Citizen Hearing 2013: South American Encounters, Part 2

0:05 thank you very much this meeting will come back to order um i am going to start out to my right with congresswoman woolsey and this will be the time to ask questions of our way thank you madam and thank you witnesses what a morning what a morning good morning but what a uh there is hardly any way to deny unless you are all sitting here making up stories of how absolute your proof is to what's on uh beyond our own uh earth and uh so thank you for that that was good for all of us uh my first question is is to our wonderful pilot chief chief no i mean santa maria uh you're peru you're argentina what i want to know is

1:06 do you have i think it's to the gentleman on the end of the table do you have a any kind of a formal relationship your group with your argentina government and what is it the argentine government and what is it and how does it work and what kind what can we learn from that well all the the groups in argentina the civilian groups create sephora and sephora had been united researchers for many many years who were my colleagues and close associated some they were disciples of myself i started searching ufos many years ago and we always look for the classification as for from the 70s to now the group found the cooperation of the air force

2:09 through the minister of the defense and through the executive power of the nation we are waiting to kind of unify that that motion now is is working also we have a petition in the congress of the nation we have the with executive power and also with the minister of defense to have released the documentations of from from the past they were projects as i said in my speech i know maybe the translation was not so good okay of um these projects and the projects uh not only to also to have cooperation to have cooperation and what the field we always work alone with no no mediums to get to the places to do good analysis we we really the groups kind of prepare so so many

3:10 decades with the lack of technical support to do we have for example um since the 2000 we have the phenomenon of for example of the cattle mutilations which is a very serious we know through linda molten his research and for example the groups need support it's not only to have the classification of documents who could get light for scientific analysis and to see what happened also in documents and cases the army forces and air force and the navy research between 1960 as i explained and today but there were recent cases too as i said in 2011 was this this big experience you need the information are they giving it to you or are you just yeah i think the classification started slowly yeah

4:10 but it's actually happening it's happening right now yes it's happening now sharing that with us thank you uh uh colonel santamaria i can't imagine your um there's so much you know i mean i felt like i was sitting on your shoulder when you were telling the story after word how did your government treat you did they take your information and take it seriously how could they not did they and did you did you see any life in those the 1800

5:14 we reported all of this to the air forces but there was no negative repercussions because it was officially accepted the sighting was officially accepted and i continued to fly for 20 more years without any problems so how did your press did the press handle this and i mean what was their response when the when this event happened this was a year on that air base we were installing the ufo did not actually get flight get to fly over the the base and it was and so really we received the order to

6:14 not talk about this because we didn't actually want any curious journalists to come and actually research and investigate this because we had sensitive materials on the base and we didn't want to attract any undue attention and so it was 22 years of silence until the air force officially gave us permission to talk about these phenomenon and that's at that time when they said that we actually start to speak publicly about this issue and as i said they finally gave me the authorization to to talk about this and did the press come back by belittling the effort or did they acknowledge it and support the it started to talk about this secret that we had kept for for so many they didn't really know how to get access to the information

7:22 occasionally would interview me or request an interview just to try to get the word out about this but it was so many years later that there wasn't a whole lot okay thank you very very much um mr gerard yes ma'am can i take these off yes yeah i'll be speaking yeah thank you and and believe me it's because i'm limited uh you referred to american military in the amazon how did the how soon did that happen and what's the relationship there the the facts that i described happened in in the 70s and late 70s and 77 and brazil was like many other countries in south america under military dictatorship and during that period of time u.s military where any intelligence were all

8:23 over south america ruling lots of things there now when operation saucer took place and it happened because the populations of the affected area couldn't leave because they were seeing ufos all the and worse than that they were being over a thousand people were attacked during a certain period of time there well there were lots of injuries by this object that would come from the sky and emit a beam of light towards people's body making them faint and become anemic now the situation went so intense that the community leaders went to the of the state of para to ask that something is done about it and the government asked the brazilian air force to start an

9:25 investigation to give answers to the population to the then it was established the operation saucer to investigate and to engage the the extraterrestrial intelligence because there was already and this is in the documents there was already a knowledge that there was an intelligence beyond that phenomena and that phenomena was not earthly now when operations also started as a military operation with all the system and style during its procedures that lasted four and the way it was closed is very interesting but during this four months u.s military u.s intelligence were visiting those areas and taking part of the operations

10:28 during the operations officer and they talking to the witnesses during the day and sky watching the night with full equipments to try to detect and film the ufos that were being seen now it was said to me but the commander of the operation saucer that at the beginning in the first weeks only a few sightings took place but the operation saucer went on and on the objects would come more and more and to the direction of the the areas where the military were camping so was uh the u.s military part of that that saucer project with you not necessarily were they at the table not officially they they took part in lots of procedures including uh this was taught to meet by the commander of the operations software

11:28 coronel will and joe london that they were having problem and documenting the ufos with photographs some some ufos were hard to to but they solved this problem when the u.s military came to brazil and gave to the brazilian military some equipment and highly sensitive films so they can not only photograph the ufos over 500 pictures were made and also filmed the ufos 16 hours of film were made of including over the amazon river so do you have any idea of whether or not that information and those films were uh shared here in in the united states i don't have that would it have been all right i mean was there some embargo in in their relationship with

12:28 you that would say you can't take our information back no i think that the the whole thing about the cooperation with the americans is that they take the information back to united states you know they were there to collect information as they were in argentina and chile in so many countries to er to get information about those and bring back to united states to use for their own purposes well thank you very much um so mr uh who who kneels you mentioned that uh the traffic control group i mean was housed in the air and space museum currently yes okay but it started out in in another uh yes the technical school of aeronautics right that was the office initially and um well when you told me that it

13:30 when you told us that it had been taken from one area to another when i heard museum i got a little concerned that it was saying this is all and and you're not going to be working on no but it is it's it's it's not in the museum itself it's an and it's in this in the the museum of the it's in an old airport it used to be the main airport los arrillos but what happened like it happened in many cities the city grew too much and also was done when their you know the runways were so eventually the airport on los angeles was is no longer functioning as an airport but they're still using the hangars and things and they created a but the facilities of the committee the cepha are annexed but it has nothing to do with the museum so it works for convenience you you work for you yeah all right they also have an office at the main headquarters of the civil aviation agency but according to what general bermudez told

