“The Government UFO Boss”: James Lacatski, part 2, on New Insights (WEAPONIZED, November 2025)

0:00 In part two of our interview with the creator and head of the U.S. government's largest acknowledged UAP study program, Dr. James Lukatsky. The glory days of technologies were the 60s and 70s. There were a lot of bright ideas and a lot of tests. The Georgia case, where the fellow inadvertently hit, not inadvertently, he deliberately fired at a black triangle a million candle. Spotlight, and it immediately fired back a radiation beam, and he got tumors from it. Through some investigative journalism over the years, I came to understand that you were read into and involved in a legacy UAP program before OSAP. Do you deny that? This is Weaponized. The following is part two of our interview

1:02 with Dr. James Lukatsky. I'm asking you about this crap. I'm asking you, was it given to us? Was it gifted to us? Was it a crash? Or you're going to get people mad at me for not answering when they know in advance, and so do you, that I can't answer. And neither could they, and neither could some of the people who are going before Congress. They're putting pretty tight restrictions on it if they do go behind closed doors. I'm saying the closed doors don't really matter in answering their question. Okay, here's something you can't answer. I imagine you can't answer to me if the craft had its own intelligence, if it was sentient in some way in and of itself. You're not going to answer that, I assume, right? So I got one you can't answer. Last one, George, on this craft, but I just got to ask these or I'm not doing my job. You alluded that the UFO in the possession of the U.S. makes the technology described in your other book, Initial Revelations,

2:02 look primitive. What did you mean by that? It looks primitive. Okay, but what does that mean to you? It means it's very advanced, and that's all I can say. Very, very advanced, and with worldwide repercussions. Okay, but give me an idea I can sink my teeth into of what that means. When you say very advanced, I'm thinking, well, I've got an iPhone 17 and an original iPhone. That's a big difference. Are we talking sticks and stones to superconductors, advanced difference? Absolutely. Jim, Lukaski, you said earlier in this conversation, I am for disclosure. I'm not sure that has always been your position as expressed to us. Maybe it was, but I got a different impression. Do these books constitute disclosure? In my opinion, yes. They are my disclosure, and they are the

3:04 public's disclosure. Remember, the public paid $22 million for the information. The resulting information from OSAP is, for the most, for 99%, is releasable. But here's another nitpick. It's not a nitpick. It's a fact. The government owns the reports. You've got to get it from the government, and you've got to have it cleansed by the government and checked by the government for public release. I can't release to you the information. If I would, I'd get a big stapler and staple all the documents together and give it to you. And if you wanted to try to interpret it, go ahead. It's going to be difficult. And that's also why, by the way, I broke up the technology portions into easy, engineering degree, physics degree, or PhD.

4:06 And anyone who claims they understand all that is in those books for the technologies is fooling themselves. They're certainly not fooling other technical people. These reports are gathered from OSAP. They're investigated. They're checked out and vetted. Incidents, experiences, things of that sort, from the official DIA program. They are approved through the Dobser process. You are given permission to make this public. It is a form of disclosure. Yes, it absolutely is. It may not be going as fast as people like, but you really want to buy a war and peace or rise and fall of the Third Reich. How much would that book cost? I mean, it can't be, it can't, it has to be in a digestible amount. Somebody had to say yes to allow this. Are you amazed that you're allowed to continue and spill some of this stuff, make it public? Because you would think there's got to be

5:06 people somewhere, maybe an arrow, who are not all that thrilled that it's coming out. I don't know if that's really the case. It's what comes out and the detail of what comes out. Jeremy had said that before. It's like talking about a nuclear weapon and then having the design blueprints and the fuel for the weapon. There's a big, big difference there. And I can only say some, I mean, I think this interview I'm saying much more than the first one. But the thing is, it's all still hasn't crossed the line. And there'll be, but I've got to ask what the line is about future, future things. Because you're telling us UFOs, we have one, we're reverse engineering it, but can you describe the inside? Can you talk about your personal experience with this crap? How you breached the whole, you don't know if you can say those things yet, but certainly they want us to know that much.

