Citizen Hearing 2013: Nuclear Tampering, Part 1

0:08 afternoon session of our hearing systems hearing on disclosure to order if you would rise and repeat after me i'd appreciate it i do hereby affirm that i will tell the and nothing but the nothing but the to this committee today thank you very we'll begin with captain roger solis am i pronouncing that right solace is correct thank you miss and panel i would first like to briefly describe the incident that i experienced in march 1967. at that time i was the first lieutenant u.s air force stationed at maldives air force base montana i was trained in assigned duties as a missile launch officer for the minuteman one intercontinental ballistic missile it was i was designated deputy missile combat crew commander and part of a two-man crew my commander

1:11 at that time was lieutenant frederick mywald he's now deceased i will briefly review the uh well the diagrams showing the launch control center launch facility we will show you shortly when one of the other speakers we were on duty inside the oscar launch center a concrete capsule located about 60 feet underground we had operational control over 10 nuclear missiles each missile operates independently and has its own source of primary and backup power systems it is important for you to note that the command and control for these missiles was entirely located within the capsule there was absolutely no means to affect any of the missile systems from outside the capsule on the evening of march 24 1967 while my commander was on a scheduled rest break i received the first of two phone calls

2:13 from my top side flight security fsc the first call was to report unidentified lighted objects flying above the facility they reported they were flying at very high speeds making very odd maneuvers nothing that an aircraft could do and they just wanted to report it i didn't pay much attention to that first and i basically hung up on him minutes later the fsc phoned again and reported in a very agitated state that there was a large oval shaped object hovering above the front gate it was a red pulsating lighted object approximately 30 40 feet in diameter the best he could describe it it was it was difficult to distinguish a part of it on the inside except that it was glowing red

3:14 pulsating object he had all the men out there with their weapons drawn he wanted me to know wanted me to tell him what to do next i of course told him something like make sure nothing comes inside the perimeter fence of course we had our primary duty was to secure those nuclear missiles immediately after that call i started to inform my commander about the incident as i started for my commander our missiles began to shut down we lost alert status on all 10 missiles while this object was above our facility when we queried the fault system all missiles reported guidance and control system failure we had a way of querying faults within the system called versa it's a voice activated system and we're getting channels 9 and 12 which is guidance and control system at the same time we had indicator lights

4:15 showing security violations at two of the launch facilities where the missiles were physically while lieutenant mywall reported the incident to the wing command post i phoned upstairs and directed the security alert team to be sent to those launch facilities with security violations to investigate indications at that time the fsc reported to me that the object had flown off at high speed when the security alert team arrived at the affected laps in all lf's meeting launch facilities they reported seeing the object hovering over those sites as they approached closer to the object they lost all communications with the after speaking to the wing command post lieutenant mywalt informed me that the same thing happened at another flight at that time i assumed that met that night but it turns out what he meant was it happened at another flight about a week earlier

5:16 and that's the echo flight incident would which i'll talk about shortly right now i'd like you to hear the of the conversation i had with um colonel mywald who retired as a full and i had this conversation early 19 sometime in 1996. can we play the first audio please because they were doing maintenance i don't know the guidance cans or and the maintenance crews were staying over and there were security and maintenance on site on both uh those are two of the ten sites and when the first one went down and i talked with the community security out there they had support of this ufo hovering over the site and said yeah right what are you guys drinking out and we struck strike teams to boast the sites that have been occupied and uh both straight teams i didn't tell them what we had heard via the ls radio and that's how they

6:17 go to get within a mile of sight and call back in on the vhf and uh they both had reported too so we had two maintenance crews two security troops on site and two strike teams all reporting it is that right yep do you remember any of the names of any of those guys nope you don't sorry there's a little mix up there that was colonel walter feigel who was the deputy missile crew commander at echo flight can we have the my walls audio please from their field about ufos that had gone out to one of the sites finally got back scared to death on the lf and on the way back they lost

7:18 radio contact and we ended up having to send them back to base earlier i'm not sure what happened i don't think they ever returned to uh guard duty and what were they scared about well they had seen these crazy things and oh they did yeah did they report that to you i reported it to the top side guy oh the top side guy that's right okay okay well interesting what's sick after we were relieved by another crew the next morning i rode back base uh mr solis yes in a couple sentences would you tell us what we just heard the conversation yeah i'm sorry it was a little confusing uh the first conversation you heard was uh colonel walter fiegel written now as far as i know he's still alive he's

8:19 authorized me to use that audio by the way it was recording of a telephone conversation i had with him in 1996. and he described the the the fact that he had on two of his launch facilities he had maintenance crews out there and security guards and when the first missile went down in his flight they reported that there were ufos as the missiles went down he lost all ten of his missiles within in rapid succession that that incident occurred on march 16th 1967. he launched them and they went down no no the missiles were not launched the uh he just reported they reported that the objects were above them and at that point the missiles started shutting down disabled the second audio recording you

9:22 heard was out of uh colonel mywald uh talking about the fact that we had security light violations and we had to send guards out to one one or more of the lfs and um they reported seeing the ufos by the way i've got more audio available where colonel my wall supports my entire about what what occurred so he's been he was consistent on supporting this for up until the time he passed away last uh after we received but relieved by another crew the next morning right back to the base we reported the squadron commander's office there we were ordered to sign non-disclosure statements regarding our specific incident i did a non-disclosure statement and we were ordered not to talk to anybody about this uh it was then designated a highly classified incident

10:23 at no time did we lose power doing during the incident i want to emphasize we always had electrical power the sensitive information network sin cables that carried the signals to the missile systems were triply from electromagnetic interference the preliminary investigation isolated the failure to the logic at each missile the logic coupler is associated with the missile guidance system that's about the best i can explain to you what the logic coupler does i refer i'll refer you to a portion of the unit wing history i believe you have documents that i supplied you that talk about the echo flight incident i'll just read part of it says in the opinion of the team was that externally generated signals

11:23 caused the generation of these two and shut down the launch facilities the possibility of this is very remote due to the fact that all 10 couplers would have to fail in the flight within a few seconds of each other this statement confirms that signals were sent to each individual missile separately in order to disable them from my knowledge of the operating system at the time neither i nor the investigative team could define the method or means by which these signals were sent to disable the missiles each in the same manner meaning each missile failed for the same reason guidance and control system failure mr robert kaminsky was the boeing team for the investigation of the echo flight in response to our inquiry he stated this kind of event is virtually impossible once the system was up and