14:30 me they'd rather be at that other place he said because when they are in the headquarters if they have to make an official presentation or something of course they can use that facility he said everybody's asking them questions oh what's going on with ufos have you seen any so we're in the other place nobody bothers them they can they can work quietly and do their job all right i thank you and i thank you all my time is up thank you next up we have uh next up we have miss kilpatrick thank you very much madam chair i was going i wasn't going to share with you mr travis i think i will i think you're the first that i've heard in four days who said the presence of the others actually attacked people that caused the operation saucer project to come into existence is that right that's right i think i've heard that before certainly haven't heard it in america

15:31 matter of fact it probably happened doesn't mean it didn't happen we just haven't heard it report it like that what year did operation saucer start i'm sorry what year oh it started in in september 1977 and it ended on december 1977 it took four months only okay okay and you also mentioned uh in this from congresswoman luke woolsey the u.s did you say they took your information and you were waiting to hear back from them or something you were saying about i don't know if maybe you supply the information from brazil in this instance and then they were to report back or something i don't know what was it what was your relationship with the united states of america this is for all of you the information on your presence your ufos your whatever that's being called what relationship if any did you have with the u.s government and did you forward or share any information from your country with the u.s

16:32 government me personally no brazil oh brazil brazil for your country i mean for your country yes there is uh there is a common sense uh the u.s government is acting in many places of the world it's what is working operating in many places of the world collecting information about this subject it is reported that the u.s have been to several countries collecting information about ufos now we just saw when commander santa maria presented his a document that shows that the u.s intelligence was getting formed of what in la jolla air force base in peru the same thing happens happened in brazil during many we have had u.s military coming down to brazil and taking part of investigations of ufos and it's not

17:33 in the past like four or five decades ago but also in recent cases okay okay that's that's to sort it can each of you uh respond to that let's do this we'll go right down the line just want to know what relationship if any does u.s have with your experiences and your acts of what we're discussing this week i mean do you automatically give it to them is it because we have military bases there is because we may get appropriations from us that you must share this what reason and what is that connection in the case of the cepha in fact general bermudez told me that when they created the office back in the late 90s they contacted the american government i guess through the because they wanted to have some kind of formal relationship uh and but there was no response they did not respond no that would have been probably late but they do have a an agreement with um not an official group but it's it's called narcap i think it stands for national

18:36 aviation research center for anomalous phenomena something located where well it's run by a by a former nasa scientist a very serious man called dr richard haynes and he is an expert on aviation cases as a long-time nasa scientist very serious so he's he's lectured he's gone to chile he they have very close relationship because he's an expert on aviation cases and the is run by the civil aviation so but but narcap is not an official agency of the u.s government it sounds like a nonprofit of some sort and we've had some testimony here to that effect on our u.s side that would probably equal that correct so the other thing is uh what um my colleague gervais was if you study the american declassified ufo files which are extensive you will a tremendous amount of documents especially back in the old days but there's still some more recent collected by various agencies usually

19:36 through the defense attache office uh or sometimes by the cia and it's obviously that these people are you know monitoring the international aspect of ufos and do you get does peru get information back from the u.s regarding any of what you send them well i i cannot speak for peru uh in the case of chile chile they might be at the level of they probably do but then that is not revealed publicly see what general bermudez once wanted was to have a formal i understand but because of the transparency law that would have had to be revealed publicly so the u.s just did not just never respond it's brazil chile colonel sanchez could you respond exchange relationship with the united states do you share any of your information as you testified to us this morning with u.s or any non-profit or other entity that

20:37 may not be government do you share any of that with the us government or a nonprofit or an agency here in our country that would know what your gay has experienced not with any civilian or military agency u.s government agency there is no sharing or exchange thank you very much dr i want to say choi is that right no bueno well the truth is one of the conclusions you can draw having half after having heard the testimony of all the witnesses is that the ufo phenomenon is one of national security and therefore the intelligence element is extremely important as far as we understand in peru there is no open formal public agreement but there are that show that some of this information

21:39 shared with u.s security agencies there's there's no uh open public documents but there are witnesses who have noted that in the 80s a ufo fell in the san mateo area and they said that there were in that area and i do want to remind you that in the greer disclosure project there were people a ufo and that there was extraction and this was according to testimony that they took as some of the remains of this

22:40 they were taken away by helicopters that were definitively not part of the peruvian armed forces excuse me see they were not part of peru taken away in helicopters what country was that who took them apparently they were american and because then that these materials were taken back to the united states i'm going to change for colonel sanchez maria you're a brave man to go up and down back and forth zip with something you don't know what it is and you're trying to shoot it that's pretty brave that's i'm gonna commend you for all of that um you did get away clean and free and healthy that's a good thing and thank you very much i'm not sure i want to ask you that same question i do want to go to argentina

23:41 and ask the same question do you share that you argentina share either with government or non-government any of your experience any of the the things that you've witnessed to us today with the united states of america either through its government or other non-profits or unaffiliated pretty sure i am sure there are some kind of no open communication but it's possible but officially i don't see any kind of or interaction between the two argentina nothing official u.s agencies yeah officially but uh regarding we were talking also was a very interesting case i researched in the decade of 1778 there was a ufo crashing between and bolivia and supporting what dr choi said and was an object who produced a kind of

24:43 destruction of a hill was a kind of a cyber shape structure of not identified and the bolivar government studied the argentinian was unlimited didn't investigate but that object was retrieved by americans helicopters too both stops that yes okay you have no relationship with them but in that instance in other instances around them right right right they have we have been on the scene at some of your current experiences right yeah okay goes back i want to go back to dr choi for just a moment your point was well made in terms of national security so do you all in south share your information and experiences and enhance or whatever your national security as a because of what you see and how closely you live together and just one person and yeah you know i don't know there is an agreement at the level of in all south america they share