6:07 Not the nuclear codes, but the fact nuclear weapons exist. Same thing about UFOs. Yes, I believe it'll go in the same way. Yeah. And the thing is, is that now there's some of this, the public has to, the public scientists have to participate in. As I said, Kona Blue was a compartment reputed to be for recovered technology. And then there's Kona Blue, the program, which was, in essence, first described in, and I'm pointing up to a book sitting up there, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Right. Because the private investment of money, we know that OSAP is not going to be repeated. We know that. There's no way that's going to be repeated. That focus on the paranormal and UFOs. So you've got to learn now and then move on.

7:10 You can't say, well, I'm going to fund another OSAP too. No. And if anyone thinks that that was the plan, well, they're wrong. Is there anything that you were told you can't say this about that craft? Did you try to say more? And through the DOPSO process, they said, nope, that crosses the line. No, no, I didn't try to say more because I know the rules and what they'd really deny. I will say there were some adjustments, not severe, but adjustments to skinwalkers at the Pentagon. In other words, take this out type of adjustment. And I'm not talking about just names and academic institutions. That we can't say this. Here's something for Jeremy. We can't say this at this point, but we did

8:10 in the books further on. You know, it's like inch by inch you're making it down. You can't eat the whole whale at once. No, and look, I really appreciate it. I mean, I see it as a heroic thing that you're making these books and pushing each time to get a little further. I think people don't understand that or they're very frustrated that you take your oaths seriously. But something you just mentioned that I think is a big point of yours that we haven't really pushed on at this point. I mean, you basically ran the X-Files for the U.S. government. I mean, it was pretty wild. There were wild things that occurred, but you said it best. You said a study focused solely on UFOs on various unknown nuts and bolts type craft flittering around in the skies over military bases and facilities would never get to the heart of a much larger and complicated mystery. And I think what you were trying to say to us is if you just think you're going to

9:11 study UFOs, you're going to be smacked with reality. Reality is the UFO phenomenon is just shrouded and covered with what you would call, I don't know, the good word, abnormal aspects of reality. Yes, yes, that you've got to look much further than nuts and bolts. Now, can you study nuts and bolts and use it for a levitating craft would be tremendous. It doesn't have to be a fast craft, but a levitating airliner. Think about where it could go everywhere in the world. It wouldn't need an airport. Don't you think we've already achieved that? Like we hear about all these people on military bases seeing triangles and you're doing this study, OSAP, to try to figure out the physics of how to do that. Do you think it's already been achieved by the U.S. government or it hasn't? And that's why OSAP had a lot of value. It hasn't been achieved to its full extent. And by the way, that's where a suggestion

10:13 fronted by Senator Reid went into was, I actually asked about your very question. Can we just cut through all of this and do what we can do right now and check out this type of craft to the point of using all the money? Just it's like it's like just make it putting all your chips on one. Because I said the breakthrough would be tremendous if we can just pursue that. That wasn't funded either. Okay. It was difficult. Just make it. You know, Senator Reid got into a situation where people were turning down the money. One after another were turning down the money. Again, doesn't that seem a bit odd? A minority leader and then a former majority leader of the Senate and they're turning down new money?

11:14 Isn't that odd? Why would they be doing it? Going back to that final statement I made, what is it about OSAP and Kona Blue that somebody has to poo-poo on it and degrade what is and ridicule and laugh at it? Why is that? And it's not one or two or three people. It permeates the public. It certainly permeates. I had some doozy of arguments with people at the Pentagon. I'm not telling you. And, you know, I could have, but I knew what they were going to do as soon as they learned anything. But that's where my statement comes in. That was a perfect example back then of people assuming authorities and wanting knowledge they had no need to know and had no business knowing. And they wouldn't accept no for an answer. You make an impassioned argument in the new