12:24 the team went met with me to report their findings and it was decided that the final report would have not nothing significant in it to explain what happened at echo flight just one moment captain uh we did not explain that just working with my congressional research assistant on the end of the table we are going to allow 10 minutes for each of you i'm not sure i just got the time signed for the captain and i don't believe that he's been talking 10 minutes has he yeah he has been talking 10 minutes can you and since we didn't let you know ahead of time i'm going to give you additional three minutes if that's okay thank you very much i'll try to get through it as quickly as i can after meeting with the engineers to discuss the results of their investigation mr kaminsky was notified by a supervisor that he should not submit his final report because the incident was reported to be a ufo event even though the boeing company was the principal contractor for the m1 missile the report on the incident was not submitted by specific requests of the air force however the air force did perform their own classified investigation

13:24 where they identified a possible failure mode as stated above in my opinion we did not have the technical capability to produce a then or now that would be able to instigate the failure mode of these missiles identified in the unit wing history in addition the unidentified objects displayed the physical and flight characteristics that no known aircraft type could achieve then or now therefore i have concluded objects were non-terrestrial in origin an important related activity ongoing and this is important on december 17 1969 the official u.s air force investigation to the ufo phenomenon was terminated the principal basis for this and you have the air force position on ufos i believe i've given you a copy of that the principal basis for this was terminate this termination was the evaluation of a report prepared by the university of colorado entitled

14:25 scientific study of unidentified flying objects in 1966 the u.s air force awarded a half million dollar contract to the university of colorado for the purpose of studying the ufo phenomenon i'll refer to this study as the con investigation for its team leader edward in fact it was never intended to be a scientific study because the air force did not propose that any scientific hypothesis regarding the phenomena be the common team relied on input and evaluations of reported ufo incidents from air force officers at various bases the common team was except for one individual not authorized to review classified reports of air force incidents regarding the they were not even informed that classified ufo files existed until after the termination of their study i have evidence supporting this with respect to the 1967 echo and oscar flight ufo incidents there was a deliberate effort to keep information about those incidents from the continent committee in 1967 dr roy craig the chief

15:26 investigator for the county committee was informed by mr raymond fowler a working for sylvania on minuteman electrical systems that the echo flight shutdowns at malston had occurred during ufo sighting in october 67 he visited maelstrom to inquire about this dr craig recalls this inquiry with lieutenant colonel louis chase the base operations officer at malmstrom after colonel chase and i had exchanged pleasantries in his office this is a quotation i asked him about the echo incident the colonel caught his breath and expressed surprise that i knew of it i can't talk about that he said colonel chase had assured me that the incident had not involved the ufo since colonel chase was the last man i would doubt when he conveyed this i accepted the information as factual and turned the review over to bob lowe who had received robert lowe was the deputy continent uh and he was the only one cleared to look at classified information

16:28 when dr robert lowe the deputy county request the air force alum to review the secret report of the echo incident he was informed that the report would be too highly classified to allow that review dr craig did not review any uh did not interview any of the many witnesses that were named to him by ray fowler and that he could have interviewed he did not interview either of the crew's echo or oscar crew in addition the air force officer project blue book was deliberately misinformed about these incidents in a letter from colonel james and i think you have those these letters in front of you uh he was right pat blue book he requested colonel chase in in june of inquired of reports they had received that there were equipment malfunctions and abnormalities during the ufo sightings the written reply from colonel chase stated this office has no knowledge of

17:29 equipment malfunctions and abnormalities and equipment during the period of ufo this evidence and the air force captain um i i think you just have a short piece to go is that right just one page just very short sir please please proceed i'm almost done uh and by the way this is a very complex case absolutely we can tell that yes sir thank you and we appreciate your this is evidence that the air force purposefully denied the con investigators the knowledge that the echo and oscar flight shutdowns were incidents since the air force cites this particular study as the primary reason for the official rejection of the ufo and claims that no ufo report investigated and evaluated by the air force was ever an indication of threat to our national security and in light of my own experience and others i must conclude the u.s air force was and is engaged in lying and disinforming the public about the realities of the ufo phenomenon that's the end of my statement

18:35 very very briefly i just want to uh point out the fact that the the next two witnesses that you will hear from mr shindelli and mr scott this is the very first time they are going public and i want to honor these guys for having the courage to do so thank you thank you thank you very much thank you cathy my name is david d shinley captain u.s air force retired in 1966 i was involved in an incident while stationed at minot air force base north dakota i was told to never speak of the incident again and also told that as far as i was concerned it never happened because of that i am before you today with a bit of i must say a lot of trepidation

19:35 as i have never before shown my face in on this matter i was a man icbm launch control officer a first lieutenant and a deputy missile combat crew commander in a two-man launch control launch crew with my crew commander who held the rank of captain he was hit about 15 years older than i i held a top secret clearance which was required for my job it all began one morning when i was watching tv while having breakfast and i heard the local news announcer mentioned that some residents in the town of mulhall north dakota had seen strange lights overnight which they attributed to a ufo this caught my attention because i was scheduled for duty that morning at a launch control facility called november flight about three miles west of mulhall and

20:37 about 37 miles north of minot north dakota i lived in the town of minot at the time and i drove to the air base to attend the morning pre-departure crew briefing at wing headquarters where all 15 missile crews would normally meet each prior to pulling alert duty at their respective launch control facilities during that pre-departure crew briefing it was mentioned that some missiles that november flight had gone off alert but there's no further information i immediately connected this to the news item that i heard earlier in the morning regarding a possible ufo sighting near the town of mohawk when the briefing was over several launch several of the launch crews seated near me commented about the news which they had also heard that morning and there was speculation about a possible connection with november flight

21:38 my crew commander had also heard the news item and we were both anxious and quite curious about what we might find as we drove out to the launch control if you could display my second slide on this second slide i don't believe you members have a picture of this but you can see it on the screen here this is the november launch control facility from an interview from google earth if you could show that again there is an access road to the flight to the facility from the north coming down to the flight facility where there's a main gate at the perimeter fence the perimeter fence goes around the launch control facility building top side and there's a a garage to the right of the

