“This is UFO disclosure, as far as it can go”: James Lacatski on Future Visions (WEAPONIZED, April 2026)

0:00 this is weaponized i'm george knapp here in las vegas joined by my friend and colleague jeremy corbell jeremy how's it going pretty good man how you doing good you've been on the road a little bit huh yeah i tried to get off the road but um we got some big things coming up this uh this year we do including this particular episode so you know as as we know all too well the the ufo public constantly demands a full disclosure we want to know everything we want to know now what does the government know about ufos we won't settle for anything less where's the bodies where's the craft and there are some members of congress that say they want the same thing and you know expectations are that sort of disclosure is nigh uh president trump has said he's going to release the files my personal expectations are pretty low as usual you're the optimist of the group you know the biggest stash of unreleased files as far

1:01 as we know is somewhere in the bowels of the dia the defense intelligence agency information compiled from a program known as osap under dia the man who created and designed and directed that program the largest known ufo investigation ever funded by the u.s government is james lakaski and it's now been eight years since i first met him and got a download from him about osap it's now 16 years since that effort ended and other than some preliminary reports the derds had been made public by me and some other people not one page of the tens of thousands of pages created by the osap investigation not one page has been made public if you ask dia they say they can't find them you can file all the foyer requests you want they've utterly failed so the only things we know about osap what it investigated what it found have come from jim lakatsky and colin kelleher in a series of books and lakatsky sifted through the official files he wrote about them along

2:01 with dr kelleher and me with some minor uh contributions and um you know the fourth and final book about alsap is now out it's called future visions by dr lakatsky took a long time for him to get permission from various government agencies through the dobser process but he's revealed as much as he's been allowed to reveal the work product of this largest ufo program in history and it'll never be enough i think for the public for some of the ufo public but as we know from interacting with him on this program um it's likely it could be the closest we ever get to actual disclosure what the government knows at least in the osap program and then you know jeremy as as you know he doesn't grant many interview requests this will be our third bite of the apple uh but i think no one other than perhaps connor kelleher knows as much about that program that jim lakatsky and he's sharing with the public the most information that can be released uh he fought a lot of battles to get the

3:02 permission to do it uh you know people are always demanding actual data these books are packed with evidence and data effects on humans bizarre phenomena um you know there's never been a story quite like this and maybe never will be a program like this again so being able to speak with him and to read these books including this latest one it's like a glimpse behind the curtain you and he have had some very spirited conversations on this episode on these episodes right yes yeah so i mean look um he has bottom line dr lakatsky has done more for modern day disclosure than any other human being that i know of he ran a ufo program and literally is printing books that are authorized to tell exactly what happened exactly how it is but people have to be readers they have to get in there and they have to read them he's taken a lot of heat for not directly answering questions so that's where we get into these spirited debates and i know you can't go further than

4:03 certain things and i'm not pressing for national security questions answers i'm not pressing for him to break his oath i want to see where that boundary is because it ends up being that the boundary is usually in a really interesting place it's what he's not allowed to say which is what we need to learn we can read his book but then we got to learn where is that boundary and why and so um again dr lakatsky has done more for modern day disclosure than i think anybody has if people read his books then certainly that is true um but there is a boundary and i respect that but i need to know where that is with him what is it he's not allowed to say because that's the question that we need to answer well we know one place where there's a boundary because we've explored it before so maybe third time's the charm so let's jump into it dr jim lakatsky it's great to have you back on weaponized can't thank you enough for your time i was reviewing the conversations that we've had on this program and the conversations that you and i have had over the years not uh

5:04 recorded and there's a there's a big gap in that and that is about you you know we really haven't got into you and i ask this question in the context of claims that have been made about our books your books and about the ufo topic in general that everyone involved in this at an official capacity everyone involved in osap atip uaptf are all part of a cult and you've been pushing your religion in order to influence congress and the pentagon and national policy so i want to ask about you what your degrees were in how you ended up at dia and what you did for dia before you jumped into this subject well uh as to the degrees they're all in nuclear engineering uh that enabled me to gain employment first at a utility and then at knoll's atomic power a doe facility in new york then i transitioned into basically a career of

6:07 threat analysis as a contractor for dia and then working at dia so most of my time has obviously been spent working at dia now this was a minor blurb in the first book skinwalkers at the pentagon and there was so much new stuff in there people probably didn't even see this point but this all started when i was working i distinctly remember working with this huge cathode ray tube monitor in my house brand new but still a huge machine and i'm looking at it and i said wait a minute there's a project a dia and a and an associated to my particular group uh uh alternate group i i didn't know they were they were working on such odd things and then skinwalker ranch came up literally and this was all unclassified

7:08 obviously and uh that initiated everything um basically i started communicating with those folks who in my opinion had a great job a lot of them just involved themselves with foreign travel to technical conferences well as a result of having all that knowledge they were working under contract for i believe it was the national academy of sciences for an unclassified program and somehow skinwalker ranch came up short i wrote a letter to uh with my managers multiple managers approval to request to visit skinwalker ranch i wanted to hear the real details what is really going on and that's what dia was interested in now the study group it didn't have time to do that so basically they just fell off the plate i had a couple

8:08 queries uh after they provided me with the correct addresses and phone numbers as to are you doing anything and of course by that time the answer became no and so everything was under undercover in a sense even from within my own group i just wanted to keep things controlled and you've seen that up to this day in the four books they're a controlled disclosure of the information that we wanted to put for with pentagon approval the the way it's been described to me by your colleague and friend jay stratton is you two guys were both at dia at the same time with different sort of specialties and interest areas and it kept these ufo cases and incidents over sensitive installations would pop up now and then and eventually you guys compared notes and and we know what the the rest of the history is is that sort of correct is how you remember it well it is in a very broad terms uh we had

9:12 uh he was part of what we call the air team he worked on air threats and he was i don't know if he was on assignment to dia from oh and i or if he was a dia uh employee at the time but we also had other members within those teams he was head of that group i was head of uh the missile threat enemy missile threat to the united states and we would see these things in fact in fact i even overheard a conversation one day of wow you know skinwalker ranch that is the wildest place i've ever heard of and little did they know you know what was going on a few cubicles away from them but we had to keep that under wraps it's not that the management didn't know what was going on it wasn't going sideways that's your greatest danger there your job is to look

10:14 for threats and assess threats and um and and at some point you thought well maybe this is a threat that's why it's worth looking into it's not your religion you're not part of ufo cult uh and none of us were i don't i don't understand where well a lot of things materialize on the internet and and and i have learned over the years there's no use in fighting back against them because they spread faster than you could ever keep up but the false information i mean one of the best was the battle between bigelow's guards with automatic weapons and and aliens with lasers that really caught traction and i said where did this come from but you know there's some humorous things in there too of course over the years you had no religious type beliefs about ufos aliens any of that going into this absolutely not in fact i was a complete nuts and bolts person i i

11:15 didn't see the relationship at first and then i saw the relationship that ufos were under the paranormal umbrella not vice versa or anything like that are totally dissociated that disturbs me when i read about people who don't believe in the connection because if if anything that's what we proved because nothing that we had heard about skinwalker ranch originally was false at all we yeah we couldn't repeat things but new cases as you know kept popping up all the time jeremy take it away yeah i just wanted to know kind of a little bit more about your background because you don't talk about it a lot but if you do some deep research you know you can kind of see that you you worked on like academically fusion research you know power and then utility in the utility sector kind of nuclear engineering is that correct yes i was uh uh in the utility