12:17 book about the necessity for not trying to separate UFOs from paranormal. I mean, that's how it started. You were interested in Skinwalker Ranch. You had an experience there yourself. And no matter how weird things got for the investigators, these intelligence folks who would go to the ranch, maybe feeling like they could put an end to these mysteries and speculation about werewolves and things like that. But you didn't. I mean, you believe that they are intrinsically linked and you can't separate one from the other and expect to understand either. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, why those things are linked, why we can't just separate? Well, why they're linked, I'm not sure. But I do know that OSAP investigators were instructed to, and when I say investigators, I don't mean people back in the building. I mean in the field, who are talking to the

13:18 public, were saying, move slowly because you'll learn a lot more. More occurred around a UFO sighting than just the sighting. And the MUFON investigators who may have been through the door first to talk to these people, then followed up by BASS personnel, they knew that they should be asking more about what is termed the paranormal. They knew it. But it's hard to realize that to volunteers in the field who think, I want to discover the propulsion method for the UFO, or I want to find the body lying, that they took off without lying in the field. I want that. I don't want to go into the strange in order to, but it's not strange. It's not strange.

14:18 It's always been there. The connection has always been there. And the thing is, is if there's someone trying to teach us something, they must be just shaking their heads by now, just saying, man, these guys are stubborn. They just don't get it. So the thing is, is but what to get? You know, we have to figure that out. But you need money to do some of that. You know, you can't just say, oh, back during the contract, there was a good argument for, I don't want to call it the Department of the Paranormal, but something that got more than a measly $22 million. You know, let's divert $100 million. Let's divert $150 million. By the way, those were the plans. You know, Senator Reid was going to move up very high. But, and expand in the same way. We weren't going to chase flittering UFOs all around the countryside.

15:19 Because you saw that the, I think you're reading between the lines, for example, in Brazil. Brazil had some very successful encounters and discussions. But for the most part, it was like, gee, we're just kind of, I don't want to say wasting our money coming down here. But you notice we didn't go back. The thing is, you send investigators there. They have this hitchhiker experience. It follows them home. They see werewolves and other strange phenomena. It spreads through their families. The fact that these people, like PhD scientists, seasoned intelligence officials who go to the ranch and have these experiences, see werewolves, dino beavers, Bigfoot type thing. That can't be comfortable for them to admit what they saw because it sounds so crazy. And it's so easy for critics of ASAP to say exactly what people like an arrow have said.

16:21 Oh, it's a ghost hunt. It's werewolves. It's goofy. Ha, ha, ha. It's easy to say. It's easy. Leads, right? You follow the evidence. Yes, you've got to have nerves of steel. And I can tell you, not everything has come out, not everything at all, because some people's real names have been discovered, a number of them. And we only put things in, not that were super wild, but would have probably had people trying to track them down. We did have at least one group try to track, oh, my gosh, you've changed the names and the locations. We want to re-interview these people. Well, they don't want to be re-interviewed unless they search you out. And we were very sensitive to that. Also, there were some pretty straightforward, I think, threats of lawsuits that Dobser

17:26 warned us about. You know, try to mask their identity. Yeah, you're telling the truth, but you don't have to tell the public too much or they'll be camping on their doorstep. And people don't want that. And as an investigator, you don't want the, basically a, well, George, you know that there are other locations other than the ranch in the country. I mean, they could exceed the examples as a ranch. You don't want people stomping there and disturbing the homeowners. And I put that in the plural because some have more than one. I mean, I was gratified by the way that Mr. Fugel, Brandon Fugel, if that's pronounced correctly, admitted that Fugel were, his employees and visitors were sitting

18:27 approximately where I was in the living room and have seen things. God, what does that mean? I had my back to the, what is basically the front door, the kitchen door. Do they have more than one door than the one door? And why did it happen right there? The only thing he convinced me was that there was more to this than meets the eye. Better talk to Senator Reid about this. We need some money to at least investigate, investigate the military aspects of this. Right. If, if there are craft coming out of portholes being deployed on American soil, that would be of concern. So. However, there is a fake story out there. The one about the fight between Bigelow guards and aliens with lasers. Now that, that, and, and the guards won. I mean, autumn, fully automatic weapon might dissuade even someone with a laser.

