university of colorado pulled the wool over the national science foundation folks during is that what you're telling us yes during and they just during the investigation i couldn't figure out that maybe there was influence from the air force on what colorado they didn't care what they were the whole purpose of the condom

58:01 committee was to end project blue book and stop the air force investigation during the continent committee's time in session they were supposed to investigate cases that came up there was a marvelous case from shag harbor canada where something was photographed in the air it was seen to hit the ground united states navy responded canadian military forces responded there's even evidence that the russians responded the continent committee's investigation was to make a phone call to canada and say oh it's just a couple of teenagers who saw something strange we're not going to bother with it and i and and you and i mean i appreciate your answer i'm going to move on not because i don't want you to have more opportunity but i'm so particularly interested in uh what uh colonel marcel dr curdle and and boy you should be proud of these children and grandchildren of jenny jesse senior you have done a wonderful job in establishing you know just that story about the

59:02 fishing pole you're talking about an honest grandfather i mean that's that you didn't have to even use that word the way you described that and and to you too denise and i'm very impressed uh with uh with you uh jesse marcel jr i mean you're one of the very few witnesses that have actually held or seen or accompanied your father with something in your hand that came from this incident or an incident that let me put it this way somebody that's a friend of mine somebody that i've listened to somebody i already said i had respect for a different party but former governor bill richardson has said to be and others with us in a discussion we had with him that you have said is honest there's no question in his mind that that debris is there it happened and what you've said about your father and doing all that is absolutely true what you've said to me here directly

1:00:04 simply reinforces something i believe because i have a lot of faith in the integrity of the man i just mentioned bill richardson but i have to say this i'm looking at your straight eyes here i know that you believe that's from an extraterrestrial source but can you say honestly to this committee that you know that for some reason or there's something that you absolutely know that the government is hiding because bill richardson agrees with you that they should open the files i agree with you they should open those roswell we should see exactly what might remain from whatever you and your father took over so yeah you you give this committee a lot of reasons for us to say open those files but i just want to hear an answer to the question i gave you years ago i was called to washington i was going to a meeting and uh there was a gentleman by the name of dick demato who wanted to interview me when i got to

1:01:05 and he was in the capitol building sent room 228 i believe as i remember right but he said he wanted to talk to me about about what i saw in roswell so i went up to the capitol building and very friendly very nice gentleman he says you know i want to we won't talk about what you saw in roswell and he asked me did i want to talk in a secure room and i said well sir i'm not going to say anything i haven't said publicly already he says but i might tell you something and uh so we'll talk in a secure room so uh we went down into the basements you know several floors down below in the capitol building and there's this beautiful meeting room there with our big table there with the with the pictures of our founding fathers across the overhead there and uh well we sat down he sat at the head of the table i sat to his right he had a legal pad to take notes on and there was a book on

1:02:06 the table too it's called majestic uh it was a book by whitley strieber which actually uh is a fictional account of a established fact there and he said this is not fiction so he admitted to me right there this is not fiction this is a story about the you know and fictionalized so it's the conclusion you came to after you had a chance to listen to some people that had analyzed some of that material i corrected that yes and i'm not necessarily saying you may have been right or wrong on that i'm just wanting to know how you arrived at your decision that you believe it is uh from non-terrestrial sources or extra terrestrial well uh you know i first time somebody in the uh in you interest sanctions of our government admitted to me that this is not fixing the roswell and i said i know it isn't so when are you guys going to tell the public about

1:03:07 and he said well you know if it's up to me i'd have done it yesterday but he says it's not up to me i'm just here to investigate the cost of the investigation cost of keeping it secret and all that he said in reality there is and these are his words uh that there's a black government which sounds really conspiratorial but that's what he said he said they have control of the debris and they answer to no one they're not elected and they have unlimited funds to and uh he says they're the ones who have it and they have control over it so uh you can tell me what that meant but that's what he said i obviously don't but thank you very to all of you for testifying uh you did a great job how long i mean i look at what happened at roswell as a something that happened a long time and that there was some put down of it

