Citizen Hearing 2013: Documents & Proof

0:00 this morning, you've testified before It's a daily. It's a daily thing. All of you stand and we'll have an affirmation. An affirmation of the Miss Howe uh Miss Howe is on the morning panel, so we'll excuse her. If you would repeat after me, I do hereby affirm I do hereby affirm that I will tell the truth, that I will tell the truth, and nothing but the to this committee today. to this committee today. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll proceed with uh And for the members, um since we were really cutting short on a couple of the members, we're going to reverse the order. We'll start with the Congressman and then the darling. Well, no, I don't want to get take any credit for that. That was uh Congresswoman Woolsey that suggested that to me, and I'm I'm very Watch it. Watch it. Dr. Wood, please. Yeah, I'm Dr. Bob Wood. Appreciate being on this committee

1:03 as a witness. I I got a PhD in physics so I could become a better engineer, and it turned out pretty well for me. I wound up working continuously for 43 years for one company, the Douglas Aircraft Company, becoming McDonnell Douglas, now a part of Boeing. My normal career there had me involved in the thermodynamics of keeping missiles cool, managing and selling the independent research and development projects of a couple of dozen scientists and engineers, designing radars to discriminate between Soviet ballistic missiles and their decoys, applying advanced technology to make the space station cheaper, better, and sooner, and finally helping to sell the Delta launch vehicle as a workhorse for NASA orbital payloads. In addition, I ran one project in the late '60s to find out how UFOs work. We didn't find out. And and one project on remote viewing, both of them proprietor. My involvement with questioned documents came shortly after I had retired from McDonald Douglas in 1993.

2:06 It was about the end of 1994 when my former colleague, Stan Friedman, from our old UFO research project, called me up and said that he had received a fax copy of an alleged war office training manual entitled Extraterrestrial Entities and Technology Recovery and Disposal. This is what it looks like. Was I interested in trying to dig The answer was yes, and I called the possessor of the 35 mm film from which this copy had been made, Don Berliner. Don was also interested in determining whether they might be genuine or fake, and he and I took the negatives to his local photo shop, where we both monitored the process of reproduction and printing. Don was further helpful in lending me the box in which the film was mailed. It had been mailed from a drugstore in La Crosse, Wisconsin on March 7th, 1994.

3:08 And actually, you should have an attachment that permits you to see these images that are showing. The manual itself consists of 28 numbered pages plus the cover and one document page control little I. There were six chapters and four appendices listed, but only the first appendix was shown. The manual was a simple summary of the project and a detailed set of instructions of how to handle the recovery and removal of extraterrestrial craft and living organisms or EBEs, extraterrestrial biological entities. Where to ship the parts, how to do all this, and how to deceive the public with security measures. It was stamped with a security caveat of top secret magic eyes only on every Of particular interest is a table that specifies where to send the parts or noting Area 51 S-4 and Blue Lab WP-61, both of which have been claimed by others to involve government UFO storage

4:12 Also, the authentication interest is page I, documenting removal and replacement pages and the initials of the Magic 12 Operations Officer The two sets of initials are EWL and JRT. Neither person has been identified. After I had a high-quality copy available, I was able to make an appointment with a public relations person from the Government Printing Office right here in Washington. A long-time employee of the public printer, Mr. McCarter was knowledgeable and helpful. He read the entire document while I waited, stopped several times to look more carefully, and then said something like, "Well, based on the content of this I would say it was probably a fake. But there's something remarkable that makes me think twice about it. If you look closely, you'll see that some of the Z's are slightly raised. This was happening with the type font in 1950s time because the least used letters, especially the Z, would get

5:14 some debris on the bottom of the lead, and when they dropped down, they sometimes would not fully seat. This is so unusual that I would say there is no doubt at all that they were printed in one of the presses in use at that time. We had one in this building and one in the basement of the Pentagon, and they were set up to handle top secret jobs with all the security controls in place. Because of the subtleties of the shape of the F and G letters, we identified the type font exactly, Monotype Modern, a popular one in heavy use at the time. Our conclusion, this government was authentically printed this document was authentically printed by the government for some reason in 1954. The success of this evaluation caused Stan Friedman to call me again and say that he had someone writing to that he had received many leaked documents from various sources. And that he lived in Big Bear Lake a lot closer to me than he in Eastern Canada

6:14 did. Therefore, with proper introduction, my wife and I visited Tim Cooper at his home there. He said he was willing to share these documents because he wanted to determine their authenticity. He had become interested in the topic because his father had told him a story about his own involvement in covertly printing a UFO retrieval report and had told Lynn Stringfield about this Tim Cooper shared copies of several of his documents from several different sources that were included in October 1998 presentation to UFO Symposium jointly with my son and colleague Ryan. This is the first time that significant authentication reports had been presented to the UFO community and the word spread. Actually, Linda was there at that The word spread resulting in a sponsor asking to further authenticate these documents and publish them widely. The sponsor also wanted Ryan and me to make a television documentary on their

7:15 authenticity and it was produced and shown on the Sci-Fi channel as The We decided that there was interest by other researchers so so Ryan created the for easy access to all the documents we There are 10 sources for 103 documents, 3,800 pages. The website shows 54 64 of these documents including 27 of them before 1948. Many of the documents we have received from multiple different sources uh to Tim Cooper. We have established beyond any doubt in our minds that he was not the author of any of these documents in several ways. We have original envelopes used to mail the documents. More importantly, we have used some forensic linguistics including spelling errors, word and sentence length, and syntax to show that

8:17 Cooper's writing, of which we have a huge sample about the history of White Sands Missile Range, is inconsistent with any of the questioned documents. It is clear that if there were secret projects studying UFOs, there would be written records. In the days of carbon copies, leaks would be expected to happen. So, plans would be made to deal with them. Such plans would involve controlling the media as much as possible while denigrating and discouraging reality reporting, maximizing the idea that it's easy to fake anything these days with This is not true when you have original paper and ink, and recognizing that many of the documents were leaked well before Authentication of documents is a very orderly process. First, you establish provenance if Usually unlikely for illegally leaked There are two kinds of tests that be can be performed, physical and intellectual. The physical ones involve dating the

9:18 ink, watermark, or paper, identifying the typewriter make and model, matching the type font and press, and comparing signatures, other notations, and handwriting. The intellectual tests look for anachronisms, comparing the language use, and comparing with known authentic More recently, the use of computerized forensic linguistics techniques permit one to make an estimate that a specific person was or was not the author of a questioned document. Signatures can be nearly identical if created with a polygraph device that permitted Truman to sign five letters at The identification of one aspect of a questioned document as being anomalous often results in a skeptic accepting none of the rest of the document, even though it might be filled with accurate It seems to be accepted in the intelligence community that fake documents, usually if not often, contain much valid information to help get it accepted as genuine throughout.