19:29 So, but that was a fake story, but did it get traction? Yeah. The, the fake stories often get, get traction. So, Hey, just right off the cuff here, you know, do some investigative journalism over the years. I came to understand that you were read into and involved in a legacy UAP program before OSAP. Do you deny that? I can't speak to that. The only other clearance I had was, uh, uh, a Q clearance at DOI. I'm not, I don't, I'm not concerned with your clearances. I'm concerned specifically with the question of if you were involved with and read in to a legacy UFO program before OSAP. And I asked you to, if you would deny that, is your response still, I can't speak about that. I can't speak about that. Okay. But you know, it's public knowledge to state that what clearances I had. Yeah. There are no two ways about that, but as to the programs they applied to, that's a

20:30 different story. And that's why you're getting a slow roll on some of the, uh, people coming in to testify. It's like, oh, okay. Oh, wait a minute. Unless you have this compartment and are read into it and it's currently read in, I can't talk to you, Congress. Yeah. I can't talk to you. David Grush said that, David Grush said that, Dylan Borland said that, everybody that has a knowledge in these special access programs, Congress needs to be able to hear those statements, which is a very difficult thing. That's why some of the closed door briefings haven't happened because they wouldn't be, they wouldn't progress anything. Anyway, next question. I agree. Has there, to your knowledge, been any contact at a government level with any non-human intelligence beings? Yes or no? I can't make a statement on that. Do you know? I can't make a statement on that either. Oh, that's a rough one. Okay. Jim, you had said earlier that there was

21:33 some false information that was put out and you alerted DOD, DOW to look for it. And you also have said about the leaks of some of the OSAP documents that there were attempts to track them down and get them back. Can you elaborate on either of those? Did DOD follow up and remove the false information? And did, was DIA the one that went after the leaked or publicly illegally released? Well, I don't know that they ever went after things. It's, you know, there's also the philosophy that if something leaks, don't bring attention to it. And that's why I said there was a concern that there was something in the 500-page document, roughly 500-page, that's called the 10-month report. But we just pulled them back from everyone who we thought had a copy. We didn't realize people were passing them

22:33 around. And the other thing was, what was your second question? About the false documents that have been entered onto the record, DOD. Did somebody, did they take action, remove them? In my opinion, no, they haven't. No, they haven't at all. Now, again, it may be don't rock the boat and draw attention to things, but it wasn't classified information as far as I was concerned. It was just flat-out false information that had been put into, well, you don't put it into, put on into electronic form. Yeah, you said that last time. You said every special access program has a counterintelligence officer. That's their job. You have that person either assigned to you or you bring him in, and there's a source of forged documents. Because we were talking about that. Well, I'll just tell you, George and I have had pushed on us numerous times these yet-to-be-released,

23:34 quote-unquote, Zodiac documents, an alleged program that is an alleged legacy program, which George and I never bought. When we see this information pushed on us, we're not buying it. Is that a UFO legacy program that's been claimed, or is that disinformation? I couldn't comment on that. Right. But is there disinformation out there? Plenty. I think we're clear on that one. And there was something on George's I was going to say about, oh, on the stuff where I mentioned with DOD, even with DIA, I'm going to have to say that I think it was deliberate false information put in there. Deliberate. Again, the public's going to, your listeners are going to have to weigh in on that because I don't want them to burden on you because I'll have probably a thousand