12:17 basically i was employed for doing startup monitoring and calculations of a new reactor it it had been operating and was and so what i was doing was refueling uh so but that only lasted six seven months because all that time i've talked let's look back in the old days of security clearance processing uh i was going they did it in steps i went after a confidential clearance i believe it was called an l clearance in dole and then uh once i was employed there i went after the q clearance and so in that regard i was working on naval reactors specifically shielding um of new attack submarines and then the opportunity my wife's a nuclear engineer too and the area we were living in schenectady did

13:17 not have a lot of jobs other than at knoll's atomic power plant well to open it up we started to apply extensively to washington she got a job as a nasa contractor and i found uh my my calling at the at a contractor that supported countermeasures and threat to the missile the missile defense system and that's where it took off yeah well i just think it's interesting when i go back and really find out where you were working and what you were doing it looked like from the university of tennessee nuclear engineering you did a master's thesis called plasma engineering analysis of a small tors torsation torsatron to reactor torsatron reactor and um when you were there also so you focused on the plasma physics and uh reactor engine engineering feasibility is what i read and then for a compact torsation design tied to oak ridges advanced torridal facility is

14:20 that correct well that's what they called it and yes that's all correct that's all everything that's out there is correct what i have not put out is details further on because i had the clearance at the time and i was doing classified work both with doe and dod and we can't talk about that at all because and i can tell you because it was a very advanced weapon system that i was working on very advanced wow and it is back then it was approved for research by dod multiple levels even to the highest but that's not buildable it was okay this is the bull with the technology of the time in the uh 80s and 90s right so it might be now but but you're i just want to make sure so you think about still classified it okay

15:20 it is buildable now it is buildable now so yeah so you were embedded in oak ridge's fusion program ecosystem kind of back in the in the early 80s yes yeah i think that's interesting you don't talk about that but you've kind of admitted now that part of that work was a theoretical uh physics aspect of a weapon system that is classified later on for okay uh doctor of engineering so i can't talk about that but at oak ridge everything was unclassified now did the torsatron concept ever come about it totally successfully well mine were theoretical calculations and the theory ultimately did not hold up it was for startup of a fusion reactor at extremely low power levels and not in other words you wouldn't have to put much money uh energy in in order to go to the uh ignition state so george i just

16:21 want to make sure um you know we kind of know who we're talking with so here's a man who's you know highly trained in in energy and uh turns out weaponry and in theoretical weaponry is kind of looking far ahead which leads us to kind of you know maybe a little bit more how i know him which is through his defense intelligence work yeah yeah and that's why i was i felt in you know quite comfortable handling all of the 38 special studies that we we did because i understood them all right and i i had to understand him i was the editor because we got 38 different styles coming in that we had to convert to one so there was a there was a there was an effort i had to read every line and make the corrections your latest book the last uh book that you intend to write about osap you've told me that taken together they in essence uh are the equivalent of disclosure am i overstating it no i believe

17:23 that that's uh what was our intent now as to having four books we thought one would suffice then it apparently had three more were needed and actually what you said as a putting a period on all of this is a final no i mentioned last time on your program the foundation of kona blue actually now your readers can do this i think both of you are doing it but if you go through all four of the books you can see the structure that we first put in the skinwalkers in the pentagon as a future program you can see that matches up almost exactly with the program that uh dhs and dod release on what kona blue was to be everything they released on kona blue was correct all i'm saying is it was incomplete a mission correct there you know in fact we

18:26 were very diligent in doing our threat analysis because we had access to the highest levels of threat intelligence but you had to release it at the secret level so everyone could use it we were very very specific and very clear that none of us were to just make up story out of thin air at the secret level it had to be supported by the higher level intelligence it was the truth and we did the same thing throughout osap uh when it was untrue that it was an unclassified program it was it was highly classified but everything you got out here and checked by the pentagon is unclassified but the story's in there i can't emphasize that anymore you're going through it bit by bit uh one thing that does upset me is when i see things on the internet

19:28 of people diligently going through the books diligently and they're going in the wrong direction and i can't say anything it's it's just the way it is they're filling in the the blanks with things that aren't true so george i you know the deepest move of this book as i'm reading through it it's not like one sensational claim uh dr lukatsky you're like building an institutional argument kind of that the u.s government ran a serious medically aware broad spectrum technically framed program that found the phenomenon to be stranger more interactive and more consequential than like the simple aircraft identification problem we used to call ufos is that fair to say that you know you followed the data into the taboo that's correct uh right from the beginning and we've if people thought that the uh request for proposal was obscure

20:29 what was meant to be but is there an untrue statement in there nope that's what we wanted uh and but we were very specific of going with the small contractors because we knew that with a small contractor like bigelow aerospace and an even smaller one bass their specialized study for this for this contract they could form it from the ground up we weren't inheriting a structure from a big aerospace space company we were sure they had the personnel but the thing is is were they going to go down the direction that dia wanted and the answer is of course no so everything is above board we did the proper contracting uh we we just did everything and we're all insistent on that and so senator reed and in a way etc uh and

21:30 they monitored the contract closely to see that dia did not veer off we weren't we were but that's why also we weren't telling everybody and their brother what we were doing we were keeping it low-key we were doing it in the correct place and we knew a lot was what was being produced it just we didn't plan to release it but i do remember the meeting in 2016 it was after i retired 2017 with senator reed out in las vegas where i came i just made the statement and you were there george i made the statement i'm gonna have to write a book now did i look at the stack over here and and i'm gonna see another book but this book may or may not be necessary it's i think it is because i'd like to see if the public comes to the same structure for kona blue

22:32 as as we did based upon an examination over a year of the data in these four books and who feel that certain portions of the work that are done in here either doesn't need to be done again or needs to be done by private organizations and not necessarily involve government or government funds but some areas need a lot more involvement by the government and and funding either uh from the government or external at this point it's it's it's it's i always think back it's like a a phd thesis a a dissertation could be like the wild west you just you go off on something new and innovative but you're moving ahead uh that's what needs to be done now with kona blue we need to move ahead we're not collecting information on lights in the

23:35 sky isn't going to cut it anymore and possibly even not close landings but you know we're going to have to involve ourselves in some real detail here and acquire that um medical cases were kind of limited right there but not totally uh we know there's an uh a medical impact in fact it's quite significant and i'm surprised we were able to release uh legally what we we put in pentagon so that the dia is aware the pentagon the the dia itself is very aware now because of your work that there are close contact to non-humans is that correct well from this study we are from this study we are you know not everything's in here but everything is in here it's just that how you read this is very important and it was done that way so we could release how do you read it there's some big stories

24:37 in here that no one is pursuing they're in the four books well how do you read it just like you're doing you read and you're and but you have to think too and you're doing it you're i have no problem but i'm not sure a lot do a lot think they can discuss these books on the on the internet and they're getting the gist of it all no way are you the four books again i mean it seems like it's the equivalent of disclosure given that these cases that are in there and the specifics and the incidents that happened were investigated by official governmentally authorized and finance program they're real they really did happen things did happen uh what you don't do in the books is sort of draw conclusions um hey these are aliens these these are et's these are not us um do you have conclusions from before or is it something that you purposely want us to arrive at on our own i did george you need to arrive at it on