1:04:09 and there's been some fun made out of it but that a lot of people because there were enough information enough facts out that a lot of people believed that something happened there is that am i way off base i mean i'm just trying to think back a few years because it hasn't been in the paper recently it you know but that's my recollection of uh incident that there was enough proof we knew it was something other than from the united states yeah donald i as i mentioned my opening statement i like to emphasize we had the good fortune of working with and having enlisted the late congressman stephen schiff of new mexico who pushed for congressional hearings on this very matter through the early right and so much so that he had sent

1:05:10 three separate letters to then secretary of defense les aspen which all went unanswered which only uh intrigued him and raised his curiosity all the more all the more as far as well what are they hiding i'm just asking as the late senator barry goldwater and even his request to general curtis lemay can i at least see the file to which lemay said hell no and don't ever ask me again so we're in good company whether we're talking about goldwater or schiff or even former presidents bill clinton or carter who also would lament the fact that they could not get the truth about roswell but getting back to congressman schiff in his failed efforts as the press itself became more interested as to what who would win this tug of war because he was being stonewalled not only by the secretary of defense but also the white house right and then

1:06:10 the branches of the military and he had assurances specifically from the air force that should they find anything in their he would be the first one well as magazine very aptly put it as though a preemptive strike they call a press conference here at the pentagon and colonel richard weaver as colonel randall mentioned in putting out the project mogul theory same balloon it was just a re-design of the same balloon explanation and i'll never forget how i called up congressman schiff here at his office in thinking that well that would end that relationship because he would have to that new explanation that new solution to the roswell mystery and his immediate words immediate response to me was don there are a bunch of damn liars and he had assured us and you know the

1:07:13 he assured us that with his reelection coming up that we would then resume the effort well he would die shortly after his re-election age of 51. we don't read anything into that except that we lost a tremendous ally and in that there was a lot of that publicity the fact that someone within the government was sticking their nose under the curtain under the tent and for nothing more than asking to see the files and still being turned down still being told just as senator goldwater hell no and don't ask there was there was debris i mean it it crashed there was debris and talked about touching the debris and that it was not something that

1:08:14 you'd ever felt or done before is is that still around the the debris from not with us it isn't that's the problem we don't have the debris we don't have pieces what happened to it all right classified very very set the right field which is not right probably got sent to right field when we know that it got so okay where it went from there whether it went to area 51 or who knows what we don't know the security curtain slammed down very how quickly afterwards how i mean how many five hours the from the actual announcement of the recovery of the flying disc it evolved as i mentioned within five hours into the weather balloon in fact as as stanton mentioned and we brigadier junior thomas dubose who is even in two of the pictures with the substituted weather balloon

1:09:16 he stated that the balloon was a hoax that part of it they were ordered as he described to get the press off of the general's back off of general raymie's back they were the ones who substituted the for the real material and when you have a brigadier general going on the record actually stating that the official government explanation is a you would think it would get the media's attention right and that's also the dilemma that we have had with the very conception of the investigation of the roswell incident the fact that well why don't the witnesses come forward because just as jesse's father just imagine at that time he was a lieutenant colonel he was the head of intelligence of the 509th bomb group again i can't use the word enough the elite within the military head of intelligence we might even ask why with the base commander colonel

1:10:17 blanchard instead of just sending out a couple of grunts a couple of enlisted men to go check out this funny material he sends his two head of intelligence two officers follow the rancher back and investigate this firsthand on a fourth of july weekend no less see these are all the questions that the press refuses to look into but we haven't and that dilemma that as major marcel when he finally stepped forward and said being familiar with all materials both familiar and domestic this was something not made on this we didn't read about this in the papers did we wasn't on the cbs evening news the only publication to touch that was the national enquirer so we wonder why there's this this taboo this ridicule factor and it's the

1:11:19 reason that witnesses have refused to come forward after all these years because they know how it's going to be thank you thank you i want to ask colonel randall what is the significance of the july roswell incident in that we also had a significant one in july of 1945. tell me what is the significance well the events in roswell in 1947 set up the entire cover-up at that point cover-up of what cover-up of the alien okay what um what we look at is after the kenneth arnold signing on june 24 1947 there was an awful lot of stories in the newspapers about flying there was all kinds of discussion about what they were one scientist postulated that if you left a dark movie theater and you walked out into the bright sunlight you'd see spots in front of your eyes