24:34 opinions. But why? What was the purpose when other things counterdicted? Is it simply confusion for the sake of confusion? That is a counterintel technique. Just to have the enemy so confused, they don't know what's going on. Well, is that what's going on with Yankee Blue? Have you heard about this? How everybody, including yourself, has been duped. So you, Dr. Lekowski, have been duped about the UFO reality. So has David Grush. So has Lou Elizondo. That it was all a ruse from the Air Force called Yankee Blue, where they put some photos up at Area 51 of saucers and started this whole wave of UFO disinformation. Do you have any knowledge of that being a disinformation campaign, obviously perpetrated on the American? No, no, I do not. But I remember in my, I remember what was a humorous incident on, done is a joke. And it clearly came across as it, on April

25:34 Fool's Day, there were photos, very good photos being passed around of a certain country having a UFO at one of their air bases. And it was shocking that this was, but it was April Fool's. People finally realized, well, wait a minute, today's April 1st. Yeah, you're going to be taking out of context there. Let's back up. You're talking about something that's obviously fake. It was on April Fool's. What I'm talking about is very serious. It wasn't very poor. It wasn't obviously fake. It was identified as fake. Identified as fake. It was a good job. Okay, but you understand the Yankee Blue narrative is that everybody's been fooled for decades with this and that that's the source of all of this UFO nonsense. But then again, there's you ran a program on this that's telling us we have a craft. So what do you think of this Yankee Blue narrative that doesn't add up, by the way?

26:38 I don't think they're claiming an extent of a program. I wouldn't say that they wouldn't do something like that that's a test case. I would and see how certain military, especially military police, respond near weapon sites. But the thing is to claim, you know, don't claim too much when you're trying to do a counterintelligence effort. Don't say it's been going on for years. Right. And everybody's been duped. Yeah, they made a mistake that it's been a decades-long shenanigan. Yeah, I think that was a mistake. You know, don't get too fancy with your fake story. Along the same lines, you know, this major newspaper published these debunking stories. That's where this fake story is. It's all made up. It's all counterintelligence by the Pentagon

27:40 and CIA. Among the things that they addressed were nuclear incidents. And Arrow went along with this. Hey, we didn't find any evidence of any kind of problems or incursions by UFOs that interfered with nuclear weapon systems or missiles. That was one of the projects that you initiated at OSAP. It was Project Northern Tier to look at those historic incidents. The claim now is that somebody just brought some EMP technology, a big bulky machine, out to the front gate of this nuclear missile base. No one seemed to have noticed it. And they are what took these nuclear weapons down. Let's see. In an ICBM base. Yeah. I mean, you'd think that the security forces would see something like that. But you did go back and look at those original incidents. You talked to counterintelligence people at AFOSI who said, you know, we didn't do all these. Now Arrow is wiping this off the maps and none of this ever happened.

28:40 You know it happened, that some of these were legit, that they were not us. And you also know that there was a more recent incident that has not been made public. Correct? Right. Recent is some time ago, but has not been made public. And that's not as long ago as 1970s. No, no, no, no. We're talking about in terms of a number of years, but not more than 20 years. I don't know when this is going to air, but George and I have been informed by multiple independent sources that the largest incursion in American history of UAP at the day we're recording happened about a month ago in Texas over a military installation. And I know you're out of it now, but have you heard of that new recent incursion that is not public yet? I haven't heard it.

29:43 Though back after I retired and was still aware of what the various programs were doing. There was heavy interest in UAPs back then. Now that had, how long have I been retired? Almost 10 years now. UAP incursions of military bases is real. You had to study them. You had high up information on them. So this idea that we're just testing an EMP back in the 60s and that shutting down nuclear weapons is, in your point, would be nonsense, correct? Nonsense. And from my point of view, it would be nonsense. If it's real, I'd be very surprised. And by the way. It's real meaning it was an EMP fake-out on everybody. You'd be surprised. I'd be very surprised if it was an EMP fake-out. And by the way, the glory days of technologies were the 60s and 70s. There were a lot of bright ideas and a lot of tests. And I can tell you, most of them didn't work out. But there was a considerable input into the