10:19 Each part of a questioned document should be evaluated for its specific information, and appearance, and In the last decade, I have presented lectures in coordination with my son Ryan, author of Magic Eyes Only, identifying 74 crash recoveries on the crash recoveries. My I presented lecture My lectures are on the authenticity of the documents and the influence of the alien presence on our society. For me, the leaked documents, the synthesis with the literature and papers of the ufology community, have provided extra insight into how we got to where we are. The conclusion I've come to is incredibly wild, that those in charge have been successful in keeping secret the greatest story of mankind while covertly spending staggering sums to create hidden underground resources and reverse engineer the technology. Until we can quantify the alien threat,

11:20 how can we know whether these actions are good or bad? Let us hope, maybe with the help of one race of good aliens, that God will maybe do the right thing have to happen. Here in the Beltway, I'm told that everyone has an agenda. Very few want the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. I think the American people deserve most of it. We paid for it. Thank you very much, Dr. Wood. Ms. Howe, please. We've heard from you before. If you could limit as best you can so we make up some time, please. Thank you, Senator Gravel. To compliment what Dr. Wood has presented, I thought that I would try to acquaint you with some of the text. And if we could have the image number one, the title uh is Extraterrestrial Entities and

12:21 Technology Recovery and Disposal. And at the bottom is the War Office stamp. Majestic 12 Group, April 1954. Image two. This manual has been prepared especially for Majestic 12 units. Its purpose is to present all aspects of Majestic 12, so authorized personnel will have a better understanding of the goals of the group, be able to more expertly deal with unidentified flying objects, extraterrestrial technology and entities, and increase the efficiency of future operations. Image three. Operation Majestic 12 was established by special classified presidential order on September 24th, 1947 at the recommendation of Secretary of Defense James V. Forrestal and Dr.

13:22 Vannevar Bush, chairman of the Joint Research and Development Board. Operations are carried out under a top secret research and development intelligence group directly responsible only to the president of the United States. The goals of the MJ-12 group Image four. are as follows. The recovery for scientific study of all materials and devices of a foreign or extraterrestrial manufacturer that may be become available. Such material and devices will be recovered by any and all means deemed necessary by the group, the MJ-12 group. The recovery for scientific study of all entities and remains of entities not of terrestrial origin which may become available through independent action by those entities or by misfortune or military action, meaning we might shoot them down. The establishment and administration of

14:22 special teams to accomplish the above The establishment and administration of special secure facilities located at secret locations within the continental borders of the United States for the receiving, processing, analysis, and scientific study of any and all material and entities classified as being of origin by the group of the special Establishment and administration of covert operation to be carried out in concert with Central Intelligence to effect the recovery for the United States of extraterrestrial technology and entities which may come down inside the territory of or fall into the possession of foreign powers. The establishment and maintenance of absolute top secrecy concerning all the above operations. The current situation. It is considered as far as the current situation is concerned that there are

15:22 few indications that these objects and their builders pose a direct threat to the security of the United States, despite the uncertainty as to their ultimate motives in coming here. Certainly, the technology possessed by these beings far surpasses anything known to modern science, yet their presence here seems to be benign, and they seem to be avoiding contact with our species, at least for the present. Several dead entities have been recovered along with a substantial amount of wreckage and devices from down craft, all of which are now under study at various locations. No attempt has been made by extraterrestrial entities either to contact authorities or to recover their dead counterparts of the down craft, even though one of the crashes was the result of direct military action. The greatest threat at this time arises from the acquisition and study of such advanced technology by foreign powers

16:23 unfriendly to the United States. It is for this reason that the recovery and study of this type of material by the United States has been given such a high priority. Image five. Extraterrestrial technology is defined as follows. Aircraft identified as not manufactured in the United States or any terrestrial foreign powers, including experimental military or civilian aircraft. Aircraft in this category are generally known as unidentified flying objects or UFOBs. Such aircraft may appear as one of several shapes and configurations and exhibit extraordinary flight Objects and devices of unknown origin or function manufactured by processes or of materials not consistent with current technology or scientific knowledge. Wreckage of any aircraft thought to be of extra-terrestrial manufacture or

17:27 Such wreckage may be the results of accidents or military action. Materials that exhibit unusual or extraordinary characteristics not consistent with current technology or scientific knowledge. Extra-terrestrial biological entities, acronym all caps EBEs, are described as responsible for their development, are demonstrably different from those postulated or observed in Homo sapien. Next slide. Description of craft. Documented extra-terrestrial craft, UFOBs, are classified in one of four categories based on general shape as Elliptical or disc shape. This type of craft is of a metallic construction and dull aluminum in color. They have the appearance of two pie pans or shallow dishes pressed together and may have a raised dome on the top or No seams or joints are visible on the

18:29 surface, giving the impression of one-piece construction. Discs are estimated from 50 to 300 ft in diameter and the thickness is approximately 15% of the diameter, not including the dome, which is 30% of the disc diameter and extends another 4 to 6 ft above the main body of the disc. The dome may or may not include windows or ports, and ports are present around the lower rim of the disc in some Some disc shape craft are equipped with lights on the top and bottom and also around the rim. These lights are not visible when the craft is at rest or not functioning. There are generally no visible antenna or projections. Landing gear consists of three extendable legs ending in circular landing pads. That's at least in some cases, not all. When fully extended, this landing gear supports the main body 2 to 3 ft above

19:29 the surface at the lowest point. A rectangular hatch is located along the equator or on the lower surface of the There are fuselage or cigar shapes. Documented reports of this type of craft are extremely rare. Air Force radar reports indicate they are approximately 2,000 ft long and 95 ft thick. And apparently, they do not operate in the lower atmosphere. Very little information is available on the performance of these craft, but radar reports have indicated speeds in excess of 7,000 mph. They do not appear to engage in the violent and erratic maneuvers associated with the smaller types of craft. There are ovoid or circular shapes. This type of craft is described as being shaped like an ice cream cone, being rounded at the large end and tapering to a near point at the other end. They are

20:30 approximately 30 to 40 ft long and the thick end diameter is approximately 20% of the length. There is an extremely bright light at the pointed end. There is also airfoil or triangular shape. This craft is believed to be new technology due to the rarity and recentcy of the observations. Radar indicates an isosceles triangle profile, the longest side being nearly 300 ft in length. Little is known about the performance of these craft due to the rarity of good sightings, but they are believed capable of high speeds and abrupt maneuvers similar to those exceeding the performance of the previous craft. Next slide. Description of extraterrestrial biological entities acronym EBEs. Examination of remains recovered from wreckage of UFOBs indicates that extraterrestrial biological entities may be classified into two distinct