1:12:19 this is what people were seeing didn't explain why the spots were black instead of silver there were military officers making comments at one point one officer said well we're not interested in the flying saucers anymore i don't want to know the editorial i want to know what about the roswell incident began the cover-up you just said it and no don't give me the editorial pile just stay on that part stay on the scientific part right there what happened at roswell the cover-up of the alien whatever we think that is i hate that word or whatever that is why and even yet today why in 1947 we'd just come out of a war we are worried about our competitors in the world if we can exploit this find discover the propulsion system discover the the materials how they work we take a huge step ahead of our competitors and the rest of the world so in 1947 it makes perfect sense we don't want people talking about this

1:13:19 the russians aren't going to spy on us if they don't think there's anything there to spy on so they've they've eliminated our why it persists today i am somewhat puzzled about because it would seem that we've become much more sophisticated and we would understand what's going on in the world around us and space around and i think the problem is we haven't the materials okay thank you sir that was good and now you guys who know these people you don't get to get to be a major in any of our militaries unless you're a well-respected highly decorated uh individual about our nation our family and who we are and that was your father sir congratulations on that as 11 years old testified today you witnessed the roswell incidence crash i'm saying crash you might have called it something else i don't know crash is good okay you witness particles from the crash

1:14:20 balloon notwithstanding whatever else they said notwithstanding actually saw particles of what the craft may or may not have been did you not yes ma'am decorated father you're now a colonel a medical doctor and the roswell incident continues to be mysterious to factual to many you had firsthand information and now your children who have lived with a grandfather and father they've respected of high decorated ability and consequence and served in our military military has a special emphasis in most countries and certainly in ours that's why everybody will testify in these three days to me who's ever military i have the highest respect for their service and dedication what would you offer to this committee at this time on this issue roswell that would help me to understand and the rest of us as well where we go from here what you've seen you've already kind of gave us a sample of it and all of that what else should we know before we get up from here today well i think what it does it tells us

1:15:21 that we are not alone in the universe as a matter of fact there's other civilizations out there and they're finding uh planets around other star systems every and uh that means that where you're probably just beginners on the new kids on the block so to speak that uh they are obviously more advanced than we are in their science and hopefully their cultural abilities too that they can get here from wherever they come from so and it also means that uh that they survive their their nuclear destructive abilities too i think uh i think uh any civilization that develops into the space travel has gone through a nuclear age and uh we're still on the precipice of either surviving or not surviving ours but it means they did and if they can do it we can also uh survive our nuclear war-like tendencies my last final point for me are you aware

1:16:22 through your father your own experiences we chase their aircraft or we have an occasion and obviously they have traced ours and does that exist and if so why and did we find anything did they catch us or are we gone or what so well you know i just uh i'm like uh what uh yeah i just know what i read in the papers uh okay then that that's okay don't make it just an observer of one event there and and i have a lot of theories but i bet i'll talk to you offline on those okay okay thank you very much i yield back thank you thank you our next is uh lynn uh congresswoman linda woolsey thank you um there's just so much and it's you just you marcels i mean don't you all worry that this isn't going to be resolved in your lifetime i mean good grief tick tick tick here we i mean what you know gray hair and gray and i'm 76 some

1:17:25 pretty old people the three of us but uh i mean that then all then your story then what happens to your story i mean it's and your story the truth but it's so much more meaningful when it comes from you well as a 76 year old you know i know spring chicken but uh but you know you know i like to tell my story i not i don't embellish it i'll tell you exactly what i knew about this and uh if people want to believe this that's okay if they don't want to believe it that's also okay that's their opinion i would sort of like to have the government spill the beans about this while i'm still alive to say i told you but uh but i may not be but it doesn't matter i've been there and done that so yeah i know what it was okay um all of you experts how many actual et's have been uh i'm gonna start saying that instead of the big long word i have been involved in uh starting