22:40 main gate the usual procedure upon arrival was to inspect the grounds and building but this time my commander immediately went into the security section of the to deprive security personnel and guards this was the security center was the top most north side of the building near main gate i entered the facility from the back door at the end of the facility and then encountered the site manager a tech sergeant who immediately took me into the day room and asked if i had been briefed on the previous night's events i said i hadn't we then proceeded toward the windows on the west side of the day room where he described to me the large object with flashing lights that been that had been hovering just the fence that night and he spread his arms out in front of him to indicate its size the

23:41 size of the object based on his description i estimated the object may have been 80 to 100 feet and prof approximately 100 feet from the building maybe a bit closer i immediately asked if it had been a and he said that it just hovered with no noise being heard quite unlike the usual noisy helicopters heard from within the building i also asked what the flashing lights were like but he could not answer they were unlike any head he had ever they were not like the usual beacon lights on planes but something like a pulsating glow he then said the object while hovering close to the ground then glided to the right toward the north end of the building and out of sight the object then came into view from the security section of the facility and hovered just behind and slightly to the right of the main gate concealed partly by the large garage

24:43 located within the fenced area to the right of the gate as you can see there the garage is labeled the second position of the object this this location put the object almost directly above the hardened launch control capsule located 60 feet below ground all our missiles are 10 missiles we're located 4 to 14 miles away from the launch control facility this capsule was located approximately underneath the garage this was the launch crew quarters and the launch control center for all 10 interconnected nuclear-tipped missiles that were located away from the launch facility security personnel confirmed everything that that the site manager manager had related to me my commander and i then proceeded to take the elevator down to the launch control center the capsule to release the two-man officer crew below after enter entering

25:44 the capsule our eyes were immediately transfixed on the launch control council which showed that all missiles were off alert and unlaunchable we had never seen such a thing before the outgoing crew briefed us on the wild events that transpired overnight and indicated that the missiles malfunctioned at the time the object was hovering directly above the capsule and next to the main gate we speculated on the possibility of an emf pulse that might have created the we had no doubt however that the 10 nuclear-tipped missiles of november flight had been compromised tampered with and put out of commission by the object that had paid a visit normally it's quite unusual to have even one missile down except for maintenance and wing headquarters was was very proud of having more than 95 cent uptime for all 150 missiles of the

26:49 the following morning after we have been relieved by the follow-on crew we arrived hopside and i attempted to query the flight security controller who had been on duty at the time of the but he interrupted me and he said that he had been instructed not to discuss the incident that is when my commander then told me that he had received a call while i was on a scheduled respite break down below and he told me and he was told that we were never to discuss the incident when i asked where the directive came from he said the osi he evidently received a call from the with no discussion allowed on the subject between him and our me together or with anybody else uh my crew commander and i were left in and left on our own to conjure in our own minds our other situations might unfold and be handled

27:50 normally the air force would train us on all procedures we were in a simulator training this serious lack of follow-through by the air force was more than bewildering and it served to keep this situation on our minds together there were a dozen of us involved with this incident my commander and i were not there during the encounter but we had to deal with the ramifications of the incident and i'll never forget the frightened emotion on the faces of topside airmen who were gathered with me when i was briefed by the site manager besides those of us at the launch of control facility there had to be many more people involved with this including maintenance people who had to re-target and rely on the also additional security personnel to guard and protect the missile launch and who knows how many others on base

28:52 were concerned everyone had been the incident was never discussed and i never heard a word of any other incident from people that i associated with i never spoke a word about my instant incident for almost 40 years and my wife never knew after several years of searching the in hopes of finding someone who gave me a clue about my incident excuse me we additional 10 minutes two minutes excuse me okay thank you thank you i then found what was described by captain robert salas and i felt immediate joyous freedom from thy haunting memory i then informed my wife since then i have run across several missile ears from my days of minot who are there with me in the wing and two of them have gone public with their own experiences

29:54 two others have described to me their unique experiences but they have pleaded that i not divulge their names they fear losing their first pension are losing their personal integrity and keeping a secret or being ridiculed i also know of two other officers involved in in this in incidents but they will not admit to their to their secret probably for the same reasons and then there's the late captain val smith of my squadron who has mentioned an official documents released by a fire he was interviewed by the late dr alan heineck a blue book fame who wrote an article in saturday evening post published on 17 december 1966 which was described which described the incident that smith was involved with on 25th august 1966. heineck stated in the article

30:54 this incident was not picked up by the it's typical the puzzling cases that i've studied during the 18 years that i've served as the air force's scientific consultant on the problem of ufos display the third slide please just prior to release of this post article the minot daily news got wind of it and then published on 6 december 1966 a front-page news item with major bold headline that read minot launch control center saucer cited as one indication of outer space visitors the front page i remember this article i thought oh maybe i could start talking in 1966 when i was at minot the evidence everywhere that something quite unique was happening but i was embedded in a shell of silence

31:55 the air force knew the truth the air force knew that i knew the truth and that is the only reason they warned and instructed me that it never happened thank you and thank you sir for your courage today and for your service sergeant scott i'm tech sergeant david charles scott united states air force security police at the time of my sighting i was an airman first class with a secret security clearance and was assigned to alpha flight 91st missile security squadron strategic air command minot air force base north dakota november 1974 it was

32:56 after midnight when airman bill gray a member of my security alert team and i were dispatched to from alpha one launch control facility to an alarm at one of our 10 minute man nuclear missile sites probably just another jack rabbit setting off an outer zone alarm we thought as we drove there gray spotted a strange light in the night sky called it to my attention it appeared to be about the size of a stars in the sky but was pulsating red we checked the site and found everything secure gray said the strange light had gotten bigger and acted weird when i was below then we parked our vehicle off site to await the alarm system to reset and the order which would allow us to leave the area now the strange light in the sky was pulsating and changing in a sequence red blue and yellow

33:59 suddenly our radio went dead and the idling engine of our vehicle gray and i sat there on guard duty for 45 minutes protecting our missile site we wondered aloud if the strange light above was a ufo when the light changed to white and pulsated three times and in quick succession it disappeared and our engine came to life as the radio also came back on as it did sergeant hicks our flight security controller called and ordered us back to alpha one all alarms had reset properly back at the missile side we arrived back at alpha one a little after three and in the morning we reported our story to sergeant hicks about the strange light we wanted to convince him that we had not fallen asleep on duty or we weren't drunk