25:41 our own because we can't give you a final answer say say if i told you and i'm correct just say i i told you that you know five percent of what you need to know and the government doesn't know much more there are people that think they they know more but they don't that this that this is wide open and that's why these books are structured that way as in you didn't like the term textbook it's been used on reviews of these books but uh guide books let's use that term guide books uh do you remember the old days when you could open buy at the at at the store maps you had to draw you know a paper map and heaven help if you took your eyes off the steering wheel but because you had to read the map but there is now the iphones weren't providing you anything uh the early days of the iphones providing you things i even knew people that you know went down

26:42 dead ends where there was a road or or they came to a water barrier now it's much better and people have forgotten they need a guidebook and that's what these are are do we have all the answers no but the younger folks will develop those answers and they'll they'll raise more questions too as they move forward it's that's a great field to be in it's great does anyone know does anyone you know know the answers to the big questions who are they is it non-human intelligence if so where they're from why they're here what their interest is in us do you know the answers to those and does anyone else in the government intelligence community know i don't and i don't know anyone that does and i would seriously question their claim that they do the fact you're not wasting your time doing research as you're doing it the both of you and anyone in the public who decides to if if it comes to it i

27:43 mean you can't say i'm going to work on flying saucers by the way no one has ever raised the question in these books where whatever happened you know this george whatever happened to the plans of the university program those went there was a firm plan there for for university programs and those talks went extensively they became like what happened with kona blue at dhs at least part of it uh they just died on the vine something got in the way and uh i don't know i guess it's if people were scared in the universities to form what would have been a paranormal research or and it would have been funded it wasn't an issue of money it was an issue of of committing to it and i think enrollment would have been through the roof if it was

28:44 just one or two courses okay everything that's in these books was thoroughly investigated all the cases all the incidents all the locations uh and you know you you've got some general themes throughout these are craft many of them they have effects physical physiological psychological on humans it's real it's happening it's happening all over the world and everything that you've written in these four books is approved in a sense you had to get permission to publish it including some pretty controversial elements of it so the reaction of course from the naysayers is this is drip drip drip um you know it's it's government propaganda it's preparing us for a false flag um are you happy now that the four books are done with with what you've been able to share and are you frustrated at all by things that you were not able to share well no i'm hopeful that i'm going to be able to share in one form or another

29:46 everything from osap and kona blue i i i i expect to be able to do that uh can we have all the details probably not and this isn't is it important to have all the details are we are we skewing people's minds in the in a small but still significant wrong directions but uh i don't think anything has been skewed in the wrong direction with what's in here we've just opened up the door by saying hey this is real you need to do your research your due diligence if you expect the the government to carry the ball on this i wouldn't uh but uh that uh it's wide open now as i was saying before the university business you can't say i'm going to research ufos and have a medical degree you can't do that in advance if it comes to you while you've had your

30:50 medical degree and people are claiming they've seen flying saucers or seen aliens or whatever at least you're open to that these books i expect young folks if they read them and that's you've given me another idea george should we do a young person's book oh what something that's uh much smaller and not as uh detailed i mean this was written for a cross-section of people of the general public all the way to the phd level the thing is is is there's something we can encourage younger people to go on i thought a university course but maybe it even needs to be mentioned in high schools we are looking in all of that to all of that you often say this and this is something a lot of people say to me is dr lakatsi is the only one that's out there saying hey the intelligence community needs to pass this information forward to the next generation

31:50 or we're going to lose it it's so compartmentalized that there's nobody new coming in and really getting informed on the uap issue do you do you feel that way because you push for that a lot that we have in the u i feel that way and i think it's happening on on many other topics many others that there's so much information coming in that's really important uh in all aspects of intelligence and there simply isn't the of the personnel perhaps perhaps perhaps with how i have seen ai develop uh the advanced systems that it can be better handled but jeremy you're correct the history is being lost as we speak it's being lost it's being tossed out it can't nothing's being loaded to the degree it has has not been maybe now it is well george um our last interview with a

32:53 representative and i want to get dr lakatsky's opinion on this but our last interview george with rep burleson so maybe this is round three of frasier verse ali got a direct question um you know rep burleson is kind of like the people's champ of ufos right now he has admitted publicly that he has visited a base that was um constructed to hold allegedly a very important uap hardware program or at least that's what it could have it could have held that he went to i'm telling you george and i as as journalists like he went to pax river we're sure of it um now he's going to be visiting other facilities that have been historically said to hold non-human intelligence craft like the one that you admitted to that we breached the whole of so my question is you know have you ever been to the pax river facility and is there a craft there how was there ever a craft there well i i can answer part of the question i can say yes i've been

33:55 there yes i've i've seen the facility but it was it was uh just built so uh i can't say what was going to go in there it was big enough you know there's memories fade like that when you're looking at a big building and sometimes when i look at big buildings they don't seem quite as big when you're there but this could have held our probably our largest aircraft in that building now why would it need to at a naval facility i don't know because they wouldn't have a need for that i would think did they build a facility at pax did they build a facility at pax to hold um a uap or a non-human oh i don't i don't know what the purpose was but it was they were finishing construction when i first saw it um a lot of the things that are really interesting in this new book future visions uh deal with skinwalker so we've

34:55 heard a lot of stories about skinwalker i've helped share them with the world to a degree you really break down specific effects that were measurable physical effects of strange signals um you give data data concerning the number of sightings of creatures um presumably prehistoric creatures that shouldn't exist uh what dog men type creatures that shouldn't exist and and others and you it's not just based on the ranch itself you guys for osap you had this increasingly large concentric circles around the ranch you went out there talked people into sharing their stories and and inevitably you heard these stories though people were reluctant to share them initially that seemed to concern confirm something really weird was going on there is going on there it's not just myth myth it's not just made up stories or fantastical dreams that people have had these things are real and measurable and did happen right yes and we were very um

35:58 uh in regard to uh dr keller he had set up a system where he was cross-referencing information to make sure that there wasn't someone who was giving us things that you know we we wanted to hear uh that these cases were many of the cases or many of the sightings were seen by multiple people some may have been in the same family but it would be generally some of these prehistoric creatures were seen by a number of people at the same time how to explain that how to explain the fact that they seem to ignore what was going on around them in other words there was a creature that was tolling by twiddling by and uh it just ignored like a crowd of people watching it how do you explain that i mean it's almost like there are two different realities but we that's one of the reasons we didn't try to explain

37:00 it was tough enough just gathering this information because by the way you just didn't walk up to the neighbor of the of skinwalker ranch and and ask them strange questions they would have thrown you off the uh uh off their property that's the the the the one really interesting man in black case uh where he came was it a black escalade or a black suburban and who who out there you know george who out there dust their shoes off and raise dress shoes uh it's it's it's almost humorous some of the stuff we collected and it's all been verified it's just odd it it's sort of the brilliance of osap that you were willing to follow the evidence wherever it led and were willing to share the information no how no matter how crazy it sounds because let's say that was a government program you think those reports would have bubbled to the surface or they would yeah um no they would never in fact they

38:03 they they they bubbled off the ranch a bit but i wouldn't say extensively they are always uh people saying we've heard rumors about what goes on in the ranch the government has moved in there uh these strange things occur but the first the first statements aren't well let me tell you what's happening around our house or our property that has to slowly be pulled out and you're involved in some of those discussions george it has to be slowly pulled out because they're thinking they're well these these these these are contractors for the government we don't want them to think we're a nut do you ever do you ever feel like you're working against our own government in in this way that it's so compartmentalized this uap thing that you found that the license plates tied to some of these men in black were from department of homeland security is that part