21:31 categories as follows. EBA type one, these entities are humanoid and might be mistaken for human beings of the oriental race if seen from a distance. They are bipedal, 5 ft 5 in 5 ft 5 ft 4 in in height and weigh 80 to 100 Proportionally they are similar to humans although the cranium is somewhat larger and more rounded. The skin is a pale chalky yellow in color, thick and slightly pebbled in appearance. The eyes are small, wide set, almond shape with brownish irises with very large pupils. The whites of the eyes are not like that of humans but have a pale gray cast. EBA type two. These entities are Could I interrupt you? What are you reading from again? I I want to emphasize that. The SAM 101 Majestic 12 Group Technical Operations Manual that Dr. Wood presented his reasons for why it is

22:33 real. It is entitled Extraterrestrial Entities and Technology Recovery and Disposal Top Secret Magic Eyes Only and this was stamped April 1954 by Majestic 12 Group with the war stamp that was in use through the early 50s before the Pentagon and So this is a government document? This is a government document document that's that was printed in 1954 and if this was printed in 1954, it was written before 1954 and that the 1947 Roswell crashes are part of what this is talking about and I was only going to conclude so that you would realize how much detail in 1954 the government of the United States had not only about the types of craft but the types of beings that we have retrieved and we have in a variety of

23:34 underground facilities. You've made your point very well and I'd like to go on to the next witness. Dr. Dr. Our Canadian friends, Dr. Friedman, yours. Mr. Friedman, and I'm a Canadian and an American. I'm a bifurcated you know. doctor, how's that? What? Okay, enough It's a privilege to be here representing both countries, if you will. Uh I found the proceedings fascinating. I would like to throw in a comment that isn't in the written piece that I submitted. Within 2 weeks of the start of World War a person was appointed to be the chief censor of the United States to make sure that material that might be of assistance to the enemy not be released. And two interesting aspects of that were the word uranium was not to show up

24:36 after a while. And that the effects of the Japanese Fugo balloons balloons carrying incendiaries which were supposed to send cause fires and all this sort of thing. Nothing was to be said about their impact so that they wouldn't know whether or not they were being useful or So, censorship is a major part of military operations, if you will. The second thing is that I'd like to is that we've talked about the press. We've talked about the government. The witnesses, but what we haven't talked about and the press, of course, what we haven't talked about is the scientific community and their failure to take this issue I've given 700 lectures at colleges and technical groups. And while I've been extremely well what I also find is that there are many,

25:38 many professors who think there's nothing to this subject, who are perfectly willing to state stupid things, really, about the impossibility of this, that, or the other thing. Four basic rules for debunkers, which I have found. And we need to be cognizant of this. First, don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up. Second, what the public doesn't know, I'm not going to talk. Third, if you can't attack the data, attack the people. And fourth, do your research by proclamation. Investigation is too much trouble and nobody will know the difference anyway. So, that's the kind of climate we're in Okay, now to get to my prepared brief I must admit that I am a document hound and I visited 20 different archives, including many visits to the Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan presidential archives, the National Archives, the Library of Congress Manuscript Division. There have been special sites, such as

26:39 the Harvard archives, papers of Donald Menzel, the Princeton archives, papers of James Forrestal, MIT archives, papers of Vannevar Bush, the American Philosophical Society Library, which has papers of Edward Donald Menzel, Philip Klass, Boston University Archives, John Fuller, Ben Simon. There have been surprises, and I've seen many phony documents not at archives, especially ones supposedly dealing with the Majestic 12 group that you've already heard about. And I note with interest that all the copies of my book Top Secret Magic are Did the government send somebody in to buy them all up so you wouldn't have access? That's a parenthetical comment. I didn't bring that many books. If I known they were going to do that, I would have brought more. There have been surprises in my

27:41 especially ones about documents supposedly dealing with the Majestic 12 I am fortunate that I worked under security for 14 years. I can't hold a candle to Bob. He worked for 40 years, but I dealt often with classified documents and learned the rules of the game. I have found that there are many misconceptions about documents. These include A, documents are periodically reviewed for declassification and must be declassified after a certain number of That's simply not true. Happens sometimes, but it's not a rule. B, people working on classified projects such as Majestic 12 would of course talk to a spouse about what they were doing. I had a clearance for 14 years, never talked to my wife about classified work. Dr. Vannevar Bush's secretary told me she worried about saying something classified in her sleep because her husband did not have a

28:44 C, having a certain level of such as top secret gives one access to all top secret documents. This is false. One needs a need to know. I couldn't get access to nuclear submarine radiation shielding though I had the appropriate security But I couldn't get a need to know from Admiral Rickover for my aircraft nuclear propulsion radiation shielding work. The clearance wasn't the problem, the need to know was the problem. And I must say there are people in Washington who think because they're big shots in Washington, if something were going on about this, they would know about it. Even though they don't know about it. There's a notion that higher security documents can be referenced in lower security ones. That's not true, either. People goof on occasion, but I Also, I've been challenged after all,

29:44 All documents have been scanned and are easily accessed from a home computer. What are you talking about going hither and there to find truth? I wish that were so. There were an awful lot of documents that haven't been scanned and aren't available, especially at the archives. It would make make life a lot simpler. There are some special archives where you can get that done. In 1970, when I worked for Bob briefly at McDonnell had a search done of government contract reports using the keyword one keyword, magneto aerodynamics. 900 documents were found, of which 90% were classified. I suspect some were for black projects and maybe even dealing with plasmas and UFOs, which is an area I'm particularly intrigued with. I've spent a great deal of effort on the question of legitimacy of the Majestic 12 documents

30:46 and reported my findings in my book Top in an update chapter in my book Flying Saucers and Science and my final report on Operation Majestic 12. I believe I have dealt with all the anti-arguments about the Eisenhower briefing document the Truman Forrestal memo, the Cutler-Twining memo. All three stand up to the attacks. Uh for example, this includes proving that Dr. Donald Menzel, supposedly a did loads of very classified work though unknown to the outside world. In a letter to John F. Kennedy which I found at the Harvard archives there's Dr. Menzel telling John Kennedy that he had a longer continuous association with the National Security Agency and its Navy predecessor for more than 30 years as of 1960 than anybody else in the country. When we are properly cleared to each other, I can tell you more. And yet there is no indication in two

31:47 issues of Sky and Telescope magazine dedicated to Dr. Menzel in which his post-World War II intense involvement with all kinds of classified activities was even One was on the time of his death, one was 100th anniversary of his birth. But nobody knew about this stuff until I, to my shock found this out. I showed one of the arguments was made by Philip Klass who was a Aviation Week and Space Technology reporter right in this town and the go-to man for somebody looking for a debunker. And he's said everything was baloney. He claimed that the proof that those documents are fault was clear. One of the documents used a pica And he had nine documents from National Security Council that were in elite type. Therefore, the documents were fraudulent. Now, he made it worth