34:59 he said i believe you men then sergeant hit us with a bombshell all minuteman nuclear missile site alarms in our wing had sounded simultaneously many security police and security alert teams reported seeing the strange lights which gray and i saw and they too lost radio communication and vehicle power you know what i think gray asked i think it was a ufo sergeant hicks just nodded i ventured should we report it gray and i aren't we'll write statements grace signaled his agreement with a nod sergeant hicks said why stir up a lot of the official air force position is that ufos don't even exist let's just drop it unless you two want get laughed out of this service a few nights later in the security police barracks back at minot air force base

36:01 i was listening to a news broadcast from winnipeg canada radio station the announcer read the story of an incident which had occurred just a few nights and fighter planes of the canadian air force had scrambled to pursue the ufo the fighters tracked it until it climbed at a steep angle and with blazing speed the canadians responded to the ufo that was over our missile site when that ufo when that strange light disappeared the canadians picked up on it because the reporter on the radio then the united states air force would release the report on this incident and it would be released in may of 1975 but the day came and went without official comment and as far as i know the u.s air force

37:01 has never officially recognized that event complete sir you yield yeah are you complete thank you very much sergeant thank you very riveting and thank you for your service as well now captain i won't even try to pronounce your name please say it for us fenstermacker you heard that can you sense democracy you're on captain thank you for coming okay thank you uh if we have time i have some pictures and graphics of the lcfs and the lfs and the lcc's if if we have time for it's not really pertinent but i thought you might like a little tour of the tour of the facility as a slide for paper or on our screen on the screen okay thank you oh i was a captain in the air force and a minute man three combat crew commander from 1974 to 1977

38:02 i was stationed at fe warren air force base in wyoming and assigned to the 400th strategic missile squadron quite honestly i was and still remain a and at the time did not believe in this ufo phenomena in the fall of 76 my deputy and i were on duty at romeo launch facility or lcf the lcf was the part of romeo that was above the ground as we saw with david schindley and the launch control capsule was the one that we took an elevator down to it was located 60 feet below the ground and behind an 8-ton door so we were pretty secure in there in order to stay awake my deputy and i were monitoring the vhf radio communication between our security alert team which we friendly called the cops david was one of them david scott and between our flight security control

39:02 our fsc our top side nco the the sat team was out doing their regularly routine checks i think they were responding to one of those jackrabbits at one of our launch and uh so they were out and away at approximately 2 a.m the fsc called the sat and said hey pull over get out of the vehicle and look around that's all he said gave no direction or any guidance a few seconds and he also said see what you see a few seconds later that they reported they saw nothing and they said oops wait a minute we do see something in the distance you have to see well what do you see and they said it was they said an excited voice it was a light in the sky it was a bright white pulsating light and they could see some other colors in between the pulsations the fsc asked them where the light was located and the reply was that it was some distance to the north and then after a pause they said geez it

40:03 really looks like it's near the lcf or near where you are the ffc then asked the sat to return back to the launch control facility my deputy kind of looked at each other and did a double because what the heck was that all about so we called the fsc on our hotline and asked them what was going on he very calmly said that right now right above the lcf there was a silent object with a very rough white pulsating light between the pulsations he could see a red and blue i asked for specifics and his best guess well he said it was a fat cigar looked like a fat cigar and his best guess was it was 80 to 100 feet above the ground and 40 to 50 feet long it was hard to see his perspective exactly because he didn't know how if it was way high it could have been a thousand feet long it was way low it could have been less but that was his best guess while we were talking he reported that it was moving down the access road to

41:05 the east and very slowly and very quietly i asked them to keep us updated my deputy and i talked about what we should do with this in a few minutes the fsc called back and said the object could stop a few miles to the east and appeared to be of the above the launch facility or lf so we ordered the sat team who was now on the way back to the launch control facility to go to that lf that had the object above it and they said they had to return to the launch control facility for batteries for their flashlights ten minutes or so later we the status of the sat team and we were told that they made it back to the lcf but not had departed yet they were just about ready to go the object moved further east along the access road above another lf we again ordered the sat team to that location and they reported they had to first gas up their truck it seemed to take them a long time

42:06 before they appeared to be on their way shortly off after the object went to the first launch facility we reported the incident to our sac command post that effie warren and the nco that took the call laughed at us and said call us back when that thing eats the sat team and hung up as well as log in everything in the official log my deputy and i who each had prior service meaning we were enlisted before we were an officer we started taking personal notes in addition to the official notes we wanted document everything that transpired and our next hourly 400th sms crew checks for the flights papa quebec romeo sierra and tango we told the other crew members what it our object had done and received laughter and an attitude of general disbelief what are you guys right after the group communication the crew from quebec

43:07 called they were the team we had dropped off on the way to romeo and said that earlier that morning they had a similar object above a couple of their launch when what we asked what direction they were heading and they said that they appeared to be heading towards me at romeo yeah we asked what happened when they reported it and they said are you crazy we didn't report it we would have been laughed at well he was right about that they also mentioned the sat team that they had sent to one of the ls had had an accident leaving the lf and the quebec crew seemed to find humor in that sad accident accident and that's important for what happens a few years later we contacted the fs the fe warren sac command post again and several times and reported have you logged this yet they said no i pushed it forward got an officer in and stated that if they didn't log this

44:07 if they didn't take this seriously i was going to call the base commander it was now three o'clock in the morning and the base commander would have not liked getting awoken at three o'clock but i would have then we got a call back from the senior nco at the command post asking for more details so they appeared to be logging it the object moved to another lf and the sat team never made it to that one our fsc kept us the praise of each movement and reported that at f at four am approximately it moved away very rapidly to a star sized object and then disappeared at no time did our missiles go offline though at no times did our missile go offline and i and i now understand why only recent information came out for that meanwhile back in 1976 the next morning we were relieved by another crew for a normal return to lefty warren and we went we went topside we found the fsc curled up in a chair in kind of a fetal position