39:04 correct and then i want to ask a second question oh that's that that that part was correct it took some effort on our our government people to that didn't work for the osep directly but who were involved with it to gather that information but i think that's one of the uh i think perhaps jeremy you're not looking at that in the right way have i mentioned in the books we were suspicious that there was a leak at mufon that someone from the government in some organization not us so we were we were having them gather information directly for us and we got it directly the good cases directly from mufon but had penetrated their their database and were able to outrace us i mean we could respond quickly but we couldn't respond instantly nor did we have people on site across the country they had to fly out of

40:06 las vegas so there was a day or two delay mainly a day day and a half that was our suspicion that yeah maybe this is a government car but we don't know what agency was looking at it and why were they looking at a completely re uh a legitimate reason and it's not working against the government they're doing their job to see that a another classified program uh was being protected but what we were seeing was not a government classified was there another government classified program out at the ranch ever not to my knowledge so i mean there could be around it but i was only concerned with our contract and that we kept our our stuff uh on the straight and narrow we didn't want to go off on the primrose path this direction or other direction when people would send their little remote controlled

41:07 vehicles thank heavens the drones were just under development 10 15 years ago uh when they send them in it's well let's just chase this stuff off we know who's doing it we know others are trying it when people would come to the front gate that the guard force had their handle had their hands on their hands full right at the front gate now i will say at the front gate was where money was materializing out of thin air so to be there was so that that everybody's gonna go there like it's las vegas can you explain that it wasn't outside the gate money materialized is that why brandon bought the ranch well unfortunately it was coins it was not it was not hundred dollar bills well a 50 gold piece from 100 years i mean george i just i'm just real quick so that

42:08 you and i were approached um by a naval intelligence individual and we're given i i mean i got an earful with the promise of documents about something called project javelin i've never said it out loud because at this point there's nowhere to to follow through on this but there's so much either passage material or disinformation that we were as journalists george i were approached by somebody being like there there was a program out there that predated osap you've never heard a project javelin have you no dr lukatsky no okay so it's probably bs but that helps me and i guess if it's counterintelligence i couldn't say if i did but honestly i haven't heard of it back to the money sorry um at at the ranch so one of the things that's in this new book future visions is you verify that there were unusual electromagnetic signals that seem to be emanating from the mesa at the ranch which is very consistent with what the tv show is pursuing these days and at the same time in the same section of the book you say

43:10 that there were countermeasures taken by osap bass uh to see if you could figure out if somebody some human agency was messing with you can you share with us uh the the nature of the signals that you detected and whether the countermeasures that were taken how they worked and were they related to that signal coming from the mesa well we didn't have to take countermeasures against the signal it was intermittent but uh basically it all started uh we we we became concerned about security as you probably know george pretty early and that had to do with the uh the placement of transmitting phones by the way government gsa approved phones i'm not sure where these particular units came from they must have been modified but they had a transmission radius of about uh one to 1.5 kilometers uh they were not installed at

44:11 the ranch but back at uh in las vegas they were discovered by professionals looking for them uh there were suspected tracking devices uh they were looked at on vehicles that were back in vegas and there were scrapes on the underneath of the vehicles where was the standard place to put these tracking devices so they'd been removed by people but the the phones themselves had been found uh one of those phones was submitted to us to me uh and we uh through one of our uh people who was assigned and worked with me on uh on the osep project uh that was early on well we're thinking if they're doing this back in vegas they might be doing this up at the ranch you're being spied on yes and so we brought in professional organizations that were

45:13 recognized by dia to check and see and there were there wasn't anything of i think the bottom line is to say there wasn't anything significant there there was a hint that something might be going on but they were intermittent and that was about it so we were comfortable there now there were also attempts back at bass by individuals and why they would do this when they're asked to they're employed they're asked to do this to transmit all the database that we were gathering from around the world to transmit that off-site to parties unknown and and they continue after notified so that's when i said hey look we need to really find out who's being employed here let's get everyone a secret clearance that's there's no rush on that we had the

46:15 special processing done on the tsscis but that was management and team lead level let's find out who everybody is now everything went well we didn't find out any problems on anyone uh but perhaps those people had departed because you were being spied on though you were trying to study ufos for the government government official program and somebody some entity was employing people to put trackers on cars and bugged the phones in a secure facility back at big low aerospace right and we had uh we had counterintelligence you know who's in charge of it in this country is the fbi we had them come in and do briefings and what's the current status at both locations and so you know we did our due diligence so we were fairly confident that we weren't being spied on i can't speak to the ranch right now i i know brandon fugal is doing a great job up there of furthering the research um and with who

47:19 was trying to spy on you uh who was trying to spy on you we've had the the usual parties we think russia china israel well you it's some or all of the above i mean or none of the above but it it that's the only conclusion you could come to because you know we never traced it back to the source the main thing is in counterintelligence is to get them to break connection and so we we were confident we did that and as you noted in in the books being complete what were they really learning other than the fact that hey this is legit well i've admitted this is all legit uh you know there's we didn't keep secret documents at the ranch that was all back in vegas uh so uh you there were some amazing uh

48:20 experiments that were undertaken and questions that remain that at the ranch and we've talked about some of them before but i i started this part of the conversation by asking about the electromagnetic signals that seem to be coming from the mesa um did you ever figure out what those were and why was it worth pursuing was it because they're transitory they're there one day and gone the next well that was the that's the key answer transitory uh we certainly had that during uh our uh our time there i mean there was a case which i think i can describe in the upcoming that happened during kona blue there there was a levitation of a human being and uh you know that was by a reliable person now you already know about the levitating objects uh you know there at the ranch i'm talking about an actual person uh uh in the air so um

49:27 we um we didn't try to explain as you've commented before and certain events that were clearly off the the uh the property itself because the mesa wasn't on the property and i remember bob bigelow taking me up there to check the mesa up and he went up the most to me and me to him to go up this route i had no idea why we were going up straight up well he wanted to know to get me the full impact uh and that was after i saw what i saw inside the ranch house which is kind of a repetitive as i now understand it a repetitive in the area i was i wasn't the only one to see something in that location you did experiments attempting communication with whatever it is um how did they work out

50:28 did you find anything substantive and in general would you say that communication is possible with whatever it is whatever whoever they are well uh bob bigelow uh directed column and column handled the you know the legitimacy of the experiments of uh moving objects uh moving uh the patterns on a board uh things like that which were sealed cases uh the uh odd time discrepancies in plants that would grow too fast not grow at all uh versus being in las vedas the exact same plants and there were you know i guess i haven't really mentioned in the book what we would have to assume assume to be time anomalies there too you know with certainly the plant growth i mean if a plant is is

51:30 growing at double the rate it should be that's that's noticeable or not growing at all uh still alive but not growing that needs to be noted too we were very heavy on the experimentation but that's very typical for how the intelligence community thinks uh gathering information that's that's how the acquisition community works too gathering information and data is very important especially on experiments the problem is having the time and the money to analyze it and we were uh we were doing the best we could we interrupt this program to bring you a special report a tip is exactly as i described it here now the day they started using a tip in 2015-16

52:34 to describe their their uh uh uh what would you describe that it's more lunchtime get-togethers that's uh and george is laughing i don't know how else to describe it i mean well it's a it's a big issue and people what do you describe it as but no a tip was the name was created um for use in senator reed's letter for our first attempt for material transfer it it came and went the next time i really saw a tip was uh uh uh uh in in the the new york times article right exactly so so we've just we've kind of got it wrong and we we've kind of beaten the dead horse about this but um you know you talk about that name coming up in the reed letter for a material transfer you you are talking about a ufo the transfer of a ufo or