32:49 my while to prove him wrong. He offered me $100 each for every genuine NSC document meeting all kinds of specifications done in the same size and style type up to a limit of 10, unfortunately. Or I'd have been a wealthy man. He'd never been to the Eisenhower I've spent a lot of time there. I was going soon. He gave me 60 days. I went, I found 14, I copied them, I sent him a and an invoice for $1,000, the limit. He paid me. Told everybody about challenging me, nobody about paying me. he also got very upset when I showed a copy of his check in one of the books that I wrote. Was that 1 minute that I saw there? Well, okay. Uh his check is in one of my books. A copy of his check is in one of my Uh I want to say that archivists can be

33:50 helpful, but there have been a lot of phony arguments and a lot of people who don't do their homework. Every top secret document has to have a top secret control number. I was told that several It's a lie. I got two archivists saying, "We got loads of top secret documents without top secret control numbers." Uh incidentally, with regard to class, a lot of his papers are up in Philadelphia at the American Philosophical Society Library. There's no Friedman file. We corresponded for 20 years. I don't think he wanted anybody to know that he paid me. That's why he was so mad that I published a copy of his there are also times, just one last a perfectly legitimate document might have a false claim in it. For example, General Twining wrote a to a good-sized group of people

34:52 in which he expressed the desire, you know, wouldn't it be great if we had pieces of a saucer. And people have interpreted this as saying there weren't any such pieces. Well, a lot of the people who are getting this memo didn't have a need to know for this stuff. So, he had to lie. That's the way it goes. So, thank you. It's a fascinating area. Thank you very much. We'll go to our next witness. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um I have no I I have no written testimony. If you have a written testimony there, it's actually for tomorrow. I just wanted to be added to this panel today to talk about one particular document. Uh I have a series of documents that's got memorandum on the top. I'll just be highlighting little bits and pieces of that, but I do have a statement that I want to read. I have testified in front of this committee a number of times. And I would like to just say that it has

35:52 been an honor to testify in front of this committee. Uh we in the UFO community have uh complained for years that we have an important issue and that nobody has listened to us. Unlike the uninformed newspaper articles that continue to be published this morning, this committee has done its research to prepare for our testimony. You have listened carefully to our testimony, and most importantly, you have treated us with respect. The latest Gallup poll uh places the approval rating at Congress at 15%. I am quite sure that in this room your approval rating is much higher than Lastly, I'd like to say that you have restored my faith in the fact that Congress, if they were to act like you on the panel have acted, would be an effective tool in a modern Now, as to my testimony, uh I just want to go through these documents and the the document I'm going to talk about is, if it's not the most important document in Ufology, it's one of the most

36:53 important documents. And I want to just highlight some some situations around that document. Uh in the the document you should be looking Well, first we should look at um the Rockefeller video uh the Rockefeller slide. Can we put that up on the screen? based on uh Senator Gravel's uh statement yesterday that we should be a little more sort of aggressive in what we do, I've sort of taken his advice. These are the the famous Rockefeller initiative documents, the thousand pages of documents that were released to me by the Clinton Library, and uh they have gone missing. The Clintons say they don't have them. National Archives has says they don't have them. I filed an appeal, they've denied the appeal, and so what I've done, based on what Mr. Gravel said yesterday, I intend to send them back to the Clinton Library, and it's going to be kind of embarrassing that they're going to get it from a foreign citizen, but we'll see what they do, whether they put this back in the presidential record. These are a thousand pages of documents the Clintons

37:54 say they no longer have. Now, as to the document the document the the document I'm going to talk quickly about is the top secret memo. It's a 1950 document from Canada, but I want to sort of go around the documents that that uh that talk about why why this is so important. If you took a look at the top document called memorandum there, you will see uh to give you some background, in Canada there was four different organizations that controlled UFO files. There was the Department of Transport, there was the National Research Council, there was the RCMP, and there was the Department of Defense. The Canadians, regardless of what anybody wants to say, are playing the same game as the Americans. In the 1960s, late 1960s, they shut down their UFO program, and they released all the sighting files, which is what all the governments are doing. They're just releasing their sighting files. But, the actual discussion behind the sighting files, as to what does the president say, what does the head of the military think about this, what does the Prime Minister of Canada think about this,

38:55 that is all the stuff behind. That is the stuff that you will not see. People will release the sighting files, but they really don't mean anything. So, in this memorandum, which is uh uh the document, uh you've got it up there. I'll I'll read just the one paragraph. It says, um and what what has happened here is all the documents in Canada, the sighting file material, has been moved in the 1960s to the National Research Council, because nobody wants the documents, nobody knows what to do with them. So, National Research Council gets stuck with these documents. And this is a uh a memo from from somebody in the Department of Defense talking about the fact that Project Magnet document is in these files that have come to you. And he gives the warnings. He says, um you should should note here that uh the discussions behind Project Magnet are part of this uh part of this file. And then he says, "At no time should this be made available to the public." If you read the very last line, talking about the stuff, the the discussions behind the

39:56 Project Magnet files, he says, uh "A copy of the Project Magnet file is attached to this. The original is attached, and should not be destroyed until such time as the UFO subject has cooled off." So, the intention was that the Project Magnet, the the material behind Project Magnet, the discussions as to what was going on, would be destroyed. Thanks to Stanton Friedman, who's sitting beside me, uh a lot of that material uh did come out in the late 1970s. Uh so, I want to to reference you to what they're trying to cover up, what they wanted destroyed. If you look at um Magnet Report number one, which we found in the files of the guy who was who ran the Canadian government program, you will see Project Magnet Report. I'll refer to you to page two. At the top of page two, it says, "This is an official report that sat on the Prime Minister's desk in Canada for 3 months, according to the wife of the guy who wrote it. It appears then that we are faced with a substantial probability of the real existence of

40:56 extraterrestrial vehicles, regardless of whether or not they fit into our scheme of things." That was the official conclusion by the Canadian government report in 1952, which went to the Prime Let's go to uh top secret document number one. This is the famous top secret memo that Stanton Friedman helped uh force out in 1978. It was written in 1950, but it did not get declassified till 1978. It's a top secret document. The Canadian government does not deny this document. It agrees that this is a legitimate document. It was stamped top secret. It was written by Wilbert B. Smith. The background to it was the Canadians in 1950 had decided they were going to go to the Americans. They were going to find out what the Americans knew about the flying saucer program. They went down and through the military attaché at the Canadian Embassy, and through the Canadian Embassy, they asked questions of the Americans, "Is this for real? What's going on?" And here is the conclusion that went back to the Canadian government.