30:46 strategic defense initiative in the 80s. And surprisingly, from the 60s, they were real thinkers back then, even with their slide rules. They were real thinkers. They were very innovative. So I wouldn't doubt someone claimed there was an EMP device from the 60s. It's a good cover story. But there were a lot of fancy ideas back then that never panned out. Do you think that we have biologics of NHI? You told me that what David Grush said, tracks. He said that we have biologics that came with some of these craft or crashes. Did you ever experience? I have no knowledge, and we're only looking at the technology aspects. Whoa! Other than the health aspects to humans. Right. No, that's amazing. You just answered me that I have no knowledge. Now I have to compare all your other answers to when you just directly said, I have no

31:49 That's awesome. The thing is, to say you have knowledge about a component of a program that we've clearly listed what we studied, we're being honest that we didn't leave out the biologics. No, that was not part of our mission. That wasn't DIA's mission. There were a couple of things DIA didn't want done. They didn't want done space launches. I mean, we were requested to do that. And I said, where are we going to get the money for that? Let me ask you this, Dr. Lekatsky. You know a heck of a lot, more than any of the rest of us, and have studied this for a long time, been involved at the highest levels. Is there anybody, and I'm just kind of following up to what Jeremy was asking about has there been any contact, direct contact with non-humans. Is there anybody that knows the answer to this for sure? Where they're from? Why they're here?

32:49 How long they've been here? What their agenda might be? You know, we have a lot of different ideas. Does anybody know? I don't know. I probably couldn't answer if I did know. The fact is, you know, where you're getting so much information from me, and I've mentioned this to you before, because everyone I know in the UFO community, the experts, are getting up there in years. You know, I'm getting up there, you know, I'm getting up there, and I'm in the middle of the pack. So, unless this information is transferred over to younger people, it's going to be lost. Let me assure you, just because things can reside in electronic form forever, doesn't mean that they will. People can push the delete button very quickly. In fact, that's what I'm afraid may have happened to DIA with all of the OSAP documents. Whoa, what's this? This doesn't belong here. It did maybe a few years ago.

33:50 Delete. So, they're not answering, they're not lying when they say we can't find it, necessarily. I mean, they might be, but. Necessarily, they're not lying at all. Except for, except for they've been told exactly where they do reside on a classified server, and they currently do reside there, and they're denying it. So, that's a problem that I've navigated behind closed doors of Congress, though a lot of that was put into a place, from what I understand, and they should have access to it, but they're denying it. Well, they should, unless somebody has screwed around with the files. They were in an union, and I left them when I retired in an unusual location for them, and I asked one of my colleagues to see if she could check into it, and apparently the files had been locked up. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, I missed it. The OSAP file's separate.

34:50 I was thinking more of a lot of what George brought back from Russia. My bad. The OSAP might be hard to find. Yeah. Well, that was part of the records, our translation of them. That was electronically stored. I mean, when I, to say stored, I used to push shopping carts of paper down to be scanned in. I was one of their best customers with OSAP. You know, Arrow has done an admirable job of discrediting all kinds of UFO cases, famous incidents. They seem to take their cues from some of the more outspoken debunkers on social media platforms. They'll put out some theory, and then a couple years later, it's, oh, yeah, that's exactly what happened. The one thing you're having trouble with, though, for sure, is TIC-TAC. We're coming up on the 21st anniversary of that TIC-TAC incident, the very first case that OSAP investigated. They haven't been able to wipe that one off the map yet, but there's a lot of

35:50 implications that, oh, yeah, that was secret technology that we've been testing, and we're, it's still secret. You know, it's going to be a grand day when we finally unleash that stuff, uncork it, and use it. But here we are 21 years later. If it's our technology, it's not our technology, is it? No, it's not. I mean, I don't know that officially, but there are other things that were not discussed in the full descriptions that occurred that would have that implemented on aircraft if we had that technology. We would have had that implemented on Are you talking about- Back then. Are you talking about, someone said you talked about something like orbs associated with the TIC-TAC event? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about electronic warfare. Right. But cyber systems can detect them.