53:35 ufo hardware right well it'll be material transfer yes because you can't say more or you don't know more because when you say it like that it feels like you're you're diminishing what a reality and a truth is if you can't say it you can't say it but we're talking about a material transfer related to uap hardware yes or no i mean well jeremy what would you think the answer would be well i know what the answer is i'm just curious if you can say it i don't think that i that i should i think that the letter needs to stand on its own merits it's been brought up uh even recently the letter what does it really mean well dhs and answer the question right there yeah you get accused of talking in circles um and i understand why i understand why but i think it's done been said george went up in congress and he testified to a material transfer from lockheed martin of what they assumed to be an nhicraft

54:37 and i think it's like you know if you're ever going to say it it's now when you're talking about a material transfer i i will stick with i have been authorized not authorized to say that those words those exact words well that's an answer and i'm surprised they're being said you know there's i saw something on tv a new edition of one of these shows that is describing what is still a compartmented program like a papoose lake different topic but a one of of great mystery and the and i was happy that i said thank heavens they don't know what they're talking about on this show they're describing all the details so i am very i try to be very cautious i can't say anything more about reed's letter but what what do the both of you think i think they were moving a ufo from lockheed martin um you know to trying to move ufo from lockheed martin to to the offset program am i an idiot dr lakatsky

55:39 well you know but the thing is there's there's there's let's go back baby steps here what would be the first thing you would do then then a transfer uh you'd want to see area what are you getting yourself involved with so i'm not that's that's so let's not put put too many words to that letter you would you know it could be an inspection it could be we were looking for a list that's the that's the first step that's an even further baby step we were we were looking for a list that was known to exist a list of what where where ufo craft like how put off said we have 10 or more where they're being held and what materials they are well i don't know if it would have been where they're they're held but we were looking for a list so you shouldn't put too much into that letter other than it was a broad

56:41 request for us uh now we were able to look for the list let's let's jump off that for a moment and guess what it had disappeared list of what disappeared a list of what recovered materials recovered materials huh it was a list but it had and we were given the exact location and it was gone from there and it couldn't be gone by any normal means so someone removed it but let's let's go baby steps just back and that's what i'm trying to teach in the book go baby steps if people want to get a hundred percent answer no one has that to give you so plan out how you're going to research and verify and and don't uh don't dismiss deception well is the word deception from let us say uh suspected aliens let's let's use that don't don't

57:43 dismiss deception on broad terms their part oh the the messengers of deception meaning the visitors themselves could be deceiving humanity haven't you and both you and george encountered profession professors in school and i certainly did in in engineering and science they were game players they wanted to make you think by playing games sometimes they went too far they just plain weren't doing their job as an instructor so i i don't want to be like that but they wanted to have you come to your own conclusions the dad is there there's a lot of stuff in these books and i'm not pitching pitching selling these things because they're they're hard copies are no they're the i guess we sell a fair amount of those but the electronic copies are fine forgetting the gist the verbal copies well i i'm a person where

58:44 words go in one ear and out the other well hold on george george is dr lakatsky saying that we can't dismiss deception from the visitors themselves that's right that's what i'm saying you're you see it throughout your life i've seen it throughout my life yes in school okay gotcha it's a standard technique i'm handing it over to george i'm doing my best um i'd like to return to sort of the origins of osap and you know you've covered different threads through the four books but you know the first very first incident case investigated by osap was tic tac maybe the most consequential ufo series of events ever given the effects of when it came out and um and your colleague jay stratton did the first uh form of the investigation put together a report we're now 22 years later and uh you know the implication keeps leaking out from we think we know who um oh yeah that's one of ours we

59:46 were just testing it and seeing how the navy would react which seems preposterous but if that's one of ours something we built we haven't seen it yet we haven't seen it deployed we know that the capabilities of that weapon system would be revolutionary change the world maybe you could conquer the world with just one of them if we had it but take us back to tic tac what you've learned then what you've learned since was that ours or was it somebody else's and i ask in the context of arrow which the last time we talked out of conversation here you basically agreed with us that it looks like a counterintelligence operation which of course arrow is like the roach motel the old ads for the roach motel roaches go in they never come out witnesses go in testimony goes in nothing comes out arrow has yet to formally dismiss um explain uh discourage uh interest in the tic tac is tic tac still legit is it ours do we have anything like it and if we did why the hell don't we use it what do you think well

1:00:48 i think here you're you're right asking the right questions i'm not the right one to answer on some of them others i am but what do you think do you think that that that such a machine from 25 years ago was when it was seen not 25 uh 22 it was a 22 uh you think we wouldn't see some evidence of of that machine now come in handy it would come in handy uh i mean we saw some unusual craft that have come out that are stealth craft um uh drones um but nothing like that and and and there are indicators when we were doing OSAPT of high performance drones with battery lives much longer than than were even postulated at the time and that we're certainly seeing

1:01:49 now uh you know now we're talking about drones that fly from one country to another but uh the the answer to your question is there were some things that still haven't been released that were classified on um on uh the tic tac incident so i think if i was just jim of the street the jim public i i i wouldn't believe it if anyone told me that that was a classified program of the us that i i just i just can't believe that but but the thing is is there's classified programs that are your developments and you know crumbs that you've picked up in the forest you know that would be quite the crumb uh if you know what i mean yeah if there are

1:02:50 crumbs left in the forest for you to follow that would be a big crumb but i i i just don't believe it that was an unusual device as you saw in in uh in some of the specialized studies here which weren't much of a study because there were more inquiries into other observations of tic tac tac tic tac like objects there's a uh a couple few cases in here and there are others reported in other states i know uh and and one in florida and one out west in addition to these so uh you know are these just mundane objects you have a couple of sections in this new book about the russian files the thread three files and where it led can you give us a summary of what you learned from those what was learned and the significant conclusions that you could draw from the documents that came back

1:03:51 from from the ussr former ussr well as you know we trans translated them uh we got a distribution and discussion approved by dia because they were all marked highly secret in soviet markings um russian markings um i would say that we this is contrary to what's out there on the internet that we patterned our program after these well we received them too late in the program to uh to actually pattern anything after the the uh thread three uh uh documents we were in the process of uh studying them and uh that's when uh we were running into rough waters with the program continuing beyond and actually we hadn't planned to do research on them anyway that would have been

1:04:52 in a third year fourth year of the program um so contrary to what people say we were duplicating the russian program no we had no knowledge of it at the time uh so i mean other than the word thread three we certainly didn't have any translated documents it's interesting that both countries were following a similar path using different languages i felt they committed to a technology too early but that's jim's opinion having read over the thread three documents of course that's 30 years difference though both companies were offensively we're pursuing the same thing they just had started 30 30 years earlier yes that's true um but they didn't do it in the same way for example they were i don't know if they had a i would call it very organized collection effort by mufon mufon was very

1:05:52 smooth organization when we were dealing with them and they were supplying us the key cases um we were able to really utilize that properly i didn't see the where the russians were making any attempt to do that so and and to lock into certain technology and materials research as early as they did i feel as there was no way we could have made a similar decision and besides remember when we use the term acquire materials those materials obviously have it looked at before so it's just another set of eyeballs on on the same thing uh well i'll ask you this just as a guess theoretical question you know you're our mutual friend and colleague colin kelleher has stated publicly that he suspected that whatever