41:56 "The subject is is the most highly classified subject in the United States, rated higher than the hydrogen bomb. Flying saucers exist. Their modus operandi is unknown, but there's a small group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush, who was the science advisor to Roosevelt, that he's in charge of the program, and the fourth thing was the entire matter is considered to be of tremendous significance. And then the fourth the fifth point that he mentions, and this goes to Mr. Bartlett's question about how did they get here from 37 light-years away? He said, "I was further informed that mental phenomena may be associated with the flying saucers, and that the Americans aren't doing very well because they've asked that if we're doing anything in Canada, they're willing to exchange credentials and talk to us about it." That's the top secret memo. Flying saucers exist. What's happened in the last 50 years has been a circus. Uh can we go to um the next document, which would be embassy document number four? This is some of the documentation that

42:57 was destroyed by the Canadian uh government. It was recovered because Wilbert Smith had it in his personal files, and I'll just read to you um here. This is uh the third uh secretary at the Canadian embassy writing to Wilbert Smith back in Canada. He said, uh we are of course uh have our eyes and ears open, and if anything significant should happen, you'll hear it through the the right slant channel. These are the military liaison people. Um at the instructions of the ambassador in the embassy, apart from Wright and myself, nobody is to discuss the matter with anybody. So, the Canadians have been told, and on the second page of that, which is uh embassy number four, basically it says uh the ambassador and I would be particularly interested in any indication that you may have heard of the possibility of an official statement. The Canadians in 1950 were sitting, they had heard that the Americans had a crashed flying saucer, they'd been told that this was for sure

43:58 real, and they were sitting there waiting for the Americans to make a statement. So, I'll just leave it at that, and if there's any questions, we'll go from there. Thank you very Dr. Wood, I'm particularly interested in PhDs in physics from places like Cornell. Uh you're obviously a very intelligent person and someone not easily fooled. there's no doubt in your mind that the documents that you've uh helped with uh with Mr. Friedman There's just no question and you've I think written a very credible statement here that uh these are authentic. I do. I do. Okay. Okay. And as a very capable person, when the top page of the document

44:59 file and the 28 pages you say were involved in this Well, and again, we're talking about I think is that I what I'm understanding is that when what you authentic authenticated is the Majestic 12 what's been known as the Majestic 12 stuff which resulted in this particular Yeah, my If you could just clarify that for me if I've got that wrong. Okay. My son's website www.majesticdocuments.com has documents in it. This is one of the 64. Oh, I see. Okay. I basically it it is a replication of the manual that was photographed on a 35 mm film. So, from those photographs, I was able to recreate Okay. something that would seem to be exactly what it would would have been in 1954. I understand. When the war office back in 19 uh 50 whatever

46:00 Put with war office training manual is entitled, quote, extraterrestrial entities and technology recovery and disposal. That's what it says. Right here. And then you've got and we've seen, yeah, In your opinion, as a as clearly as smart man. That's all I have to say to that. Does that mean the United States government at that time thought there was a high that there were there could be extraterrestrial involvement in the UFO phenomena that had been clearly observed up to that point. We've got evidence of 36 and and earlier and and and others and materials and so forth that that were recovered in inner something unidentified, unexplained.

47:01 Among the Let me finish my question if I could, Dr. Wood. Does Is that proof that the government at that time thought there was a high probability of life involved or is that an indication that the government thought it was an absolute reality that extraterrestrial was involved because wouldn't the government thinking that perhaps this is the best have to prepare documents to help researchers categorize not necessarily things they had found specifically, but that had been cited that other people had found that had been reported to them. I'm just trying to understand the context of Majestic 12. And and I'm asking Dr. Wood, I'm going to get to you in a moment, as well. I can see you were eager to say something. Go ahead. Well, I think the important point is that of of the documents that I have, three three of them basically cite the cra- crashes associated with the so-called Battle of LA in in February

48:03 1942 where one was recovered in the San Bernardino Mountains and one was salvaged by the Navy at sea. In addition to that, there was a crash and And they were wondering about the probability, weren't they, of whether it was AT not the reality that they had already come to that conclusion or Well well, my my judgment is that they recovered these craft and they immediately they decided that it was very important because we were all essentially in the war with with Nazi Germany and Japan to keep this Sure. And and so and of course that would imply that they thought that maybe this was a Nazi vehicle that may have been The document And clearly at that time there was a lot of respect for German and Russian and engineering on things. There there there's a They couldn't they you know, they weren't exactly the same as what we had developed in the United States. There's double There's a double top secret memos signed by FDR that alludes to non-terrestrial

49:05 uh non-terrestrial objects. And so they clearly the language they were using in the early 40s before 1945 was And so clearly the government felt It could even be that they felt it was the best explanation. But but do they have in these documents is there something that absolutely is is not just a report of but an actual thing that they're saying is of extraterrestrial origin. That's what I'm asking. Well, they initiated a study called the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit that was a had a classified classification of top secret. So in in my judgment, these uh early early crashes were what triggered a process that is described in the 1954 document as to how we would be able to go and crashed or shot down flying saucers and be able to study them. We have probably

50:07 at least a hundred different crash retrievals over the world. Sure. In In other words, Dr. Wood, one of the possible explanations and I'm I'm on I'm not going I'm not leading anybody anywhere here. I'm trying to understand it as best I can. And and I don't care where this leads. I want to know the That's what a getting rid of a truth embargo is all about. But anyway, what I'm asking is wouldn't it be prudent as what I think is apparent in some of the Canadian memos that I'm going to ask Mr. Cameron about, that a government thinking that it might be the best explanation is going to set in procedures and even make descriptions, not necessarily because they have the the government people that writing these memos had witnessed the craft that had the legs this, but they'd received reports of crafts like this and so they were preparing and as people they were much more eager, it seems to me in those days, to go out and try to find evidence of what they

51:07 thought might be the best explanation. Now, is that I'm going to go to Mr. Cameron and say, is that consistent with with this document that you And believe me, I want to commend everybody here that's been getting that's been instrumental in getting some of these documents cuz we wouldn't have had these documents without the four of you all sitting here in front of us today. And that's a great great thing. And in Canada, they're saying here in one of the memos you brought forth that uh that many sightings undoubtedly are due unusual views of common objects or phenomena and not quite normal, but there are many sightings which cannot be explained so easily. Now, at the same time, they also say, "It appears then that we are faced with a substantial of the real existence of extraterrestrial vehicles." Now, you know, as far as I'm concerned,

52:09 if I were a member of Congress, at which I was, if I if I were again, I would say to you that if I felt there was a substantial probability of the real existence of extraterrestrial vehicles based on reports that had come in, 86,000 in this country alone, 62 that had enough umph to be highlighted here this morning, witnesses, missile launch officers that saw things that that caused the whole government to restructure some of their weapon I would absolutely demand a hearing. But that still does not prove that they thought there were extraterrestrials and it does not prove from these documents that they were collecting materials that were in fact determined, at least by the government, as being extraterrestrial or extraterrestrial at the time. A high probability, I absolutely agree, these documents show that.