25:43 information about a wide variety of subjects of items and ufos is one of it has been confirmed by top ranking military in brazil and in other it means in the military level which is uh it it's an independent than the the that is did you say independent of because presidents can come and go right but the military stay and as they stay they have to have a of communication among themselves so they can talk about interests of each other that applies in this country too we just don't acknowledge it as such it does presidents change but the military industrial complex is alive and well and continues so yeah right i i'd like to do that just a minute just one one last question i've got one minute so therefore south america i believe this is an international issue and that we ought to go back to our congresses and others but i also think we ought to have u.n presence and there's been some will your

26:46 help the citizens hearing on disclosure go to the england to ask for their help in this suspect and will your countries help petition us with that yes yes of course it's it's what we want we would like to we didn't say it you didn't say it i want to hear it okay that's good no no no i think that's good that's what we want to hear because thank you these official agencies they want in a place where their data can be shared officially with other countries because the ufo phenomenon by definition is global right like i said they don't they don't care about national boundaries they care about national security though and technology so i mean it's got to be a way to do it i think in new orleans may know better and so certainly more people in this room know better than i well that is the problem because uh as you know in in congress i'm sure you've dealt with many issues dealing with intelligence and national security there's all kinds of things going on under the rug you know i mean informally intelligence agencies they have their procedures but those are not made public okay stop please yeah the united states of america

27:47 knows of your instances you all said that most of you they don't tell us they know yours and then they make mockery of ass now that exists the u.s government my time is out i yield i yeah i yield back i know but we got to get to what we got to get to i want you all to know and i commend you for all that you do and that you work together but if our military gets your information and does whatever it does with it and i hope to make a better world and a better global presence so that we all might live the next 50 years that that we also work together to do i'm not so sure some work with you and some don't we got to open it up we got to address it or there will be no universe you all understand sure all right thank you thank you man thank you representative cook thank you chair i'd like to turn to uh colonel uh santa maria for a moment this uh department of

28:49 memo that stamped in june of 1980 that was uh i guess you actually showed this up on the screen also was is attached to your testimony or your story i should say and and then of course you testified about this is this memo directly to your experience that was indeed as someone's already said very dramatic and had what we call here and i think everywhere the wow factor to it is this the memo that relates to another that's and are you prohibited from telling us or something because but it sounds like this happened in this is something with the june's stamp on it it looks like our joint chiefs confirm if you can the joint chiefs of staff

29:50 of the united states of america have made these comments or at least received these from peru and we have we have this in writing as a document that talks these very experiences of shooting at ufos with the statement i have to say here that the source has been known as before in all respects in other words what you experienced was not even questioned by people and copies of this cia yeah i could the national security agency i could go on i mean is this a smoking gun or what for trying to open up some files here in the

30:50 united states i mean i uh but now i want to hear your answer if because it sounds well whether it was you or not something very similar to what you said happened it looks like in april or may so i'm thinking it might be you they're talking about here go ahead to take part in a conference on the of uh documents there was a journalist and then kane who and there was a filmmaker james fox who was making a documentary and they turned over a copy of this document to me and they said we would like to invite you to our country because our country has accredited this encounter and so when i reviewed the data in 1980

31:53 the only encounter with a ufo was my encounter and so this the date of this memorandum was about 28 days later so there were no other occurrences at the same base so i believe in the sharing of you can see that this was the event being referred to well thank you that and i just want everybody in this room to hear that even though again we have a humble observer that doesn't like to in any way overstate anything that was a really strong yes to my question any there's no other way to interpret and i appreciate that and i have to say since the way you described this and the fact that you sh you actually shot i'm going to use the word bullets i know that that's not the right word i'm much in knowledge of air force

32:53 weaponry and so on but you shot at this and are you a good are you a good target are you a good marksman i don't know the right word to use not a no no uh obviously you shot this and would you repeat again what these were 22 minutes and i was trying to fire when i first fired these were bursts of 30 millimeter shells so they're about a three centimeters wide 25 centimeters long

33:56 so it was just a barrage of fire and happened at all and that's what was so the possibility of not hitting my target it was practically impossible i've i've won awards for marksmanship so i have one some assumptions shooting contests and so they were like hey you're the one who needs to go up there you're the one who needs to chase this and i just don't want you to be quite so humble in the way you're explaining this please because it took a little too long to say hey he wouldn't really have missed this now he didn't say it that way he said it more carefully but there's no question you wouldn't have missed it based on everything you said and based on how those 30 caliber shells as you've would have taken out a truck i mean you didn't even have to be a great shop but they picked you because of your ability to shoot at

34:58 something they were worried about coming in on the air base am i correct and i want you to continue with your answer as far as what happened after you shot the way you we are always firing on a three meter by three meter target and in this case this was a 10 meter by 10 meter objective target so i mean the possibility of missing was zero i mean these hit the object and when it started to move away you know i put on my post combustion so that i could chase it to maneuver to to to get in position but it's this mental exercise of how am i going to do this and when it was moving away i thought how is it how can i better attack it so i tried different positions until

35:59 it came to the point when it it had supersonic speed when it would go up i tried to get it in my sights vertically but when i moved to the side of the ufo at a 1.3 mac the the ufo which was stopped it achieved 1.2 mac in a question of seconds without any engines this is something new can do to just go from zero to 1.2 mac vertically to reach my same position it's this is the way our aircraft worked because it was able to to anticipate my moves and then follow and then once i landed i met with a intelligence officers and we looked at catalogs to see what possible spy objects this might have been but they all had some

37:02 type of engine there was there was nothing similar to what i had observed so this was an unidentified object and we were unaware of any type of technology on earth that existed will you allow me to make a comment thanks mr troy yeah i'd like to hear dr he says you're from peru of course he has not expressed certain details but i wanted to share something that i believe that you should know if i could interrupt you for one moment i would ask the colonel to nod his head yes on any detail where i'm uh that either yes or no just to make sure that he's because i agree one of the problems is you have a not a problem in my opinion but you have somebody that does not like to in any way bring attention to himself or overstate his own abilities or what