1:06:52 the intelligence was operating at skinwalker ranch and then in the uint basin might be in a machine intelligence and it makes me wonder if you're not stating what who they are where they're from it sounds like it's a non-human intelligence of some sort call it aliens ets whatever could that non-human intelligence be ai if a machine a version of a machine we're using our current terminology i mean the answer is yes but not in the way you think a machine machine we're not let's not go back to the old star treks and the old star wars i mean that's that's our concept hollywood's concept we're we're dealing with things far beyond that even in the conceptual role so the thing is is what's a machine what's a human what's what's an alien in the future a combination of all

1:07:54 probably well let's say a machine intelligence ai call it software that's installed here by someone else from somewhere else installed a facility on site well sort of a an overarching authority similar to what jacques valet has postulated a control system maybe that keeps us from blowing each other up or modulates human activity i hope they would do that when christ comes to shove but the fact is is that as as as you well know among any of us here or among your listeners there are other locations that are just as substantial as the ranch if not more so so we're talking about a worldwide overview i i can conceptualize it off-planet origin but i i certainly can't something that is uh an overarching system

1:09:00 that is on earth uh doing all of this now that is not in contradiction to my cover here which looks a bit unusual and it is unusual to what you designed for the cover it didn't turn out that way correct i let loose on this one i i asked ai to come up with this one based upon reading the books what would it what would it show and this is what it came up with i haven't changed this at all except for the fact is i'm i'm i'm i'm constantly asked on on these three books or two of them the last two um can you submit a higher resolution cover and uh in in really in both cases i had to put the star field back in the high resolution this is a technical issue with

1:10:02 however amazon produces these the entire star field disappears i have no idea why but the the basic what you see here on the covers you know on the previous one on new insights the the square was suggested and drawn totally contrary to my request totally maybe ai knows something you dump well it is or it's better designer than i am and has more more thoughts into it i mean it put into the the sheeting if you look real close there's there's panels on the uh on the uh the square there is more coming in from above other craft and it put it in so i utilize ai in in regard to the cover but i will tell you that not one word other than suggestions on the index which is as always

1:11:07 confused me is how am i supposed to form an index on these documents when you don't know what's in the document so i'm having to come up with innovative i've asked ai its suggestions but i i still have to do it but not a word not a word in the rest of the documents is ai generated there's your law from official files you know uh mr bigelow our mutual friend yes gave me the green light to go ahead and say to congress that there was a negotiation going on between lockheed martin and bass to acquire materials to the transfer of materials and he you know that's the first time he's ever said yeah you can go ahead and say it publicly under oath um the implication is that there are other materials out there uh you have written in a previous book there was an entire craft of unknown origin should we assume that there are more and and was your revelation in that

1:12:09 book and and in this book it was authorized by all the adopter the process somebody wanted that to be said i mean to go that far it's astonishing to me that was ever allowed and um and it makes it it makes us wonder why why it happened give it in the context of right now president trump has said i'm going to release the files which whether or not that actually happens i don't know what those files would be but it seems like there is a an interest among the public certainly to see whatever there is you and i and jeremy know they're only going to be satisfied with somebody says we've got 12 land saucers we got 18 bodies and here they are you know anything short of that people will be pissed off about it and can you imagine a time when something will be released publicly that goes beyond you being able to say there's a craft we got inside of it we got at least one and being able to say yeah there was a planned transfer of material unusual

1:13:11 material to being a little aerospace would you predict that that will go further at some point would you say it's likely to happen now under this administration that says they're going to release the files i can see it happening but you you qualified your questioning uh there with under this administration and possibly under a near term administration the answer to that is i don't believe so but it will it'll go further you know in the future excuse me it'll go further a lot of the things we as you can tell i'm deflecting your questions oh and there never happened before here right no it's the first time but uh the thing is is is i really can't go further you know i i i think that uh you mentioned was it the last time i interviewed with you uh that uh uh congressman burleson had stated that um

1:14:14 you know my testimony wouldn't be any more insightful than these books that is a correct statement he's making i've been approved for these books it wouldn't be i could only say because i'm not answering right now you're you're pushing the envelope you've gone beyond the envelope and i can't answer that way so you could answer to congress even if they had you under oath you wouldn't be allowed to answer them on some of the um more sensitive compartmentalized issues of uap okay you asked a specific question there about congress i couldn't answer if if if other individuals or an individual asked me higher level equivalent level in the constitution so you're allowed to protect information even from congress i've been told that before and i've been you know that i'd have to be accompanied uh uh throughout my career so that's uh i

1:15:17 would say that no one i would hope that no one is lying to congress however i know differently in these hearings you do know that people have lied during the hearings i've i know that people have lied and they've raised now hold on who's lied and what did they lie about oh i could never say that what why are you are you not allowed to say that no i wouldn't professionally say that okay i mean we're we're we're talking about people who may not know there's a lot of this going on these days but let me tell you that there's people who don't know the difference between a lie and exaggeration and pure fantasy okay but just as you you've said it hold then you've said it so let's let's eliminate who didn't lie because i think that's important to do to them because you just want to target on people so dylan borland did he lie oh i would never say that no you wouldn't say that because it's not

1:16:18 true he didn't lie no i wouldn't say that because i don't know okay well that's different so you know of somebody that lied but that is not dylan borland correct i haven't i don't know him at all no no okay but that that's important because you said somebody lied in congress and you're aware of it so you're isolating somebody that lied and it's important to me that we are very clear that that is not george knapp not dylan borland stop me if i'm wrong not senior chief wiggins that is not those two individuals not jeff mucitelli oh here you're going to go through all the people no i'm not going to do that i'm just going to make sure that our audience understands that when you've said somebody particularly has lied in congress and you know it but you won't elaborate that we take the the the bullseye off of people that i know you're not talking about so that would be there's no bullseye on these people are they've all moved off uh no no no no they haven't their statements they've sworn to their statements and i just

1:17:20 leave that sleeping dog lie oh don't start saying those words man you don't know what you just did um sleeping dog right i i hear you but it's important to me because i helped bring those people in that we get very clear that your accusation that somebody lied that it is not i'm just going to say four people george knapp dylan borland senior chief wiggins or jeff mucitelli who have testified and those are the people you brought in you're saying i brought in almost everybody with george but i'm just saying those four people now now we're going something i can't answer and i won't answer anymore the fact is i made a statement that there was falsehoods made uh uh the the source of those falsehoods could be total delusion i think otherwise other people think otherwise but it could be that they're just totally diluted okay but i mean i think i know what you're referencing and i just think it's important to just separate the people so that you don't paint the false

1:18:20 target on their back that's necessary i think this is part of the research process and you're doing it but uh you you can't you can't come to an answer by just getting another bit of information from some of the people i don't i don't even know i i know there's a disconnect here because you don't realize what it takes when people go up there and and they raise their hand and you're saying somebody lied and i want to make sure to take the false target off of certain people's backs so the public doesn't start creating and filling in nonsense again but we'll move on i just wanted to make sure i know you can't i can't help you with that and besides that i i wouldn't there when people it's just like enough there's another reason i won't testify at congress that the boat has sailed on there's testimony they said what they said and i can't go back and correct it even though i have proof that could correct it i can't do that it's too late it can't be undone it can't be