53:09 And that's hey, that's enough for me to want to investigate very seriously with very credible uh witnesses as you all are. And in the Congress of the United States, both the Senate and the House, I think it deserves that. But I think I just want to understand for sure if there's anything in the documents that you say is first source evidence of ET. I'm asking both of you that and then I'll Anything in the document that is. I'm talking about not just a you know, sighting, not just a report. that wouldn't be in the official material that I have presented to you in in private writings, he does say that, yes, in his private writings. Who says that? The guy who wrote the top secret memo, Wilbert B. Smith, who ran the Canadian government program from 1950 to 1954. But why in his public Are you saying that all the reason he described it as just a high probability in public is because Well, that's that's a preliminary report

54:11 that was given to the Prime Minister of Canada in 1952. they're going to keep it secret, he Pardon me? Remember, he thought they were going to keep it secret. It was only good detective work of you all where it's not been kept private. But I mean, why wouldn't he express his honest-to-goodness opinion publicly if he thought it was It was very clear It was very clear from this terrible letter they were going to keep it private. Well, because the the document the document is stamped top secret. It was all classified. And it was classified This document was forced out by Stanton Friedman in 1978. I mean, I commanded him before that. And so there's a lot of stuff I'll talk about tomorrow behind the scenes of stuff that he was doing and the Canadians were doing that showed that they knew this was extraterrestrial. But in the document, he does say the Americans say flying saucers exist. It's It's simple. Flying saucers exist. He went down there. I can get into Tomorrow I'll get into what he learned in the States and who was telling him what. Okay, but in the documents you have here in front of us, it doesn't Or it doesn't I'm not trying to get into any Yeah. No, it does say flying saucers exist. That's what they were told. Yeah. It's up. Thank you very much for your answers. I wish I could get that.

55:13 I think you have something important to say and I hope we'll get it eventually. Mr. And we'll come back to it. Uh uh Houlahan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. again, anyone that would like to answer any of these questions would be great. have we Do we have, other than what happened in in um Utah? Do we have or New Mexico, excuse me. Do we have any other whatever you want to call them. Do we have any of those that were crashed, shot down that we can examine? You mean publicly? Publicly. It's all classified. That's the whole point of this thing, that the evidence that's available the hard, you know, knock on the the wheels the stuff is all classified. That's the whole point of this thing.

56:14 Is that we don't have access. And if you look, there's a plenty of classified documents and Bob showed a good one. We don't get access to that. I don't have a need to know for any of that stuff. People say, "What was the analysis of the material at Roswell?" I'm not on any list for sending classified information about Roswell or Aztec or any of the other crashes. So, when you say, "Do we have?" If you mean the public, no, we do not. Are there bodies within governments, whether Canadian or American or Russian or English or whatever, that have that information? It's pretty clear that they Went somewhere. We'll be talking about Roswell tomorrow. And so, we'll get into that. And one this is not about a probability, sir. This is the government wanted the collection teams, which had names and numbers to be how they would go out to retrieve craft, how they would go out and

57:16 retrieve bodies, dead and alive. The whole procedure of how to deal with it was written and published in this 1954. And how to cover it up. And how to cover it up. And if I could add, my son has written a book called Magic Eyes Only, which describes 74 different crash retrieval cases with an authenticity index for each one to give you the confidence that you should have. And some of them are very highly confident, some of them are questionable, but we're talking about dozens of crashes that have been retrieved, all of which are classified. And the reports are merely from other people who have said described the process of retrieving them. Can I Can I add a Yes. What Wilbert Smith said, the Canadian he states quite openly in his writings that he handled a piece that was shot off a flying saucer in 1952 over Washington by the Navy. He maintained that. Near the end of his life he was dying of cancer, he knew people were

58:17 trying to get him to talk. We have a letter I haven't I didn't I don't have it for publication. I I have it where he was asked about the the crash material. And he said the US has tons of it. And they also have a lot of film. And and then he puts in capital, it is in official not US Air Force hands. So he was hinting to people that this is for real. His son testified he will testify, he's talked to me, he's talked to numerous people, that his father told him shortly before his death that he did see a flying saucer and the bodies outside of Washington DC. And one of his associates also saw it. I talked to his top metallurgist guy cuz a lot of this material was going to Canada for analysis. I talked to his metallurgist and I said how much material did you and Wilbert handle? He said tons of it. Again, thank you. has this I mean we've talked about this uh unidentified flying objects in Is this a worldwide phenomena or is it

59:19 Yes. Okay, thank you. Um and what do other countries do with the information they get? They usually pass it on to the United There was a crash in Varginha, Brazil, which the word is that Americans took the wreckage and the bodies. Yeah, the Secretary of State was there. Warren Christopher went there and the deal supposedly was that they were going to put a Brazilian on the space shuttle and that's happened shortly after they negotiated supposedly for the bodies and the craft. carrot and stick What Why do they want Why do we want to keep quiet about this? What I'll give you six quick reasons. All right. You want to figure out how by we, you know, everybody. Uh want to figure out how they work to make wonderful weapons delivery and defense systems. You got wreckage, you set up your secret project. Rule number one for security, you cannot tell your friends without telling your enemies. They read the newspapers, too. Second problem, what if the other guy

1:00:20 figures out how they work from his wreckage before you do? You don't want him to know you know he knows. Weapon, counter weapon, counter counter weapon. Been playing this game a long time. The third problem is what if an announcement were to be made? You pick the people trusted all over the planet. As I mentioned yesterday, yeah, you know, the queen and the pope saying that indeed some UFOs are alien spacecraft. What would happen? Are we ready to deal with the increase in mental hospital admissions, uh all kinds of things that would go on? Uh church attendance would go up, I presume. The stock market would go down. Anything that rocks the boat in the stock market goes down. Are we ready to deal with those? And I think one thing that would happen is that the younger generation would push for the very sensible notion of "Hey, we're all earthlings. What are you talking? Canadians, Americans, Greeks, You know of any government that wants that? I don't. United States government doesn't want people to think of themselves as planetarians, if you

1:01:23 Nationalism's the only game in town that which the world operates at the moment. Fourth, there are the distinct religious problems with people saying there is nobody out there. It's the work of the devil. I've been told this by certain religious people. Uh, these things can't be real and there would be great distress if an announcement were to be made. Uh, fifth, people say if they're coming here and we're not going there, they're more advanced than we are. That means pretty soon we'll get rid of oil. There goes that industry. We'll have better ground and air transportation. There goes those some people would say maybe that's not a bad idea, but computers like a little faster airplane, but go ahead. Yeah. Uh, and finally I have heard seven stories American airplane, no, airplanes. One of them was Russian. Uh, being destroyed by

1:02:25 chasing those aircraft. Uh, and the United States government does not want to release that. It's a long habit. Bad things happen to people you don't want the public to We shot down some Russian airplanes. No word in the newspapers about them approaching the the coasts, if you will. It's been done. if we're going to disclose, we need to have a procedure established. Okay, where do we go from here? I think one thing would be to announce that there're going to be international conferences. Amen. International dealing with the political, religious, technological, et cetera implications here. It's a whole new world. Everything changes. It's not just UFO buffs that have things changing. Thank you. Thank you, Congress. You're good. Congresswoman uh Kilpatrick, please. Thank you very much.