38:02 he did when he just description that's uh denied by the our joint jesus status uh was amazing i just want him to confirm what you say because i do want to believe that it would be useful this penalty to have him acknowledge anything you say that would add to that one of the things that that we have heard in previous days is the possibility that many of these ufo events are due to er earth earthly craft but in the case of colonel maria we can prove that this was not anything any technology we see here on earth in the military terminology there was a wall of fire basically that he came up that this object came up against there's nothing on earth that could defend itself against that specifically in that time not even up to date not because it it

39:04 was able to to only defend itself but as the colonel well you asked him what was the the impact that it had on that it actually there was no impact it absorbed all of these all of these rounds it actually absorbed that is absolutely impossible for any or any technology that we have here on earth to be able to absorb that type of that type of garage for just a moment and say do you agree with the import two or three important points there that that dr troy just made geez yes i do agree because over time we have talked about the possible situations and the different perspectives that that exist obviously i fired and there should have been some sort of impact but there was nothing there was no the the the the bullets didn't even explode

40:04 there was no explosion on the the barrage of the of what i was firing okay thank you very much and i uh i'd like to love to get to continue with this but i do need to ask another question here with just a minute uh on my timeline you have one minute left that's right that's why i said i'd like to go over here to mr uh excuse me mr or colonel sanchez your system in uruguay that apparently has been in existence for 33 years you that uh to track and keep track of anything that's uh cited uh it's called i can't remember the operation name of it or the uh excuse me let me grab my notes i'm so mesmerized by the previous testimony um but uh your the system you have where you outlined the five or six steps to even get qualified to be seriously looked at and then tracked as far as any ufo sightings

41:06 that that that your organization in keeps track of do you have records of things similar to what we've just been talking about with colonel santa maria and uh i uh i'm not sure peru and you're they do have the same language don't they well you obviously heard everything anyway but through these translations so i'd like to know anything that might be in that uh that kind of talks about this sort of thing and and since i'll be out of time if you keep your answer somewhat short but uh go ahead we for the last 33 years have had a an air force commission that also is accountable to the public on all issues dealing with ufos this commission also has military and civilian members and also does have archives of 1300

42:08 cases that had been investigated three percent of which there are 39 or 40 cases now that have been solved because of the level of bizarreness that that they presented and and uruguay has scientifically addressed the ufo issue and does not rule out the element but for this we do need evidence we do have cases such as that which colonel santamaria mentioned and how a fighter jets were and following glowing objects and sometimes they would get a close to and how these objects would get close to air bases throughout latin america thank you a wise course by the way thank you trust verify senator thank you

43:12 i'd like to start with our colleague from brazil yes uh you mentioned that the government responded uh from an point of view to the parent uh violent attacks that took place in the amazon area killing people now that's the first at least that i'm aware of anywhere in the world where uh an attack resulting in loss of life that was the product of a flying saucer extraterrestrial effort could you elaborate a little bit more specifically on the investigation that was made over the the death of these people yes sir we don't know for what reason that took place but that happened during two or three years like 1976 77 78 we had uh

44:13 casualties at least four casualties and we have a record of 400 people attacked not only people but also animals were attacked by these pins of light they would come from this bosch those spaceships sometimes they were referred to like a can with a and and two persons two human-like creatures inside of it operating that that spaceship this has been described in detail by lots of people who live in the area of salgadu especially in the island of kolaris which is 60 or 70 miles from the city of belain and this has also been reported by the now the the very interesting thing about it is that when the military decided to camp there and to conduct their

45:15 the attacks stopped very rare attacks took place in other areas but not where the military were and also when the military decided to change their camping from one point of the island to another point of the island the objects that would be hovering the the those previous point that private point where the the the operations were taking were taking place would move to the other area like it in in the own words of the commander of the operation saucer or yolanda like if these intelligences knew what the military were doing in that area that that's very amazing these are only 440 pages of a total of 2 000 pages that were produced as a result of the operation saucer i would like to address this to you i i

46:16 would like that you have time to to examine this because this contain very hard information collected in a military fashion by military men on duty investigating ufo in a not top secret but confidential sometimes reserved operation by the brazilian air force and in the amazon indians has the military who've been in charge of this investigation have they been transparent with the in brazil as i told before uh on that days we are under military dictatorship so there wasn't much presently after the left yes the gentleman that conducted the operation saucer the commander of it a captain at that time and he retired as a cornell and 20 years after the operation saucer was shut down this man called me and invites me to his

47:18 place to his house in rio de janeiro where he was living and i spent two days with him interviewing him extensively where he gave me full details of everything that happened during those four months and he also described me how he and his man had a close encounter with the creatures that came in those and that actually this this main uh encounter with the nailing that took place in mid-december 1977 was what caused the operations officer to be shut down and in my reading of it is because the brazilian military wouldn't know what to do if this contacts open contact among military and extraterrestrial start being regular in the amazon what we can do now so then the operational software was shut down but

48:19 just to add a few more pieces of information that it was only asked to say uh shut down to make pretend because the person then in a second level much more secret and was conducted for several more months under military us military command in brazilian territory well i think you partially answered the next question was that was there a u.s presence interfacing with your military in the investigation of these ufos yes sir you have documentary uh evidence of that i have the reports given to me by the commander of the operation sorcerer that he interacted many many times with brazilian intelligence agents members and u.s intelligence

49:21 intelligence should be the cia that will be the cia and also military they will be all over the amazon looking for the same kind of information that we are looking for about who are those intelligences that pilot those machines do you not find that someone bizarre that our government now officially says that there's no investigation that we were involved with no documentation i would say that is more than bizarre let me move on to my even our government is admitting in the forest end that there has been official investigation now we started in brazil in 204 a movement a campaign called ufos freedom of information now to to request the government to open its and we have succeeded it's uh it's the only model like this in in in this planet where the society