45:09 he had been relieved by the day fsc but was not able to sleep and obviously was very the sat members were conveniently not at the lcf my deputy and i were both by our service and had a good rapport with rfc and we asked him about the difficulty that the sat team had about going to the lfs after prom after making us promise that we would not report the sat he told us that in fact they never left the launch console facility and they said they were not going to any lf that had that thing above it so we picked up our crew member quebec and we returned tripped effie warren and discussed the excitement of early morning hours they insisted they would not report the incident and that if we reported it they would deny that it happened if we reported their involvement in it they would deny that it happened upon our return to our squadron we

46:09 reported the incident with our flight and the next morning we were called in by the commander of the 400th sms he asked us about the incident and when he discovered we had personal notes he asked to see them once in his hands he tore them up and said we were never to talk about this and required us to sign documents that i'm a little fuzzy about what they really said we reluctantly signed them after going into a broom closet to talk about it for 10 minutes and our next couple of departure meetings an officer that we'd never seen before told us that this incident was classified and that officially never happened and i always wanted to question which was it was it classified or it didn't happen after a press conference in september 2010 i was given a name of a former quebec sat team that wanted to talk to i contacted and heard a story and i'm

47:11 confident he was one of the sat members on duty that night at our incident romeo this is what he told me as they approached the quebec nine in their vehicle they saw a bright pulsating light with a beam of light extending down to the launch facility while attempting to accomplishing one of their many checklists sac is known for their checklist he actually reached into the beam that spooked both of the sat members and they jumped in their truck and as they raced away they had an accident and the truck was damaged that tied in to me that that in fact was the quebec team that was on duty the night when my wife quebec commanders told me that their sat team had an accident i was confident they were them i asked you know when they got back toffee warren they were ridiculed by the fellow stat members someone even

48:11 drew a drawing of them seeing a ufo hitting a cow drinking and and they were ridiculed for their time and this guy was really to this day upset about that ridicule i asked him to share his story with and make a formal statement he said no this is it he was done and he would not talk to anybody about this again including me and he in fact has not responded any calls or emails from me i kept silence about this 1960-1976 incident after all a good officer his or her orders i caught larry king live on a friday night on july 18 2008 and i came in at a segment and i saw a former air force officer talking about a similar situation i i did not get the beginning of a segment i think i said this guy's name was bob salas and i

49:11 thought he was one of the crew members from quebec he was describing my incident you know and then i found out in fact his happened in 1967 at meinhold air force base not effie lauren a skeptic on that show did not believe mr salas's story and seem to doubt his his honesty and his sanity after much thought much later i contacted one of the guests on the show robert hastings and over time it took me four months to get up the information and i slowly came out first anonymously came forward first anonymously first with my first name then i said what the if they come after me they'll come after me because i had the same tradition that you did would i lose my pension would i be would i disappear etc so here i am this is what led to this

50:17 i served on the armed services committee as well as the air force academy board for six years of my 14 years in the congress i know the pressure that you're under i know when you sign those things they're like for life so i appreciate all your your courage and your service and we all do as a body in the house of representatives and the senate as well so some things they just don't know but we're going to take it to him okay come on mr mr dolan thank you madam chair and committee i am not a former member of the united states military but i have devoted my life to researching the matter of ufos and national security what we know from research and archival work is that from the beginning of the atomic age there have been good reports very good reports of unknown objects with extraordinary being in the vicinity of our most advanced nuclear facilities they certainly appear to be interested

51:18 if not always tampering definitely interested we're fortunate in having obtained a few items of interest through the freedom of information act it's obvious that much remains beyond our reach but what we have is of definitely of interest i'm going to describe a few of these uh cases to you but first i want to describe an event that is not in a declassified document it's written it's a written account from a credible witness that really is quite fascinating this is from a u.s navy officer named byron d varner who wrote a privately published book it's called living on the edge in american war heroes daring feats as a navy fighter pilot civilian test pilot and cia mercenary there's an interesting title for you the book includes a ufo encounter by another navy pilot a man named roland both of these gentlemen were interviewed at length by the then head of the mutual ufo network with mr walter andrus mutual ufo network or mufon's the largest civilian ufo organization in the

52:20 in the u.s has been for years so here's what happened in july 1945 near the close of the pacific war the atomic facility located in the state of washington one of the key elements of america's new nuclear infrastructure was there now although by this time no one was expecting a japanese uh threat to it as the end of the wars near but there were still standby armed and ready at all times just in case anything were to happen at noon on a date they don't know exactly but it was july 1945 an alert was sounded radar had detected a fast-moving object that was now in a holding pattern directly above the hanford plant it was very high no one was able to see it at first only on radar six pilots flying grumman f6f hellcats were sent up finally they saw it and they flew to

53:21 intercept it it was estimated to be about 65 000 feet very very high up no one was able to recognize it it had what the book described as quote a saucer-like bright very fast very high the pilot roland powell later described this object to be as large as quote three aircraft carriers side by side oval shaped very streamlined like a stretched out egg and pinkish in color he said it gave out a kind of around the outside edges he believed from portholes or vents and he speculated that the vapor was being discharged to form a cloud as a disguise anyway the pilots were baffled they were told to go higher they replied if we go much higher we're going to ruin these engines and the answer came back blow the engines if you have to but use full full military power full throttle injection maximum continuous go for it they were then told that if the engines quit they were to glide back toward the

54:22 airport and hope that you make it even so no one was able to get close enough to the object it didn't seem to do anything it just hovered there as if staying well enough out of reach the pilots were quite amazed at its ability to hover finally some engines according to roland powell did begin to fail fuel consumption got critical and the planes returned to base after this the craft just disappeared as quickly as it came it did not return they had pushed their aircraft up to two thousand feet which was five thousand feet above their maximum ceilings very obviously a serious event no press coverage as you would expect now you might argue might quibble that this is just a story unconfirmed by government or military documents but it was detailed story from an experienced world war ii pilot and you can take it for what you we do however have a number of declassified government documents that describe ufos being seen over america's nuclear facilities in the early atomic era several from the fbi uh describe a