1:19:23 undone and and people know that in general and from experiences in their lives that once it gets going false stories can't be undone poor kids on the internet kill themselves because of the same reason false stories about them back to the idea of disclosure you know the public has its ideas of what disclosure should be the president has issued a directive it's not an executive authority has no authority behind it to declassify what most certainly has classified materials uh files and and videos and things of that sort the osap materials so taken together these four books are the closest we are to actual disclosure given that everything you've written has been authorized by the various people and agencies in the process as of this time it's it's effectively as you said jordan's disclosure is there concern if you think forward in what

1:20:23 disclosure in the forms it could take whatever trump and and uh the his agencies might reveal in the future and we have no idea what that might be do you can are you concerned about disruption of human civilization of of of religions freaking out of people rioting in the streets the stock market crumbling from anything that you suspect could be released but hasn't yet to be released oh i'm i'm i'm i i think you would be getting an incomplete story an incomplete narrative if something further was released and i'm afraid of people going off society going off in the wrong direction and that's my only concern but i won't be around to see that i don't think something's going to happen tomorrow or or in the immediate future why why would we get a incomplete story if disclosure was pushed a little bit further can you just elaborate on

1:21:23 that oh yes sure you would be getting an incomplete story an incomplete story oh i mean if if if you're satisfied with the fact that they would reveal that there is uh alien technology being encountered and that there are aliens if you were beast really jeremy think about if you would be satisfied with just that would you be well you know me and you know i wouldn't be but you also know that that's a good starting point what you just said as an acknowledgement of disclosure and it goes on and on and on and on that's okay that's not your problem oh it it is my problem if i've contributed to it going on and on in the wrong direction and i don't want that well i don't think you can stop it at this point if the words you just said were said by our president and then there was some form of proof that was shown maybe in missouri like the show me state and we could bang hammers on a

1:22:23 craft of non-human origin you know an extraterrestrial maybe even craft try to you know bring some propane torches just to get a feel that that is true that would be a disclosure you know disclosure day the movie's coming up that would be a disclosure that i think people would embrace and i don't think it is anybody's job to hold back the nature of reality from humankind so i think that if we got that far is that going to reveal the nature of reality you know you tell me but what it's going to do is stop hiding the nature of reality and so if we got that part down because it's nobody can be the overlord of truth so if we get that part down sure we protect our nuclear secrets just like we protect how to make a nuclear bomb but we know nuclear fusion and nuclear reactions exist if everything was revealed to you right now would be so incomplete it would be useless meaning because nobody really knows the ultimate answer the correct not even our government that there are there are people that might

1:23:24 think they do but they don't okay that's all you know look and it's not a personal attack on you this is um something i feel very passionate about which is that it is nobody's right tell you jeremy it comes across as that and it comes across to the public is that is that i'm doing something wrong george is correct they've gotten what they've gotten right here it's complete and it's truthful and i'm telling you that there's falsehoods out there they're being led down a wrong path congress is being led down a wrong path the president is being led down the wrong path there's a problem here and i'm i'm disturbed by it because i'm not going to live forever and i want the truth to come out it's like senator reed told me they're kind of on their own because he felt he felt sorry for me by you know uh the way i had to be badgered and i had people reinforcements jump up for me i had other people who just

1:24:24 denied me who who denied their association i had others that jump up and jumped into the pitch battle and i'm talking about it the high i'm talking beyond and outside dia the fact is is there is two forces out there that want people to know and and there are those that don't want people to know and is that religious element out there absolutely is it effective absolutely not however the turmoil it creates has been terrible but i'm not blaming that part of it i'm talking about the more fundamental in in human nature so you've had me say a lot more i look like i have a calm demeanor all the time where i actually don't you know the fact is when i'm seeing total failure and and i feel that maybe i shouldn't have bothered writing these books george disclosing this and i said the same at asa and people

1:25:25 said oh no jen that's not true it's just because it's ending it was the way it was unceremoniously ended you know it it was just a couple letters went out and is we just want to get rid of this attitude in the letters so did one side win and another side lose no because we completed the job in kona blue and what we did in dhs we competed completed the job as much as we could people ask me did no people haven't asked me but they should that transfer of material that dhs said in kona blue denied didn't exist don't you think i already knew that already this was the third attempt for that transfer under the conditions laid for us the third attempt and this was did i not

1:26:26 know he was going to fail what i didn't know and the surprise what i didn't know was something i can't tell you right now i was very surprised of what they were really focused on very surprised and it wasn't transfer of recovered technology can you give us a hint or can i give you a hint no i can't give you a hint you're going to have to come to that conclusion conclusion i don't think i ever be allowed to reveal that and it would be denied by others so i'd never have any proof but i know where they're i know where they were coming from and uh we were with this discussion was by myself and a key individual on on the secure line because i was what you want what so the thing is i didn't say that to them because they would i had to say i'll try i'll

1:27:27 try i'm trying but i i am upset because i mean people are getting spun up the government people got spun up let me tell you one big spin up and one real problem we had was the discovery of those phones that that brought attention on this project like you wouldn't believe and it was from the religious element i ultimately found out they found out about this program by people talking about those secure phones they weren't concerned about this was leaking they were concerned that this project even existed were those people beaten back well they didn't think they were but they were they were and they were beaten back in three different organizations in fact one i believe one of the proponents was thrown out of the room literally so it was it was i'm i'm giving you a full story in one sense about the

1:28:28 experience that i had at dia and with uh dhs and with dni it was a pitch battle i i mean there were people at dhs that uh i was warned you you need to stick keep clear of them i didn't even work there and i'm being warned by hooded you know they're in a uh they've got the management a year and i'm talking top level the directors a year and you know don't engage with them don't say the slightest word wrong uh it was just unbelievable in fact it's a story both of you would love to hear and that's why i'm convinced this will never go forward again you may find out some pieces and that you would like to find out that the counterintelligence people have approved but you know as a comprehensive program that was let loose to do what it needed to do and we failed at times we failed at the university we failed in brazil let's let's

1:29:31 call it what it was you know we spent money uh we didn't fail on all the documents the 38 we didn't fail at all there we didn't fail at all on the research that bass did we got everything we needed the verifications we got the the low down the true story but the thing is is you know that and it's the important story jeremy that's important to you it's the important story we got it leads into the important aspects of this and which i hope to see keep going it's it's going in which is that it's beyond just craft the importance are this great oh it's far beyond just craft and you know and some of the material we acquired show that it's far beyond it is about craft there's certainly something to learn there i mean there's a lot to learn more but it it's it's more than just that and but you know it's constantly had reading

1:30:33 about me do i monitor the web i monitor it very closely because i try to adjust the content of the books to that still be truthful and try to keep them entertaining but you know it's hard to around fools and i know what they say about the both of you too let's not let's not be i know that but hey you know and i don't say i do i interview with despite that the fact is i think you're both great guys and you've helped a lot but you know don't become obsessed with this don't go to the to the grave thinking that i will learn everything by the time you know i i make my flight to heaven well i i maybe you will but i just want to learn then i want to learn the next piece you know and me pushing is just because i don't have much option here um you know i really appreciate um all that you've done known and unknown for the the movement that people call disclosure but really just about telling the truth um i got a bunch a bunch