50:21 have asked its government to come clear about it and it came at least partially because we have got 208 to 2010 not only uh 400 4 and 500 pages of your full document but also like three to four hundred pictures of ufos this is all given to the society this is has all been put in the national archives anybody can go to the national archives in brasilia or in real life was there panic in the streets when this was revealed not at all not for a single minute so the people were mature enough to accept this knowledge absolutely let me go to my friend from uh do you have any knowledge of american military presence or intelligence presence interfacing with the officials in chile gathering information on ufos not really except if you look historically some of the fiaa documents

51:23 released by the cia or the defense usually was the the defense attache office that they would if it was a very important case they would send those guys to collect the information but uh so historically in the some of the uh release files there are occasionally some documents about chile but uh not so i have not i have not seen and like i said general bermudez the head of the of the committee actually wanted to have a relationship but he wanted to be open and official and we didn't want that no we didn't want that says a lot uh with respect uh and and you've drafted or you've worked with uh danny sheehan in drafting a right he can come from this body trying to refer this matter uh to the general assembly of the united states yeah because there has to be a like like i said on on the first day in

52:25 this hearing could you circulate that document uh as soon as possible to the members so we can begin to digest okay okay although we have really not this is a kind of thing that i realize we're all very sophisticated in dealing with drafts and first writings but we can massage something as long as we have something in our hands okay let me go to my uh colleague from uruguay did i understand you correctly that your system of investigation has transparent and open to the public from the very beginning is that did i understand that properly

53:33 so that the public could follow all of the ufological activity in uruguay there are also press conferences any the information is even taken to the schools to talk to them about this and even educate them on this on this issue this commission is made up by both civil and military it has a work methodology that is designed a or that was adopted in 1979 in this methodology was also was also shared with china you just said this was brought to the schools so it could be educated to the young people of your country is that correct yes that's correct the ufo issue is something that everybody likes to hear about especially young people at least in uruguay and they request the air force they request that the air force go and give

54:34 talks to the kids and one minute uh was uh quickly uh dr cho and uh colonel santa maria uh when the u.s helicopter retrieved the materials from the downed ufo aircraft was there no reaction to a violation of your sovereignty by the united states of america or do you just accept these kind of violations as a matter of course based on the testimony that a military

55:36 jordan provided this was circulated in the ufos groups in peru it never made it to the and the press is the same here as it is in peru they don't really talk about it and so the media generally try to cover up any type of thing like this and so there is no so uruguay approach to the issue the uh colonel senator maria who gave the order to shoot was that your own initiative or did it come from a higher headquarters as you were selected and taking off the order was to intercept and destroy

56:38 because this is something that could invade our airspace that's right that answers my question uh thank you thank you uh i think my time has expired i can't get to argentina uh thank you very much and with that we will go to representative bartlett thank you very first i want to apologize for my this is a national day of prayer in the united states and for a long time i had been scheduled to be the main speaker at a county-wide national day of prayer breakfast this morning and i said so i fulfilled that obligation came here so soon as i could we have your testimony then thank you all very very much while our military and our government is saying that there's no such thing as uh no possibility of a ufo coming from a foreign but from another uh world

57:41 they of course admit that there are ufos ufo simply means unidentified flying object and the air force says that in their project blue book there were 701 of them that they wish away some way or another so they do admit they're unidentified flying objects they then they simply are denying categorically i think that they could be of origin but while they seem to pooh-pooh the whole thing here and relegate it to the haha corner they apparently are are aggressive in participating in investigations of uso in south america and i just like to start here with mr gavarden go down the that you tell each of us briefly is this in your country and to what extent yes it is actually i'd like to take this opportunity to speak about crashes it has been said here in this table and during the presidential years days that crashes of ufos have happened

58:44 most of them in old days but there is at one recent crash and it took place in brazil in 1996 it is called the virginia case in which alien spacecraft crashed and at least two creatures were captured and offered no resistance to its capture but they died right after they were and this procedure were taken of of rescuing the debris of the ufo and capturing the creatures were taken both by the fire department of the city of virginia with the army personnel of nearby and in the next day the following day of the capture we already knew that u.s intelligence and u.s military and as well as u.s doctors were sent by the u.s consulate in sao paulo to the

59:46 city of virginia to follow the procedures the doctors were sent medical doctors from united states to follow what was being done about the creatures because they died and nobody could explain how were their morphology how they function and we know for a fact because this is a very well cases that has been investigated for by at least 70 ufo researchers including ufo researchers from united states as dr roger lear dr james hertog and deceased john mark from the harvard university they have been to brazil they confirmed what the uf researchers from brazil discovered and we know for a fact that at least one of those two creatures were taken to united states by us military and it was taken in one

1:00:46 of the the the buffalo airplanes that serve the us embassies and consulates in south america when it came back to united it brought back to to here one of the creatures and part of the object that that crashed that were rescued that were by the brazilian military yes uh well in chile i don't have really much information about the other than what i said earlier that there were some documents you know from the from the cia but they tend to be old but i do want to bring up a case that was mentioned by my colleague chanetti uh which happened in bolivia and we don't have anybody from bolivia here so i'll i'll speak briefly about that case because i'm familiar with and that's the it's a crash too that took place in which is on the border of bolivia in argentina in may of 1978. in this case we do have some documents not majestic

1:01:48 12 type documents which are controversial but these are officially released documents under the freedom of information act including a telex from secretary of state cyrus vance at the time and also air force officers from the defense attache office under a project that was called project moon which is well established that existed which was for the recovery of space i mean that's how they started as soon as the space age took off you know in 1957 then the air force created this project moon dust for the recovery of space but according to one document uh they they list space debris and in those days only two countries had space projects that was the united states and the soviet union and then it says unidentified flying objects in the same document so when this incident happened uh two officers from the defense attache which is which were stationed in la paz

1:02:49 the capital of bolivia sun somehow showed up in this remote and unfortunately for them as they were coming in the airport they were photographed by a local reporter and the picture that you know you can see them they're trying to hide their faces uh but there they were they were photographed and the picture was published in the press so they they cover stories that they were on vacation but that's not a type of city you go on vacation number one they were not with their wives so obviously that was a cover story and a pretty bad one nevertheless this was in a very remote we only have probably a very partial file from the u.s there's only a few documents i'm sure there's plenty more where the case gets a little murky is as to whether something was really retrieved and taken back to the u.s or it may still be there because it was in an extremely remote area and there had been like a landslide a mountain there was a an expedition