1:18:26 with the roswell and that and the two years before wasn't there an actual a person a not living being living something as part of that crash before you said that somebody was to go in and see you know uh the remains of the story was a walter hot as a public information officer had issued the press release saying that they had had a retrieved a crash flying saucer in the years that followed he just said all i did was write the press release right upon his uh don schmidt and and tom carrey put uh working with walter hot and his his family put together an affidavit to be released after he passed away giving much more information and he talked about having

1:19:26 actually seen the bodies of the of the aliens and more about that the important thing was this richard harris who was a financial officer at roswell in 1947 told me long before walder admitted to that walter had taken he'd taken or seen him in a hangar and said if you want to see something really incredible it's beyond that door and and harris didn't want to go in there and see the bodies but it was the body of the alien craft the other part of the question is did one survive the crash and there has been testimony from a number of witnesses that yes that one survived the craft and was in captivity and i hesitate to use that word because it really wasn't uh in captivity but it was held for a number of years and can you think of anything that would be more lonely than that you're an alien creature on a planet you have absolutely no possibility of getting home you're dealing with a bunch sentient beings that do not understand your culture or your language and you're

1:20:27 on this planet without any any hope of rescue sounds like a steven spielberg right but but the point is there there is some testimony that suggests that one may have uh survived uh for a period of time and uh i believe the date of its supposed death was you know one since then one of the things beyond first-hand witnesses to the materials to the wreckage to the characteristics that even by today's standards defy conventional explanation have been and sadly but also much to the credit again of the witnesses in maintaining that sacred oath to the that so many of them to their very death before they would finally confide to spouses to their children and invariably they all talk about the little people the little men they all describe either

1:21:28 having been out at the site and having witnessed the or they were posted at the hangar p3 building 84 at the roswell army airfield where they were on guard and they would observe the wooden crates being assembled and the bodies being placed into these boxes before being shipped out shipped out to where well we have the again and we have the eyewitness testimony right field in dayton ohio we have late late uh lieutenant brigadier general arthur exxon who was with foreign technology division which did the testing the reverse engineering of captured weaponry and armory from world ii so it made perfect sense that you had something crash of either foreign or something beyond that design it would go to foreign technology and exxon not firsthand but that he was aware of

1:22:30 the fact that when the materials from roswell arrived when they came in it was the first impression because no one was able to recognize this that it most likely was soviet but after it was tested he described that there was a unanimous consensus that the materials had to be from space so any of that recently i mean that was quite a while ago we've conducted to date three archaeological digs at the debris field site the very site that had this huge debris field that canvassed an area of almost three quarters of a mile long hundreds of feet wide where is it this just outside of corona new mexico it's about 65 miles northwest of roswell this is where the rancher first reported the the fine and then led

1:23:32 the two intelligence officers major and the head of counterintelligence captain sheridan cavett okay okay thank you thank you very much thank you congressman congresswoman did your father uh colonel mention seeing bodies uh actually the closest that came to my my wife asked me one day did you see the and he said no i did not see them myself but i knew people who did but what he knew people who did see the body but he did not see them himself okay can you hear this blanket statement right there my wife is the one who asked finally who were the people that saw the bodies uh he did not elaborate so i'm not sure who he was but uh but to answer the question no he did not see the body okay i'm trying to understand the sequence of events what happened here uh you mentioned uh mr smith that they sent two officers there when

1:24:35 ordinarily they would have sent some lower level people to investigate what was unusual when they simply got the word from the rancher that something had crashed why would they think that was unusual enough to send officers that is the question yeah what is it and again especially on a fourth of july yeah that it would have been brought to the attention now keep in mind the rancher did not go to the military he reported this to the sheriff sheriff george wilcox of chavez headquartered in roswell and it was only due to the fact that it was a reporter by the name of frank joyce from radio station kgfl who suggested this sounds like a military matter you should report this to the 509th and they in turn the sheriff contacts the base he personally speaks to major marcel who's at the px having a and it's important enough again fourth

1:25:36 of july weekend that he alerts the very base commander colonel william blanchard and after examining the material if it was nothing more mundane than a weather balloon or even an aircraft a rocket an errant we were testing german v2 rockets over at white sands at that time it was still unusual enough that he would dispatch the two head of intelligence and we believe the reason he also sent the head of counter intelligence plainclothes captain sheridan cabot was in the event it was something that he would be the most capable of identifying if it was something foreign did the uh rancher go to the site before military yes okay he was the one who first discovered but we don't know specifically what the rancher reported