1:31:34 of messages uh yesterday and today people kind of you know i've talked to say yeah i'm gonna do an interview tomorrow they knew who george and i were talking about and they wanted to thank you people that that you know have raised their hand or not they they want to thank you for everything that you've done you know within government and publicly and put yourself out there to you that to you but that it doesn't come across on the internet that way yeah uh it doesn't come across that way at all in fact i'm saying if if these are the fools we're dealing with and we might as well you know just give up right now but i tell you there are the people out there who are going to keep going they're just they're going to be breakthroughs but i concern both technology wise and otherwise but it all comes down to to physics let's say so it is technology um i i am concerned and i am saying this right now as an old

1:32:34 man because the crew is getting old jeremy they're going to start dying too what we ran into in northern tier i truthfully came across with but there's a lot more in the documents that say we can't find out anything this person's dead the persons are all gone northern tears become meaningless in other words the the saucers uh coming into the purported saucers coming in to uh nuclear missile sites yeah in fact i was laughingly told to by uh air force intelligence that the security guards at dia had blocked them from leaving unless they'd talk to me because i had i was working on you don't know about this but another case and another big case involving the same thing and coercion into the the missile silos but the fact is is we failed in getting any more information than what's out there i'm just hope it's

1:33:37 compiled enough that people understand how does the internet also breeds false documents it has plenty of false information out there deliberate but uh we had our failures too i don't emphasize them but i think people can kind of read between the lines and see well you went to brazil and you went there really to get a blood sample of a particular individual and that and you were promised that from the key individuals both here and in brazil that that would be obtained and it wasn't obtained you know because i'm quite used to having the rug pulled out from under me in this project and uh sinister forces no i don't think so it's just the way it's done is the ultimate um you've been optimistic in in previous conversations you know about where this could lead in terms of human potential not nuts and bolts i am i am but it could be

1:34:39 taken another way too the same could be could go in the wrong direction you wrote these books and these books will resonate through time and maybe right now humanity's not ready to to really take it on the nose with this stuff or we're asking the wrong questions but what you've done will last the test of time jim you realize that right i don't know i really don't i hope it would and that's my intent that's why my intent to keep going but uh uh you've got your hands full to convince people even on your weaponized show i i know that you've got a a bunch of supporters but i i'm wondering how many are here for entertainment uh well and how many are here to dissuade people from believing it that they're assigned to attack it and and cast doubt about it well they may be officially assigned too but there's those who uh i could name some names here too that are considered expert references for these

1:35:41 paranormal shows out there that go on believe me they know nothing they know nothing about what they're talking about but as as i told you in our last interview they speak with this thought knowledge and authority based on what who assigns them knowledge and authority i gotta say i don't feel bad um i'm pressing dr james lakatsky uh via you george has become a friend to a degree in that you know i know where his heart's at and know what he's trying to do and he does get a bad rap you know people say well you can't say this and this is you know z but you've just said a all the way up to um y but you can't say z so he you know look i have to press him a little bit but out of out of love and out of interest and because that's what we got to find out what's underneath the hood there man he is a mystical person when he talks but i i do understand he's protecting national security issues and

1:36:41 i think everybody needs to understand that he's done more than he can he's done as much as he can and i just appreciate him and people online man give him give the guy a break he's not he doesn't have a thick skin for online stuff like maybe you and i have to um look at what he's done look at what he's given you and and it's up to us to take it from there yeah i think the interesting thing for him is uh first a legal one you know he made oaths it's his honor on the line he made a promise he would go this far and no further and there's a legal issue involved he he got authorization because that's the guy he is maybe he's like a a previous generation type guy who not previous from my generation but uh that he uh he gets permission legal authority to reveal more and he won't go further the more important lesson from him both in this conversation and in others that you and i have had with him is that ultimately nobody knows the ultimate truth we don't know where these things are

1:37:42 from we don't know who built these craft we don't know the long-range implications of for is there a plan for humanity how long they've been here what do they got in mind as we have spoken many times in our conversations with him and with others you know we've long suspected nobody really knows the answers to this you and i've been pretty far up the food chain asking the same kind of questions and we haven't found a single person who could say oh yeah these these aliens they're aliens they're ets they're from the planet krypton and here's why they're here and this is what they want to do they genetically engineered us um bob lazar read a lot of interesting documents he doesn't know if they were true or they were a test of some kind we have yet to find a single person in the u.s government that knows the ultimate answers we what he has shared with us is as far as he can go but he has doesn't have any knowledge of what the ultimate answers are any more than we do he certainly knows more information that we do and that in more information that he's made

1:38:42 public but he doesn't know the ultimate answers to the big questions and people can stomp and yell stomp their feet and demand the full truth but they're never going to be satisfied because nobody else really knows the answers to those either i think the most interesting tidbits in that exchange that we haven't discussed further deal with kona blue he made comments a couple of times jeremy where he's talking about kona blue as if it is real you know the popular conception is it ended that dhs kicked it out seems to be very tantalizing tidbits that at least an element of kona blue went forward and may still be going forward in a previous conversation with me he said he sort of acknowledged that that uh that elements of kona blue did go forward we may never know any of that and we know don't know which elements of kona blue did go forward but it sounds like maybe he might be pursuing that as a future project that he hopes to make public yeah i mean he in his book i read through it twice really wanted

1:39:43 to make sure i had good questions lakatsky reveals that he personally briefed two department of homeland security officials in a skiff for three and a half hours in february of 2011 and he said that that left them shell-shocked that's a quote with sleepless nights and his exact words were that osap never ended but converted to kona blue so he's he's not like hinting at it he straight told you that kona blue moved into some aspect of working on the phenomenon that it wasn't a dead program that it's not a dead program yeah you're right and he said something even further in another conversation with me he said it has to go forward he said it cannot end it had to go forward to some degree it's there will never be another osap nothing that broad but at least one element of kona blue is going forward we just don't know what it is right yeah you can't say right you probably cannot say for national security reasons yeah right exactly i mean

1:40:44 we don't want him to go to prison before crossing a line well he wouldn't he's he's so fastidious about drawing that line it's got to be frustrating i think i saw a little bit of that today it's got to be frustrating for him he's like standing on a mountaintop telling it like it is in the most just specific direct you know order and it's got to be frustrating that people are out there in ufo land spreading lies making things up it's a fantasist world in ufo land a lot of the time and it just it's got to really bother somebody like him deep down when they're coming towards looking at the sunset of their life in a way i mean he's not getting any younger and he said that and we have to transfer this information and there's so much fantasy out there and i've given you like books that are exact which you know they are with him yeah so yeah he is meticulous for sure and then you know obviously he's also shared with us before that he's dropping some breadcrumbs here he wants us to fill in the blanks in in some of the things that he shared with us and i think he's discouraged

1:41:45 to uh many times because people are not paying attention they want data here's some and they don't pay any attention to it he's he's you know connecting dots sometimes subtly and and and it goes right over people's heads and i imagine that it gets frustrating for him and he wonders why am i bothering with it we're all we're all frustrated when we talk about you know trying to figure out what's going on especially if you get from a guy like him who says look i don't know anybody that knows the full picture that's got to be kind of scary too you know yeah and i think bottom line in other conversations that you and i've had with him is that there is a glimmer of hope in all of this uh that he's shared with us that there's something about human potential that gets revealed at as a bottom line in all this kind of research uh that um that we haven't had uh him expressed to us in specific terms but maybe he'll come back and maybe he'll share that with us in the future anyway it was a great conversation yeah thanks so much man so yeah oh i think

1:42:48 uh next week it's um episode or maybe in a week or week and a half it'll be episode one one five one fifteen one fifteen is there some subtle hidden meaning to that number i don't know just dropping breadcrumbs man