1:03:50 initially by by the army by the bolivian army under a and they finally got to the area but they didn't have the equipment and the facilities to do something and there are some rumors that something was retrieved and taken to the united but then according to an american reporter who did investigate this case whose name was bob pratt he's now he thinks that they never did retrieve because it was such a remote area so that object might still be there but again it shows that there are there is an interest on the part of the united states and we have uncovered some documents uh but there's probably much more thank you carlos sanchez ufo investigation there is no official exchange with the united states the only exchanges that we have had with the united states have been

1:04:51 it was the recovery in 2011 of the star engine delta ii which fell over our airspace i personally went to recover that but in as regards ufo no exchange agreement with them nor have we carried out any official exchange with them dr choi in the case of my country there is an official exchange of information this is a constant exchange of information we can see because afterwards we can see that information doesn't make it to the united states when there are ufo crashes for example in the case that we mentioned before

1:05:52 unfortunately there are no official documents everything is at a secret but we have received many testimonies on on exchange of information colonel santa maria uh comments please on uh any participation of our either intelligence or military or any other part of our government in investigations of ufos in your country there is an exchange of information to the intelligence communities on these issues mr germany yes well regardless i explained to senator in material of ufology on research i'm not

1:06:53 aware of any documentation exchange between argentina and united but regarding to other agencies as nasa or nasa as in several cases of argentina is a place where it's a lot of space junk there's a lot of debris satellites coming from international also other countries and i researched many cases where were many degrees coming but different different kind of um procedures and i came uh in the ca in case of uh nasa yes they asked for these particular cases if they were part of american missions and there was a few cases of retrieval yes but we were talking about only space debris oh thank you it's very interesting that there's apparently a different attitude on their part if it's outside this country then our country is total denial but if

1:07:54 if they really believed that then they wouldn't be participating in these uh investigations uh uh in south america uh mr igor um you have mentioned that operation saucer was shut down is that simply because it then went underground then went secret they continued the investigation but secret now uh the main reason of why the operations was shut down was because there was a an actual contact among the uh the military uh within your london the captain that was commanding the operation sausage and an extraterrestrial creature it took place on mid-december 1977 and as part of his duties the commander of the operations also has to go back to his commander a brigadier in the city of belen and report weekly what was going on during the operation saucer and when he did that that week then when he informed to his superior that he had an actual encounter with the creature two arms two legs a body a head with a helmet that came from a ufo three hundred feet

1:08:57 that almost landed close to the guajiramirin river when we reported that to brigadier his commander then when geoland was given order to shut down operation saucer and return all material and bring all his men from the jungle to the city and give it all the material all the information then we realized we knew i've been information about it for quite 20 20 years i have gathered lots of information about it in my in my pursuit for for details of this that the operations officer changed its name changed its personnel all the three dozen men that were commanded by wood and jolanda were taking off the scene and the new took the operation under a different and under u.s military command from several months after december 1977.

1:10:02 thank you one quick question to uh colonel santa maria what would be the less than one minute less than one minute i saw that thank what would be the arguments for and against uh the suggestion that what you were dealing with was since was kind of like a giant hologram rather than something your bullets had no effect on it i'm just asking you know if that was the argument that could it have been a kind of a giant hologram what would be the arguments for that what would be the arguments against that a hologram you could change

1:11:07 it's an object that we can't understand if in fact there was no effect of bullets on it i'm just curious about you know d we're dealing with with a phenomenon here that uh uh that we cannot explain in terms of our of physics and and so forth here and i'm just wondering what the various options are thank you all very much all right we can have a second round and some additional we will probably have a very short round okay thank you yes one question per person however thank you very much for being here today great testimony thank you i i would like to hear from each one of you the what's the attitude here it is well if you believe in unidentified fine or you believe that there's spacecraft that comes in it's there's been such a damper by both the

1:12:09 and our government about believing this i mean you're sort of made fun of if you if you look at this and say yes this is real what's the attitude of both the people and your press and you we'll start with mr jordan thank this is definitely not a matter of there is a lot of data that has been produced by civilian ufo researchers military for researchers a very few but very dedicated scientists for the last 60 years to confirm without any question at all that we are being visited by species of more advanced at least technologically more advanced civilization that come here and as that they design they construct like a boeing does this it's boeing it's it's airplanes here

1:13:10 they must have something like that in their planets and they visit other planets in in the in the and in the universe it is as simple as thinking what we are doing we are at this very moment on mars on moon taking photo of satellites of of the rings of jupiter or whatever we are exploring our backyard the difference is that our presently only allow us to explore this backyard but if we're doing this now in 2013 in 20 years and 30 years in 50 years we will be able to do interplanetary trips with crews inside our spaceships safely effectively go and come back so if we can do this in the near future and we're working on that definitely

1:14:10 this this advanced civilization that is started the evolutionary process much before us they are doing the same and they may have been doing the same for quite some time perhaps hundreds of years thousands of years we don't know the universe is so full of life and the variety of this in the formats and levels of uh evolutionary process it's just unthinkable for us at this but we are grasping the surface of this we are doing history here we are we're doing what we are supposed to do to question and to whatever we find out take to the society make the society that we are being visited because we may very well at any point receive their visitation in an open and frank way and the world has to be prepared for that it's not out of question that one day we will will will change exchange with them will

1:15:12 engage will live with other societies from other planets it's just a matter of time thank you thank you antonio yes uh well you're asking about the social attitude of the public and uh and the president in the press yeah in latin america i would say in general uh it is much more open than in the united states whenever there is an important ufo case it gets covered in in mainstream so if it would be like here being covered by the washington post by the new york times but seriously or at least semi seriously i mean there is some ridicule of course but not as bad as the us the scientific community on the other hand has been very conservative generally speaking in latin america i would say that there might be more scientists quietly doing research in the us than in latin america although that is changing