1:26:37 he must have reported something somewhat unusual for them to send two officers rather than two enlisted men he brought some of the wreckage with him okay he drove into the sheriff's office okay the sheriff calls the base major marcel goes and checks it out and as he told me there wasn't anything conventional there but the rancher also stressed that there's a huge amount of this stuff out at the ranch yeah three quarters of a mile a few hundred yards wide that's a lot of stuff and what he was worried about was that his sheep wouldn't cross the debris field this is desert country out there they need to go where the water is they also don't want sheep eating anything like pieces of foil it is a concern so that was his concern also when we haven't mentioned it there was an article in the local paper that rewards were being offered for pieces of one of these sausages people were seeing all over the

1:27:38 and when the rancher went to corona and talked to his buddies there at corona that's where they did shopping and stuff like that this is out in the middle of they told him about the reward you had to go try to collect the reward and we have stories and i don't know how we can confirm them that the rancher suddenly wound up with some money after all this he certainly wasn't entitled to the reward and the military said no way jose was he also sworn to secrecy do we know the rancher two years later when his son bill jr had recovered enough pieces to fill up a cigar box and his wife shirley even described how he'd come home for dinner after working the ranch and he kept this one piece in his leather chaps and she would describe how he would take this piece out

1:28:39 and she'd watch as he tried to widow on it and poke through it and then she he would crumble it up crease it fold it and every time you'd lay it down it would smooth right out two years later there's a knock on his and it was a military captain and three officers we know what you have and you will give it to us so he turned over the box of mature this was two years after the incident they mentioned to him according to bill jr that just as your father swore that he would not say another word about this and should he ever discover any more material he would contact us we're asking the same of you we should mention one other thing here that i think gives an idea the scope of the concern by the military here we have heard testimony from the daughter of the rancher of the sheriff i'm sorry that

1:29:42 she was staying with her grandmother was a granddaughter grandmother there was a show on television about ufos and the grandmother says to the granddaughter you know the reason your grandfather didn't re-run for sheriff was when that saucer crashed the military came to him and said if you ever tell about what you saw we will kill you and we will kill your family she was horrified you didn't believe she says to her grandmother i was there i believed them was the answer so you sure it's a little story but we've heard it the granddaughter was a teacher uh they they were how shall i put this maryland threatening just 30 seconds to clear up one question that's uh and anybody can answer this could anybody

1:30:43 give us the name of any uh person would have been at least the age of 18 or older uh in 1947 who at the time in a similar way to how jesse marcel senior said he had received these kinds of materials and they had these certain property trades which he said almost immediately to people is there anybody that other than or even a child or who who can you give us the name of anybody who said they saw a body they saw bodies back in in 1947 the name of any person that you've gotten you know you've written or you've studied this we should mention we talked about you know and i know that mr marcel said that he knew people uh that had seen the bodies but he never said he had seen a body i just want to make sure that we have a witness if we do or if we don't i just want to know that could give the kind of credibility

1:31:45 on the question of bodies which was talked about rather freely a few minutes ago in the same vein who has seen a body and said so back in 1947-48 that's right if you're looking for documentation from 1947 we simply don't have it if you want the name of somebody who was there in 1947 who saw bodies then we have lots of names major edwin easley the provost marshal mentioned to his family that he had seen the bodies he mentioned they quizzed him about it when he was uh very gravely ill with cancer about that and he said oh the creatures to them of course i asked who had seen the bodies and said so in the same time period nobody nobody was asking those questions in 1947 but yeah but nobody was asking about debris either until mr marcel said i've seen this debris precisely we we have how are you saying that nobody said anything about bodies back in 1947 nothing's only until way later that's i just want to know that's probably that's probably an