1:03:27 I got one for you when I come back. Doctor, would you please define non-terrestrial for me, please? Non-terrestrial. Well, I think the word the word non-terrestrial was selected in order to avoid having to say they were extraterrestrial because other possibilities would have been to come from the ocean or from beneath the surface of the earth. They just wanted to say they didn't know where they came from. Also, they could have come from some other place in time. There have been serious people who who are well, as as as was said earlier, mental processes may be important in in this subject. And included in those mental processes are reports where things are are strange in time. In fact, I think I heard yesterday somebody said this watch was was was off 25 minutes. 45 minutes. So, uh I I I think they basically were being

1:04:27 more careful than saying extraterrestrial. When they said non-terrestrial, they meant it could have come from beneath the earth or could have come from some place in time. And and I think we still have that possibility that in fact the the the travel procedures to go from other stars to here may include some time travel. Is there another a terrestrial, non, and extra? Is there another in between or is that Is there that the scientists use or Well, non-terrestrial just means not not not extra not not here on earth with our present society. Extraterrestrial means clearly from from other stars. So, um I think so non-terrestrial everything else that's not extraterrestrial. That's the first one. Do you all agree the other three agree with that kind of Remember that that was prepared before we'd been in space. But this is 2013. I You know. Well, I know that, but I'm the report? Yeah. 54 and I'm going to

1:05:28 pull them up as soon as I get up. Yeah. 54 is before and and the British astronomer royal in 1956 said space travel is utter bilge. Right. Right. Right. And and we know that to be true today, really. Right? I mean it's it's it's it's whatever you can't define, really, is what I'm kind of learning. Now, space travel is real. Absolutely real. Planets and universes and extraterrestrials, too, it sounds like. People being in space Yeah. was something that was not accepted by the astronomical community back when that was written. Okay, but today we know that's not true because we and other Okay. That's good. Thank you, doctor. Appreciate that. Doctor was trying to understand it my own self. international conference I'm glad you said it. That's kind of I didn't say it like that. It needs to be an international answer to this. And and and Mr. Freeman, you were saying that all the other countries give their stuff to the US. Well, give maybe they think

1:06:28 they're better their their materials, their maybe not the aircraft that they hijacked or got. I'm coming there next because I wrote down aliens got took over you said the aircraft. I don't know if it's US aircraft, if aliens taking over any of our aircrafts. Our airplanes chasing All right. We chase them. Do they chase If they chase us, we don't seem to be able to get rid of them. They chase us. And then when we go to chase them You can't You can't. They're too fast. they're too quiet. They move too It took a it would be important for them to find out how quickly we can fly so they gradually They know already. Well, it took a while at the beginning. Uh how quickly we can fly, how maneuverable we are. It's very important in any military situation that you know the capabilities of your

1:07:30 enemies. People are If they're attacking you, they're your enemies. Do we know We We know that they exceed ours, but the ultimate is I'm sure we don't know. All right. And that's scary. That's why I want the international Yeah. So, that's why I want the international conference. I'm with you. That's why I want you all who are scientists in this for 30, 50, 60 years to pull something together. I mean, and one thing about Congress, we're good in three or four areas. Mine's defense and transportation. Somebody else's health and, you know, but the scientist scientists, don't let them Something said at this table either today or this morning, I think. Scientists is what everything is based on. I mean, this kind of matter, this kind of subjects. We do it in our the big science committee and several these members served on it. Can I add something to that? Absolutely. Uh base based on what I've seen, the United States of America would block any such move. There already is an example, the United Nations under Eric Gairy from Grenada tried to get a UN uh group to look at UFOs, and the evidence

1:08:32 is pretty substantial that the Americans did everything they could to stonewall that to the point And in that very discussion, Grenada was able to get two resolutions, which I still think are on the books in the UN, to do something. In the meantime, he There was a coup and he was dethroned. Yeah. But but basically the the the end of the story was it never got in. The Americans were trying to block it, and that's the thing is that Are the Americans ready to give up their power to a United Nations type group that's going to tell you what to do? You know, that's a Well, then don't even answer that. And I don't put us on the record. I mean, we know by what's happening in the world that that's not going to happen unless somewhere else internationally and things happen that moves to that. My whole thing as a is I want my grandchildren to have a world beyond the next 20, 30, 40, 50 I'm a great grandfather. I agree with Sorry? Sorry, sorry. I'm a great grandfather. I agree with Right, right, right. So, it behooves all of the so-called humans and that's that's us who can come in here, wash our face, and think who are not nearly as intelligent as the

1:09:33 people we don't know about or the things or the beings or the presences. We got some work to do. But, I think you have to remember that and I think people sort of look at it like good, evil. I still think that the people who are running the cover-up still want the best for their children and grandchildren. I just think they have a different opinion of of what what to do. I think everyone wants the best for their children and grandchildren and I and I wasn't separating that out. I think some want to keep it right here and not share the wealth. I think some are satisfied with the underclass and the top class. Cuz the the the idea I have is it's like we're in we're in charge here. We know what to do. The rest of you just shut up and pay your taxes. But, see, that's the arrogant and it's probably maybe true. I think the way the situation is. true, but that doesn't move us to plan B. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. I think the whole thing that I'm feeling in the room and I love the people who follow this and have for many years cuz you have the scientific data. But, we're going to have to get together on the how-to. Because you got to meet people in not a combative way. It's got to be something that brings them in instead of shuts

1:10:34 them out. And I think you go around the power structure to do that with the power structure included. And then I I I don't want to give up because I think it's too critical. The expert testimony and all the information you've given me for 30 for 3 days now is my mind is blown up. You know, somebody wants to ask me a question. I say, "I'm speaking on Friday when I get most of it and kind of sort it out." I don't have I don't know what to say right now. But, it to to move it from a discussion like this that we're having to reality where people and countries get involved and begin to address it on scientific as well as other kind of ways, the others will come. They will. And then we take it out of that mystery spike head yellow people kind of thing cuz it's way bigger than that. So again, thank you for your what you do. We still have a lot of work to do. Thank you. Let me turn to the congressman on on my left. Thank you very much. Thank you all very much for your for your testimony.