1:16:14 thank now that they see these official commissions you know then that gives them some cover right some general that is attached to the civil aviation agency as professors on the universities you know then that gives them cover but in the past it was curious to see that the press and the general public and the governments were more open but the scientific community was more closed uh interesting um they were just afraid maybe you know because the the the peer pressure is is always bad in one thing that general bermudez told me which i find it very interesting is that he said the pilots the airline were very cautious normally because you know in the past airline pilots they never wanted to report ufos publicly because it may affect their career right they don't want to be known as the ufo not you know that so he said they they're trying to to condition them that it's okay i mean after all this this committee is from

1:17:15 the civil aviation and these are official forms but he said it's they're still i mean they're probably it's easier for them from the military pilots because if their commander tells a military pilot here's a report you fill the form right officers follow orders right but the airline pilots is still volunteer uh but the fact that this agency is with the civil aviation that is is also changing and of course because they are with the civil aviation that's their primary source of information usually comes from pilots who are in the course of their flying they're seeing something they don't know if that is another air traffic or something else so they will call the control tower says well i see an object you know in that corner do you have any in your traffic and then usually they control that well in some cases they probably do and then that's filed away and it's not a ufo cases but in other cases they don't so then the control tower says no we have no schedule traffic there and these communications

1:18:16 are recorded and preserved in the old days probably they were erased after a while but now they're preserved and then there's official reporting forms that the committee gives them and then but it is still up to airline pilots that party is still volunteer whether they want to fill the report or so they have to be conditioned right but they're being conditioned by the government so hopefully that will change colonel i wanted to tell you that the uruguayan air force does not rule out the hypothesis that these are this phenomenon is one that we've seen occur in uruguayan airspace could be different probes something else but we need scientific evidence to prove it that's why our commission works using scientific methodologies but we do so through the air force i believe that

1:19:17 people's attitude and media's attitude in uruguay are very given the fact that for 33 years the air force has been spearheading ufo investigations in uruguay and so i believe that the uruguayan people have reliable and transparent official information and understand that the situation in each country is different in the case of brazil united states these are massive countries with a large tracts of land and very sophisticated defense systems it's not the same in uruguay it doesn't uh develop weapons we don't have aeronautic special aeronautic or space research so i think that's why there's greater however in the case of the united states it's something that we all know defense

1:20:18 is very important and so they have to keep some secrets when it comes to information i i've heard people mention over these days that uh you know these ufos could be a new a prototype of an unmanned aircraft and might make things difficult for the department of defense or especially for companies that build these you know lockheed or boeing and that's why i believe that there are greater reservations and i think that that's natural in terms of sharing information as in terms of what's been flying around out there that's at least my personal thank you very much yes yes yes you were talking about how this about believing or not in ufos i support what our colleague from brazil said it's not a matter of belief it's a matter of information the information is out there

1:21:20 and over these five days we've been talking about it very openly however and i'm struck by that how this is addressed in the united states they underscore the fact that that these civilizations are potentially aggressive you know the the nuclear aspects of this that's very interesting because we don't look at it that way it seems that there might be politically correct you know because they may be offensive in some way but in peru when we hear about cases of we have very credible testimony of people who've had a contact in many different cases but it's always been with civilizations where there have been attempts made at engaging and having communication if you look at the case of santa maria where there was this quote unquote clash and and where

1:22:20 all of the ammo was fired you would expect a response from the other but there was none it seemed like it was like a cat and mouse game and if they wanted to destroy they would clearly with their technology they would have been able to do that and they haven't done it so i think our approach is very different it's not we look at superior technology but not military uh framework but there are many visits that we're we have to look at it unfortunately this is we haven't been able to explain it scientifically yet thank you very much for your karma uh colonel yes just with respect for how the media treats us when there's a ufo case i've worked with air airlines and crews and i would say that starting in the 90s pilots talk very openly about

1:23:22 experiences that they've had what seen what they've heard because again nobody makes fun of you or laughs at you it's very normal now to talk about sightings and that doesn't have any impact whatsoever on someone's career and i'm very pleased that that's the in my experience with argentina i have three decades as a journalist international and i saw evolution and when i started the media was more kind of kind of septic was was hard to be interviewed was hard to kind of open this pandora box of the subject but i saw it's all over the world the scene is changing for example with series history channel ancient aliens or youth hunters the people is kind of totally

1:24:23 more open today for examples we are discovering planets similar to the earth every day in the news this is incredible how the astronomy and the ecobiology is is every day in your breakfast table the newspaper and that attitude also help in with the ufos too and for example regarding with the pilots it's interesting how the latino american pilots are so open every time i travel i go to the coffee to talk with the pilots and the pilots have different to the united states who the pilots are more shy and i said what happened we have only activities out of the border and not here yeah this is interesting sometimes i feel ridiculous asking but i always go also to the airline i travel in united american alliance i said no they don't talk too much but i think it's a totally paradigm shift it's a

1:25:24 shift now and in in all levels of consciousness and i think it's positive for the new when i was growing up as a ufologist yeah my own family was kind of so he liked these subjects and they were not kind of accepting that also the media but i think it's it's totally a new hope for all of us thank you very much um i think we have time for one question from each panel member if if you have one i have a question and uh dr dr choi was absolutely my straight man on this one my question is to you uh colonel santa maria the there was a phenomena in the surprise that the object the ufo did not was not attacking back and would you re respond to that

1:26:30 yes when i began to attack it was out i just approached it and saw that it was an object that was unknown to me i just went to see what it was and i had to turn my back to return to the base i thought i don't know maybe it's going to start chasing me now but but nothing of the sort happened thank you representative kilpatrick thank you madam chair to colonel sanchez and dr choi what kind of scientific information do you seek that would verify the phenomena

1:27:35 i have no idea what it is we're actually so we use scientific methods to conduct our investigations i can say that in 1993 we saw two luminous spheres hovering over a field in the interior part of uruguay these luminous spheres that measured 30 or 40 centimeters no more than that yes they left prints were scientifically through laboratory studies we saw a a disman a diminishment of phosphorus zinc and so samples were taken from where it had the soil we saw there were eight tracks there and again there was a reduction in phosphorus zinc and