1:32:46 accurate statement there's probably probably an accuracy on the issue is what i'm what you have to understand is after the story broke in the newspapers the military got everybody out of town marcel is not if if you're a reporter and you're looking for major marcel he can't you can't find him if you want to talk to mack brazil you can't find him if you max razzle saw my question just so i make sure i'm clear here what i'm trying to ask hey the army the air force they could have been covering up from day less than day one they could from the first second that's not what i'm asking i'm asking was there any person at the and maybe they can't because of a even at the time i'm just saying is there the name of anybody living or dead who in 1947 it was they said and at that time said not not on their deathbed not later after had some other situation at the time i said they saw a body that's my question i understand the question i understand

1:33:46 the question and the answer is no we have no documentation from that time frame when they saw the bodies what we have are the people who were there who later on talked about it most of these people most of these people didn't uh didn't come forward with their tails that's the last time he'll yield to the gentleman from utah let me let me let me make just one closing uh observation one quick question were there any radar tracks from fa a over this no no radar tracks that you okay not okay curious about that you know there are two things about this that tell me if i didn't know anything else and never met any of you that the air force is is not being honest uh one is if this was indeed a balloon there was no darned reason to send it to right

1:34:47 everybody would have recognized the bloom so the very fact that they sent the material there tells me that that they're not telling the truth and the second thing that tells me they're not telling the truth is that if in fact it was a balloon why in the heck would the issue of press say that that a flying saucer had crashed there yeah and i don't know how you can argue away those two things the debunker would say that's because colonel blanchard was a loose cannon and he probably got banned as siberia for putting out that stupid story i've had somebody tell me that they don't mention he got four more he was a four-star general when he died of a heart attack and was vice chief of staff in the air force that's not what you do when you have a loose cannon but those two things alone tell the honest observer that they are not now telling us the truth yes a balloon is not going to be sent to wright patterson and a balloon is not going to result in a press release that says that a

1:35:47 flying saucer has crashed that was the press release that's what they did with with what they found there and what they found as far as we know is either still in wright patterson or has been destroyed right or it's been moved to another location or yeah or yep it's still in their possession it can be it can be tracked wright patterson air force base with documentation and right and field right right field at the time yes and from that point on we don't know where it went it could have gone to area 51 we've been told that one of the bodies went to mcdill which was a uh aerospace medical okay thank you very generous time sir well that's okay i was pushing in to keep that sign up i get three minutes uh first off uh having been a cic officer we had a set format report system was there any documentation within the about the report of going to the crash

1:36:53 what was especially interesting to us after major marcel was sent directly and as kevin had mentioned how they took all the key players immediately out of the picture that anybody who had information on this was immediately either sent away or went on leave or in the case of colonel blanchard he set up an operation at the crash site they were unavailable to the press and yet there was still a lot of rumor throughout the area in fact in talking surviving people throughout the roswell area there was a lot of talk about the a lot of rumor about bodies recovered a lot of talk about the little men recovered north of town as far as the counterintelligence when major marcel was sent for the balloon press conference in fort worth with general ramey he was kept overnight

1:37:53 and then when he returned late afternoon the next day july 9th on the very flight that we're convinced a crate of material which was hidden in bomb pit number one and it wasn't an atomic bomb we have first-hand testimony to that fact we even have a copy of the manifest it was an unscheduled flight that went out at 4 pm on wednesday july 9th well marcel the next morning morning of july 10th he immediately confronted cavett he wanted to see the report he wanted to know what had transpired in his absence while he had been kept over at fort but kevin said and cavett kept responding and this was also in the presence of counterintelligence officer louis rickett who we also interviewed quite extensively that cavett kept telling him what he

1:38:54 kept responding what are you talking about what are you talking about nothing and marcel finally reminded him i outrank you to which cavett responded it's out of my hands take it up with washington they're now calling the shots thank you very much i want to i want to ask questions of an 11 year old boy this is this is not a hypnotic situation put your mind back as an 11 year old you're in the living room did your dad come back from the site in a pickup truck in a sedan do you uh he we had a 1942 buick convertible okay so he didn't have a military vehicle he took his own vehicle to go to the site that's correct okay when he came back in his vehicle was uh captain kravit