55:23 series of events over and near los alamos this is again another central component of america's nuclear program one of these fbi documents from january 31 1949 and then there was another from a year and a half later in august of 1950 describe what you can only call an invasion of sensitive airspace by unknown and extraordinary objects so the first document gives specific for the initial sightings when they began in december 1948. in that month they occurred on the 5th 6th 7th 8th 11th 13th 14th 20th and 28th of that month the witnesses are all very high caliber we're talking special agents of osi airline pilots military pilots los alamos security inspectors there was some speculation that these objects might have been soviet but there were no reasons offered no evidence offered and in fact there's no evidence to this day media rights were also ruled out in this the initial conclusion was that they

56:24 were either dealing with a previous unknown natural phenomenon or something except no one seemed to know any project that could have caused these sightings and again after more than 60 years we still don't by the way the second of those documents uh referring to los alamos incursions this is by august of 1950 stated that by then a total of 150 observations had been made you think about it 150 over that region in about a year and a by then they'd been able to determine their three types of objects being seen first was a type known as green fireballs which were objects this is in the words of the memo moving at high speeds in shapes resembling half circles and disks emitting green light the second type was a bit more of the in your face variety that is discs flat round round flat shaped objects or phenomena moving at fast velocity and emitting a brilliant white light or

57:24 reflected light that's the memo and then the third type were meteors which you might breathe a sigh of relief except that the author then immediately well aerial phenomena resembling meteoric material moving at high velocity and varying in the colors noted were white amber red and green so quite a range we don't know what these objects were to this day another key place where the us developed its atomic technologies was at oak ridge tennessee here's where the manhattan project had established a pilot plant for to produce ufos were reported there as well a declassified teletype from october 13 1950 stated that the night before an air force radar installation picked up 11 unknown objects perhaps more traveling across oak ridge they were slow low in the sky less than 5 000 feet maybe 1 thousand fighters were scrambled but they saw nothing uh they didn't have any

58:26 explanation for this uh the radar was in perfect operating condition everyone knew their job that was only the beginning at oak ridge an fbi teletype of december 5th 1950 writes of six unidentified objects over oak ridge from the previous day it's clear that people were scratching their heads some wondered if this was maybe a weather phenomenon it doesn't appear to be because the sightings continued and we get another teletype from just a few days later december 8th from the fbi's richmond here's a quote this office very confidentially advised by army intelligence richmond that there have been that they have been put on immediate high alert for any data whatsoever concerning flying saucers violations of airspace there occurred on the 15th and 16th of december 1950 and quite a few over the next few months and recall that this is during the korean war if a major crisis occurring on the other side of the world the news and the efforts of the united

59:26 states military and yet you got a statement like this that they want any information on flying saucers you have to ask why odd craft were seen for quite some time over oak ridge a fascinating document from late 1953 describes a visual sighting of a ufo seen over oak ridge this is an incredible case the f-86 fighter aircraft had just flown by after which a black object was seen to appear out of a white cloud it's about 12 000 to 15 000 feet it began to travel in large circles very rapidly for about five minutes sometimes it looks cigar shaped sometimes round now here this is the report quote object was extremely black in color having an appearance of a deep black metal exterior with a fine gloss it's quite detailed it did not leave a vapor trail no sound was heard the object flew east at a tremendous speed for what a beard appeared to be three miles where it stopped the object was then joined by two more

1:00:28 of these same objects a formation similar to a v was formed and the objects at a tremendous speed flew in an eastward direction words fail me at this point rather extraordinary incidentally there's one more document describing a ufo over the hanford nuclear plant which i mentioned well we have an air force memo from august 8 1950 which shows us that the hanford facility continued to be of great interest let me just read this brief statement since 30 july 1950 objects round in form have been cited over the hanford aec plant that's atomic energy commission plan air force jets attempted interception with negative results all units including the anti-aircraft radar units air force fighter squadrons and the federal bureau of investigation have been alerted for further observation the atomic energy commission that the investigation is continuing and

1:01:28 by the way there are no subsequent foia documents that we've gotten over what the nature of that investigation was even though we assume it happened so all i can say is good grief do you think they were taking this necessary uh seriously brother yes i think they these are more there are many more uh of and um i'll be talking about those some of those in the next panel uh i think that these are more than mere accident or coincidence anyone charged with security over these vital installations would have to take these very seriously indeed not to do so would be a grave violation of one's sworn duty to protect and defend such installations and it would not be hard to see why deep secrecy would dominate the subject of ufos there are many other incidents regarding ufos and nuclear installations that occurred in later years as i mentioned i'll discuss some of them in shortly in the next panel there's even evidence that these types of events have continued to occur

1:02:29 much more recently although they're a little harder to confirm due to the unresponsiveness and stonewalling of affected agencies yet the events which took place so long not only demand a scientific analysis but they also cry out to be understood for what they a key component in the implementation of secrecy so profound so serious that they contributed to the creation of a state within a state not bound by the traditional american goals of public openness and responsiveness to the people one might argue such events are so serious that the public really doesn't have a need to well i beg to differ i do think that citizens in a free republic if they are to govern which is the basic idea do have a need to know about the important things in their world thank you thank you very much thank you very much excellent excellent we're now going to open it to our members and we're going to start with congressman bartlett

1:03:31 as i've sat and listened to this i was asking myself a question if for my good there is a cover-up of these sightings then what else might the government do my good you know this is kind of orwellian uh mr dolan what was the reference for size because so the description of one of these was different than the description of others it was enormous inside what was their you know when i drive down the road and i have a little speck on my windshield it doesn't look very big but by golly it can it can obscure my vision of a whole darn car down the road so um perception here you

1:04:33 know some has to be some reference point before you really know how big something is i certainly agree there are references for size are notoriously inaccurate uh you get this uh i assume you're referring to the first incident i mentioned the hanford case of 1945 where the gen the pilots they said it was as big as a couple aircraft carriers yeah yeah i i don't know how he how he came to that conclusion to be perfectly honest with you you do have in uh in the research um a few confirmed and by confirmed i simply mean radar plus visual accounts of very enormous objects it has happened it seems incomprehensible in this particular case i i i really don't know uh he simply i to his perception at that time it looked very enormous the sightings that were talked about are all fairly old what's happened more recently well i don't want to jump if you had to say something rob uh recently let's say uh 2010 there was a shutdown of 50 missiles that fantasy