1:28:36 we continue to use scientific methods to investigate in an attempt to see if this was reminiscent of any type of other we've seen because of the color the but we don't know because we don't have anything else to analyze however we continue to work on projects that have been underway for several years and we're working in with norway in an analysis of lights that have been seen hovering over uruguay over over dams in mountainous areas of rivers where there have been witnesses we have photographs we're trying to contest conduct a film and photographic analysis and again we're also working with chile on this we have a written agreement between the uruguayan and the chilean air force in

1:29:36 the sharing of information and data and uruguay and chile have a investigation of ufos on easter island thank you in my particular case we were given questionnaires it showed us how we were supposed to interview people then we had to cross this information with weather data et cetera this morning i was talking about the approaching and going back to where they and so it defied conventional science

1:30:38 and we sought explanations we investigated for three years and saw the only way of understanding phenomenon again escaped traditional scientific canon that it was possible that we had to look for new possibilities and a conference i was saying that the only problem is if it's 73 million light years away how do you continue to analyze it and in 2010 there was a home in lima the capital of things started flying floating around things and exploded and there was a cell phone from the home's owner it was found in another house and 25 people saw how that particular cell phone it went from disappeared from one house and appeared in another house and it wasn't that it flew from one

1:31:40 place it disappeared from point a and reappeared in point b this is something like teleporting from the science fiction but it had witnesses people call this paranormal phenomenon is like almost like a cuss word in but it's we have to look at ways to try to understand these phenomena thank you representative cook yes colonel santa maria i'd like to ask you so that we can do due diligence on any possible other explanation or hologram explanation for example could you tell us what your air squad ordered you to do that day how many on the ground witnessed the globe as you've described it initially as about 600 meters above the earth at about five kilometers away

1:32:40 the base and particularly interested in how long at speeds that you described as 1.6 up to 1.6 mach speed you did this you you kept this globe in your sights when this balloon observed 1800 people who were in our morning and so they visually saw this globe radar had not detected it and i was ready to fly and so i got the order that there's an object that's not responding to radio communications it's not on the we thought it might be spy equipment and it was in restricted airspace for civilian flights so i was given the order this could be a spy object and so i was given the to pursue it and so

1:33:42 if it did not move away that i was supposed to engage it with fire so 1800 witnessed it but 400 people were in combat positions that if it started to attack that they would intervene so i as i fired and it moved away from the base the other 400 it kept their position they remained on and but and they saw that it moved up in the air and the object moved away so i chased it i think it was 1800 people who saw this very clearly thank you senator i i have no further questions i just want to congratulate the panel coming forward because you've a very unusual dimension to what we've been trying to prove and that is that our government has not been straightforward with

1:34:43 the american people well thank you for helping us prove that case yes representative our chair has asked two-thirds of the question that i was anxious to ask and the question i was going to ask was would you tell us just go down the line and tell us the attitudes of your people your press and your military and government and you've asked the question about the uh of the people and the and the press so let me just ask the question now i want just a one-word answer from you uh where your military and your government is on a scale of one to ten where one is open and accepting and investigative and 10 is denial and ridicule our country is pretty close to 10. tell us tell us on that scale where your countries are just a number just a number being

1:35:44 zero total openness yeah one or zero total that's right yeah uh i would say we are three three pretty good two three okay well after this the iguazu forced the for the washroom letter and the recent meeting at the ministry of defense in brazil two weeks ago only two weeks ago maybe we can go an an upgrade to one that's fantastic i don't know well i i think that we have to distinguish between um the the recognition that the ufo phenomenon is real and the extraterrestrial hypothesis because that's another step so in the terms of the acceptance of ufos as a real phenomenon i mean we have the statement from general bermudez i another important ufologist in chile from the army is major bravo who was with the aviation branch of the army that would be is a one i i know they totally recognize that

1:36:44 the ufo phenomenon is real but the extraterrestrial that's another question because then you would have to have a body or a piece of metal or something that really could be proven so there i don't know they they admit the possibility but there i would say maybe a six or as far as the et part but the ufo total acceptance that it's a real phenomenon in that it may pose possibly a threat to aviation and it that is something that governments should take seriously in south america that is accepted today in uruguay from the point of view of the uruguayan air force

1:37:49 the idea of extraterrestrials as a however there are 40 cases again that we've been unable to resolve because of how odd they are and you have civilian pilots military pilots that have that have these ufos and have taken photographs so i would say the openness in uruguay means that people have a good image of the information we're providing is they believe it's reliable and again we use scientific methods because there's no other way to do it from our point of and the groups that address ufos like spiritual groups that are also working and investigating this what we are proposing and we've even a conference in 2012 where we invited all of the groups in

1:38:50 uruguay that do these investigations i think people were very happy and i think there was acceptance thank you very much before giving my response i would like to clearly state that i profoundly love my country peru and i profoundly respect the armed forces of my country in fact they gave me the opportunity to with them and i profoundly admire the the american people here as well i want that to be very clear before i respond what you're asking me is very complex because at the moment when the peruvian government just decided to open this investigation office they were admitting that there that there was a reality to this and they were they're not going to open an office on unicorns and ghosts no that's not what we're doing but on the other hand this has been going on for 13 years and we have seen minimal results and when i talk to the

1:39:51 military personnel they say that they have seen ufos but they can't come out publicly and say because there is a policy that has not opened up and so i would say that that's why i couldn't give it a 10 but that would just be my response oh the argentina government doesn't pronounce and the extraterrestrial open but for in the history of our traditions for example in 1968 the president of argentina general longania said i believe in the flying saucers yo creon los platos that openness always exists and in that case was the president of a nation but the government is investigating the ufos with scientifically correct correctness in this moment and in the future maybe it will be some pronunciation that is it thank you thank you madam chair thank i want to thank our panel for being here

1:40:52 today this has been really interesting and your openness and what's happening in each of your countries has been i think a real eye-opener for the rest of us and at with that i'm going to conclude this hearing uh we will be back here at 1 45 meeting nature