1:11:34 How many uh are publicly of this type whose authenticity might be determined? How many are Of the quality we have here where high-ranking officials are admitting that there is something here that we ought to be looking at it. How many of those kinds of documents are available? Very few. Very few? That that's what they're protecting. They're protecting the internal correspondence. But there's been some of them here. I'm reading some of them here. Yeah, but that that's from the guy's personal files and one that leaked out that they should have destroyed that they didn't destroyed. Stanton forced it out. They released it and I think they released it by accident. That top secret memo I think was supposed to have been destroyed. You That's why I'm saying you will not find the internal correspondence. What is the president saying about this? What is the joint chiefs of staff doing? That kind of stuff is the stuff they're protecting. That's the stuff they're going to go to the grave fighting for to

1:12:34 keep out of the public. They will give you the sighting files cuz who cares? Someone saw something in the sky. That doesn't threaten them. But the this correspondence as to what are they doing about it and what does the president and the top people who are in charge, what are they doing about it? That's the kind of stuff that they don't want you to to know about and that's what they refer to in their the internal correspondence, which at no time should be made available to the public and should be destroyed. And one of the most important leaks is the SAM 101 document because uh it has held up over time, but remember the origin of it was on 35 mm negative film. It was a leak. That's That's how we got this. I would say that all of the top secret documents have resulted from leaks from personal Well, with one exception. The NSA has released 156 top secret Umbra UFO documents. Solid black. The only trouble is that it's all white it out.

1:13:35 They didn't really release anything. They've been redacted, huh? Redacted is a kind way to put it. Yeah, they've been redacted. CIA has released dozens of top secret Umbra UFO documents by their definition. And you can read five or six words per page, sometimes 12. Fast reading. So, what I And these are all old stuff. That's all pre-1980. And yet there are people saying there's been no cover-up. I have people tell me, "Stan, the NSA is given us what they have." I say, "Can you read what's underneath the white Well, no, but one sentence per page is not enough. The documents on my son's website have 27 documents before 1948. 15 before 1960. Uh and 11 from 1968, I think, and and 11 more up to 2000. So, it it's a lot of them are very old.

1:14:37 Are there any recent ones? Uh latest one I have is uh 2001. 2001? Yeah, and it it was I've been exploring how we might get this issue out of the shadows of the lunatic fringe. And it occurred to me that one way might be to you know, you can there's a lot of science and so forth involved with these reports of flying saucers. And a lot of ways to and the Air Force found ways to discredit almost 12,000 of They allowed that only 701 they couldn't they couldn't account for. But when you come to the authenticity of documents, that's something almost everybody can relate to. It's either real or it's not real. And if there are real documents where people at high levels suggested that there might be

1:15:39 non-terrestrial, extraterrestrial, whatever it is, uh activities associated with this. If that got into the public, I would think that that would be a wedge. Gee, these people thought there was something there. What were they looking at that they thought there was something there? If you were in a court and the question the authenticity of a document came up and you were looking for a source that would be acceptable both to the prosecution and the defense, an honest broker that both sides would agree with, who would that be? The The question is who would Well, let let me You mean what ask this question the way you would ask it in a hearing in the in the I know some of these things you can't do immediately, so I'd ask you to provide for the record. That's a little different here, but if you would think about what this would

1:16:40 be, I'd be very interested in knowing who that honest broker would be that both the the defense and the prosecution would have would agree was was was an expert that whose judgment could be could be relied on. Then the next question one. One answer I can give you is the procedure that I used was to go to an expert whose name was James Black with respect to typewriter fonts. Yep, okay, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Yeah, and then there But some organization like the like the FBI crime lab, but there must be some private entity out there that does this kind of thing. hired them to study some of the other documents to determine the age of the ink. Yep, yep, well, lots of things you could look at. Oh, if you have the original document, you know, the chemistry of the paper. There are a lot of things you can look at to determine three documents with original ink. Okay, the next thing, if there is if there are documents whose authenticity would convince people that gee, we really need to look at what they were looking at to say that then what would be and again, think

1:17:42 about this and get back to us. What would be a vehicle that would be both agreeable and acceptable to the general public for doing this? So, you know, we're looking for an organization, some entity that is an honest broker who everybody would agree gee, you can count on their credibility in authenticating these documents. And then we need some entity to get this in the public domain. Who has the courage to do it? Who has the credibility to be acceptable to the general public? If we can do this, maybe we can get this out of the shadows as I say of the lunatic fringe, which is where it is now. You can see that from the press things. That's what people think about That's what the press thinks about it. Yeah. That's something different from what the people think about it. Yeah, I don't know what what are what do you polls show? I haven't seen any polls on this. There are more believers than

1:18:43 non-believers. Oh, really? Yes. Okay. By the way, 15% um favorable rating for Congress is pretty high. It It's more like 9% and I'm looking for those 9%. Thank you for that challenging question. Spoken with true humility. Well, I've got 2 minutes my So, I can ask a question. Um but I want to associate myself with the remarks of uh Congresswoman Woolsey. And I know that Congressman uh Hooley and I had a private discussion on the same subject and and the Congressman here has just touched upon it. What is the next step? uh the next step is not going to be Congress. You're not uh I I just do not think that's going to happen, there's an idea uh thought that came up one the other day and it compliments with what I think uh Mr. Cameron was bringing up. And that is the next step,

1:19:44 and this is a great first step, make no mistake about it. I'm not trying to minimize the progress that we're making But, an international conference uh not made up of uh the lunatic lunatic fringe of opponents or the lunatic fringe of proponents, but an international conference, hopefully under the auspices of the United Nations, uh so it's global in its character. And And so, I would hope that the lobbying would take place within the United States with or without the United States' involvement. You could get it through the General Assembly. Now, clearly you won't get it through the Security Council because we control the Security Council, and that's a hoax. But, you could go to the General Assembly, uh and you could try to get in since there is such a apparently a uh uh body within South America that has some interest in this, uh, you could get it passed through the General Assembly creating a commission.

1:20:45 Uh, and the beginning work of the commission would be to have an international conference. So, it would be a it'd be a conference, not a hearing like this, but it truly would be a conference with an agenda to provide papers forward to have the And and that and and that would and then of course to have the economic wherewithal to video stream it in all the pertinent languages, which is not automatic for the United Nations. I think that that would be the next step because uh, we're we're frozen and of course this is my own thinking and I don't want to say that the others are associated with these remarks. I I have lost the faith in representative government. I I truly think we're in gridlock, it doesn't work and so we need to make a change. What that change will be Uh, you can only you can only make changes with power. You have to have power to make a change. We don't have

1:21:47 the power here. We have the power so that gets to the media and so that's the step forward. Now, we hope that those who have funded this will think in terms of funding an effort to get the UN to get involved and to fund either privately or publicly an international conference. And and and so that where will that take us? That will take us to a further realization that the answer's with the people. Well, it's there's only two venues for change or or the exercise of power. One is is the government where in the problem lies or the people. The government won't, but the people are not equipped to do that under our present structure of human governance. So, let me leave it at that and say that we will have an hour, a little less than an hour for lunch. So, and uh we will be back here at

1:22:47 And promptly at 1:45 we'll begin and we look forward to because this afternoon I think we're dealing with Roswell. And that of course commands a lot of Thank you all.