1:05:36 air force base this was announced by the air force it was announced that it was eventually announced it was a computer glitch now um i'm very worried about that i'm not sure i believe that but we do witnesses that have come forward both civilian and air force that said they saw an object in the sky at the time these shutdowns this is still being investigated but these incidents are still going on they used to be reported by the press i see reports now in the public media do they just not report them because of the climate the uh psychological climate that we're in or are there no sightings recently i've seen no reports recently i'd just like to mention a couple of things with regard to that

1:06:36 it was mentioned previously in the bent waters panel they talked about personnel reliability where they keep tabs on people involved with with nuclear weapons and make sure they stay reliable so this is one way the air force is applying pressure not to report these things but we know and from from reports we're getting from time to time that these incidents are continuing uh but that's one of the reasons i think mr noted that some of their people were very reluctant to report what they saw and i'm sure that had to do with the prp two points since all of you have this activity you know we're not the only country that has uh minutemen missiles and and holes in the ground pointed at at somebody it's the somebody that we're

1:07:37 pointing at that they have any as a result the implosion of soviet union the data that came forward and a lot of their files do you have any as whether or not the russians or the had a similar experience with their missiles uh any anyone that wants to answer that we'll start with the captain i'll start with one that i think is in my book that i've given you a copy of uh this was an incident i think it was 1982. it was in the soviet union um and it was you know the witnesses come and are named and actually i think there was an abc special on this particular incident but as i recall ufo came over and actually started their missile on the launch sequence and thankfully was shut down from that launch sequence but there have

1:08:38 been there definitely have been sightings over soviet bases uh there's a large large quantity there also of incidents where ufos were seen over missile bases they had the same effect that is stopping the ability of the missile to work through whatever device i'm not familiar with any specific case like that okay dr i mean captain uh friends stermaker did uh you nodded your head like you had some knowledge in this i saw the same report that bob salas had i thought i saw it on abc and i've read other reports but nothing quantifiable you know plus if if i read reports about some of the people coming forward like we have i wouldn't necessarily believe them you know but i've read reports about it instead of knocking them offline actually it started the launch process

1:09:38 which really to me is more worrisome yeah because they suspected us uh but so the the either the launch sequence was interrupted uh or they backed down it was initiated but uh but uh apparently is the the control mechanisms that you could still start to launch sequest sequence but the control mechanisms were the ones that were interrupted by whatever forces were in effect so so i was just curious that you know if there was a focus of attention on u.s icbms obviously extraterrestrial would an interest in the soviet icbms and also would have interest in icbms in the world today not by other richard i was going to just come to you give you your research you now you found something this was

1:10:39 anecdotal now what did you find well um in the last couple of years of the soviet union's existence uh there was a remarkable amount of openness in the press from the soviet military on this matter quite a bit um it was like a window of opportunity as people used to say at the time and uh there were a number of cases one at cassputen yarn 1989. i don't think that involved nuclear but that was a rocket launch facility there was an unknown object that appeared it involved a jet scramble it was quite extraordinary very dramatic there was a case just outside moscow in march of 1990 which involved unbelievable uh encountered by an object that was playing all sorts of games with the soviet jet interceptor seen by multiple witnesses the soviet minister of defense spoke about it the soviet top general for air defense spoke about it uh they both discounted this that this was american this is not a chance in fact the um the top soviet commander said this is there is no way we're ever

1:11:41 going to try to attack this it was vastly beyond anything that we or anyone we know had so there were quite a few very dramatic cases um and there were some that involved nuclear facilities but we don't have as much information it's just not good thank you my time's up thank you congresswoman julie thank you madam chair um i have some just in general and maybe we'll start with captain solace um these were all classified you're and you took the oath that you tell keep them so secret why are you talking now thank you for asking that question uh i did not speak about this uh for almost 30 years uh i i kept my oath in 1994 i have to pick up a book called above top secret by timothy good on page 301 of that book it stated in a very short paragraph that missiles were shut down on mauser

1:12:44 air force base during ufo sighting in 1967. i immediately thought that that was my because it described it fairly well and decided to go ahead and request a free under the freedom of information act uh information about that specific incident they were talking about the echo flight shutdown um because i thought that was my incident so i didn't mention anything about ufos when we sent the inquiry i just asked for well actually my researcher james klotz who was with mufon at the time requested this information under foia the air force wrote back and said you know this incident is classified however because of the lapse right we're going to declassify it and so they did they declassified the echo shutdown incident and they started sending me

1:13:46 so i started speaking about it at that because i thought at that point that that's where i was because you have to understand all these facilities look pretty much the same i knew i wasn't in the same squadron as but i did know that at times we did help out when they were short on cruise it wasn't until 1996 when i contacted my commander fred mywall that i realized that was an oscar flight and and then i realized i'd been speaking out of turn so to speak because i had violated my uh by not speaking about my specific uh i made a decision to continue speaking about it and uh i've been speaking about it ever i've never been harried by the air force nobody's ever knocked down my door and

1:14:48 can't talk about it so i continue to speak about well we're glad you do for any one of um i think so often when we hear when we hear the initials ufo we always think of it as somewhere outer space don't know this is a huge where they come from how do you think they're europe do you think they're from somewhere in outer space or do you think these are made by some country that we in our little universe that we know about tell me what you think madam these are questions that um not only uh private researchers have been asking but also uh classified researchers have been asking when you go back through um the history that we know of back in the late 1940s when this first appeared on the scene within the air force there were competing solutions to this problem right off the

1:15:50 bat you had uh analysts who were that there was no possible way that this could be could have been soviet manufacturer or american that the performance capabilities were too advanced there were other people who did suspect the soviet union in fact during the the incident over los alamos that i mentioned earlier there was speculation that uh you know wondering could this have been a soviet uh type of there's just no evidence for that um we all we all realize that within the black budget world there are vastly um advanced types of technologies in various ways and um in many cases uh nsa computing for example is at least three decades ahead of the rest of the at least they were in the 1960s and they probably still are and there are other black budget groups that have um who knows what they have do they have you know so that's always a thing if you were to see a perfectly hovering triangle there are triangular

1:16:51 ufos hovering above you today you'd have to ask yourself is this ours of theirs this is one of the fundamental questions that serious research asks these days because um it's very difficult i will i will just offer my own opinion that a large portion of these objects are not ours and i think that's what uh you find when you speak with individuals within the classified world i've been privileged to do that many many times some extremely prominent individuals if i may say and that is their opinion as well thank i yield thank you congresswoman congressman cook please captain uh fenstermarker unlike some of the other testimony here today uh you said that you didn't wait too long before you started talking about it am i correct in understanding that no i just i just came forward after i saw bob salazar excuse me i misunderstood that then and i just want to say i would commend all of you for coming