1:39:57 uh with him or was your dad alone oh he was alone he took some uh you weren't there at the vehicle or you're in the living room he took some material out of the vehicle and brought it into the living room actually the kitchen in the kitchen okay now how big was it a little bit big you got a kitchen table now what did you see in the kitchen table 11 year old boy this was distributed on the floor of the kitchen which was about uh eight by oh seven by five or eight by uh area and uh he had pre-positioned the material on the kitchen floor before he got us up so when we got up and walked into the kitchen the debris was already uh pre-positioned on the floor of the kitchen which uh was about uh maybe 30 square feet worth you know just a couple so you weren't there when he brought it in he set it all up and then called you and your mother come in let's take a look at this exactly he pre-positioned yeah okay pre-positioning he was trying to form

1:40:57 somewhat of a design if your proposition i think he was trying to put it together you know but there's so much of it you couldn't do that there wasn't enough yeah and and it was a beam like this with which you're circulating is this one of the things you saw there on the yeah there are several beams like that like i said there was also some black plastic debris like a broken phonograph record at that time but it wasn't that it wasn't uh vinyl so but the debris primarily was a the beams the foil and the black plastic debris i did not again see any electronics as your father is talking to you and your mother did he mention any fact that boy we saw this debris and look at it but we also saw some did he say anything like that no sir so he made he did not want to horrify you uh as a or your mother that he saw something worse than that so do you have any conclusion from the

1:41:57 conversation as an 11 year old that maybe your dad was not telling you everything that he saw the bodies were at another location it wasn't all in one place the debris was over here the crew compartment call it what you want was someplace else very good that's a good addition but i want to stay with the 11 year old boy yes uh you know the question was i'm sorry well oh well did you have any inkling as 11 year old that your father was withholding information from you as he's displaying the physical findings he he kind of kept things close to his chest so i'm not sure what uh the internal thoughts were on the on this but uh he was very adamant that we were not to talk about it that we were going to what there were not we're not to talk about this uh but he he kept things close to his you know he had a job on the base and i

1:42:59 really never knew what he did because he was a intelligent he didn't really confide with the family what his job was or what he did you know things like that which would be the normal task of a father who's in intelligence yes is there anything else you can share with us of your impressions uh and knowledge of an 11 year old boy well yeah it was a very earth awakening experience or space awakening experience for me it did make this very did make me very interested in astronomy and cosmology because i realized that whatever was on the kitchen floor didn't come from here but came from out yeah i got that impression from other comments that you've made that you've intellectualized your experience quite extensively let me uh close this facet of uh for another hearing we'll take what we're gonna take a segment carolyn has a question carolyn please i heard he's about to close it

1:43:59 and i just wanted yes no i asked you a something you just said so the major was intelligence high-level man yes ma'am kept things close to his chest yes ma'am didn't share a lot with you that he felt was very high intellectually has to do with his work yes uh doing okay but he pre-arranged what he had gotten that night and put it away in such a on the floor woke you up and your mom yes to come take a look at it now that in and of itself this goes my mystery side of me but then that was that was significant he wants you to talk about it he never talked to you about it but he wanted you to see that and never to mention it again what do you make of that well later yeah sorry there's a time in period in between when you saw it on the floor uh-huh yeah and when he came back from texas okay i'm not i'm talking about just the and just waking you up seeing you he

1:45:01 didn't have to show anything he could have just took it on to the base and did whatever he did he thought it was significant material right he wanted his child to see it and his wife who we never didn't discuss things with yeah at that time the material was not so he felt okay to do that as a matter of fact the only time i knew my dad to security clearances is when he came back from overseas i asked him what did the atomic bomb look like and what he did he drew the outline of of the fat man the bomb that was usually but then he tore it up and threw it away i wasn't suggesting that he was breaking any kind of intelligence by showing that he thought it he's a major he's a big time he's up there with the generals and almost with the joint staff of you know and he wanted to show you what he had found and what had obviously crashed near your home but you couldn't say something about it and then for whomever they are to take it and make light of it and it never happened it's a balloon that doesn't go together no you know again he wanted he was very

1:46:02 excited about this knew this was a very special event there and he wanted my mother and myself to be uh first-hand witnesses to this thing but when he came back from fort worth after uh general raymond then he said no more it didn't happen thank you okay thank you we're going to take a 10-minute stretch recess no more than that 10 minutes and we'll go into the next testimony