1:17:54 out with your statements and i certainly the reasons why for many many years you may be reluctant but had you i i thought i'd heard something that i misheard obviously and uh and uh the reason i'm asking this is because i want to ask you all each about the um the air force project blue book uh blue book was being done you know there's a lot of money spent on project blue book by the air force during what the 47 to 69 period and some of your events occurred that you've talked about certainly that you saw as your event occurred while blue book was still being funded and yes written about and blue book is as i understand it totally published now it's it's out and let me make sure i understand i think your the ear of your um what you saw witnessed

1:18:58 76 76 and and again 74 74 66 66 so both uh the two captains right directly in front of me here the things that you saw is there any indication in project blue book about those or were you ever contacted in regards i think you were never in contact in regards to project blue but at the time or am i wrong on that oh no or by anybody in the air force that was telling you that's what they were doing they were gathering i realize they may not they may take your statements not tell you why they're taking them and so the only thing they did with me is shove a piece of paper in my face and told me to sign it um i never heard another word about it afterwards uh in in researching i've been researching this subject for 18 19 years now and recently i discovered that project blue book had

1:19:59 files uh they had two sets of files one one available to the public and a set of secret files and so again i've got evidence of this so no when when the content investigator came to malmstrom air force base to talk to our deputy base commander colonel chase colonel chase this was a classif said this was a classified incident you could not review the report so they put it in a classified blue book file at the time okay and you asked did you have any feeling of the same question on the same question captain schindler at the time i knew nothing about blue per se i do re recall an incident for instance during my time at minot where there were some among some crew members about blue book

1:21:01 but i never knew what that was at the um until later 450 years late 40 years and then i find out about blue book and then i find out about this article on the saturday evening post and i find out about val smith who's in my squadron and then i find out about release documents from the air force that mention his name and now i understand that's where the talk about blue book came in it's very likely that not too many people in the air force even captains and colonels and everything else even generals knew that much about blue book am i right i mean i like i imagine that you've reviewed some of what's in blue book since i mean recently for example kevin sauce is is there anything in blue book that's been published now that that would indicate anything close to what you saw in uh montana or in which it was normal or in wyoming or in the other have you have you looked at that is there any in other words

1:22:02 well okay and do you have any any of you have any feeling as to why blue book why they stopped blue book or do you have any can you give us your opinion yes totally opinion of why blue book was yes mr cook i alluded to it in my the content investigation which was supposed to look into the ufo question for the air force was a whitewash it was intended to allow the air force to wash its hands of the ufo question and i have evidence of that the evidence that i have is the fact that dr craig who was the chief investigator for content was given information about the echo and oscar flight shutdowns he was given and dates etc and never followed up on it the continent investigators never followed up on it robert lowe never followed up on it it

1:23:03 was never mentioned and that's because it was classified i would like to just answer your question very quickly i can give you the quick low down on blue book blue book was formed in 1952 as a result of a tremendous upsurge in ufo sightings that were happening at that time that was the only time in blue books history that they actually had a staff that was capable of doing investigation they had about 12 people their percentage of unknowns for that year was quite high it was almost 25 the order came down after the cia sponsored robertson panel which was at the very end of the truman administration to say that's too high uh this problem is too big and we need to we need to knock ufos out of the public mind and blue book was gutted and stripped of of really all capabilities and for the rest of its it had no more than a staff of about four or five people with no capability and were on strict orders this is an explicit air force order of 1954 555 saying you are required to get your number of unknowns down to a bare

1:24:05 and they did that by hook or crook didn't matter so they it became very much a kind of an open joke to be quite frank the blue book explanations were generally not considered very valid because they were not uh sufficiently investigated in any scientific way i hope to share with you one quick follow-up question that will take 10 seconds to answer some and about this okay is your opinion then mr dolan that the air force is more reluctant even today than they were during that period of 52 to 67 to even talk about or discuss or take information from captains and sergeants and colonels and even generals any kind of pilots and so on than they were then absolutely i believe that this is a complete nightmare for them to deal with our final presenter before the our break our 10-minute break or so will be congresswoman woolsey well i was sitting here thank you

1:25:06 uh all five of you and and steve who was there before you um you know getting really uncomfortable about the position this has put you in all these years and honoring you in my heart for getting past that and getting here and knowing that was not an easy thing to do but i wanted to then reflect back on why is this panel why are we all uh retired members of congress well you know what we don't have a lot to lose but it would be this would be one of the issues that a sitting member would uh risk losing a an election over 60 minutes 60 seconds i mean add and

1:26:08 and clearance yeah into uh to find out data that uh you have to have clearance for and but then that was the third piece of this is to me and i feel maybe i'm being too optimistic i think this week is going to change the feeling and respect that the common constituent the the regular member of our our uh country the population the populist i think if they pay any attention to this they're going to have a different respect for it and they'll be able to say it instead of whispering to me people who i get teased a lot because i'm the one of the most

1:27:08 uh left progressive members that have left the house but that was in the house and so my constituents they're really supportive of me lucky me but they would come in and they would whisper you know congresswoman i think there's something to this and i would say well if it is or isn't i'm gonna go and find out why we can't find out and they they can count on you know that i would do that but i i'm not sure would have done it if i was a sitting member i have to be honest with you oh miss woolsey and i make a comment yes for the last year we have been sending documents uh myself and mr victor vic bigliani of z land communications have been sending documents to representative peter king of new york he's got all the documents he's got my book he he knows my story but he has not acted on it

1:28:09 i've also briefed senator congressman rohrbacher a congressman from california yeah i think he's still in congress and yes yes i briefed him i think it was the year 2000 and he still hasn't acted on this well there's 433 other members that haven't acted also so i just want to point to this that this week could make it more comfortable for them and maybe help put the pressure on our government to be to be more open and to stop covering up and having secret files so i thank you very much for being here thank you very much thank you we're going to take a a short 8 10 minute stretch or break for a moment when we come back we'll conclude for the