36:53 Yes. Yeah, the ability to jam, actively jam certain platforms, that kind of thing is what you're talking about? Yeah, they just weren't available back then. So the TIC-TAC is not Lockheed Martin, definitively, the TIC-TAC is not Lockheed Martin technology from 2004. Not that I'm aware of. Yeah, yeah, not that anybody's aware of. As a rocket scientist, can I ask you something? And as a propulsion expert? You're going to try. Go ahead. I'm going to try. I'm going to try, okay? No, this is simple. You can answer this. This is, I'm just curious what you think of the three-eye atlas debate that's going around and everybody, well, not everybody, one particular Harvard scientist named Avi Loeb is talking about how, you know, and I like his open-mindedness. I do, that it might have unnatural characteristics more tending towards, you know, intentional propulsion from an extraterrestrial, you know, visitation. When you look at the three-eye atlas

37:53 narrative that's being put out into the media, and as a rocket scientist and propulsion expert, do you think that is a natural comment or maybe irregular by, you know, orientation to the sun or by materials? Or do you think that is possibly some mothership coming to Earth? Just curious. My opinion is people are going to criticize me either way, but I think it's doubtful. It's almost like something we would do, Star Trek-y like, pre-Star Trek, pre-Enterprise. It's just like, really, you're going to coast the universe in a big rock? But, you know, a competing theory these days, it's popping up everywhere, is that the moon is a satellite, not a natural satellite, but a satellite. You know, crazy ideas, like you said earlier, they spread so fast. Everything just spreads fast.

38:54 So I have read what you're referring to and read a couple articles on it, and it's just like, eh. I've got the transfer of information to the younger folks is more important to me because, you know, shoot, it's 10 years since I retired. And then until I spoke with Senator Reid and George and Colum there in Las Vegas and Bob Bigelow, it took me four years just to come to a decision to write the book. So I was just saying simply, this is out of control. We've got to put down the facts. And then I realized, gee, we've got to keep on putting down the facts. That's how we put down the facts. And now people, I think, are slowly coming back to, oh, okay, these guys weren't bluffing us. This is what they really did. We didn't like, and I love those opinions. We didn't like this part of it or we didn't like that part of it because that's the

39:54 whole upcoming discussion. That was a fair-sized discussion. We can't, and we can't afford this. You know, we haven't even talked about some of the content of your new book, but this is chock-full. New insights, new book. I mean, there's a heck of a lot of stuff packed into this book. UFO cases that really have not been discussed in the public that you guys ran to ground. I mean, you really did a number and went back to the original information and witnesses and put this together. Are there any that jump out at you that you'd like to share with our audience on this program, UFO in particular? There are three cases where there was close-up observation. There was the one in Kansas where the teenagers and a police officer both took a picture of a high-altitude black triangle. And then the kids were, not kids, young

40:56 adults were very surprised of seeing a large black triangle come over the trees where they were waiting to be picked up by their parents. And that triangle suddenly backing up, which is an unusual maneuver for triangles, and then proceeding ahead in this blinking out of existence, clearly not flying off quickly. That's been seen too, just blink out of existence. And then for all of the young adults having achieved electronic countermeasure status, they were knocking out computers, creating fires uncontrollably, but still nevertheless doing that, knocking out car batteries. There was that case, but having the picture from the police officer showing a black triangle with non-B2 lighting, that was an interesting reality check.

41:59 But six witnesses saying they saw the same thing, but even they couldn't understand at their young age. Why would the military have a triangular UFO with a hundred Christmas lights on it? It didn't literally have Christmas lights, but it had what appeared to be projecting white light beams coming down that didn't project. They could clearly see and detect their eyes the photons coming down. It was shining down, but it was never hitting the ground. It was not lighting up the ground. Another one was the Georgia case. where the fellow inadvertently hit, not inadvertently, he deliberately fired at a black triangle, a million candle spotlight, and it immediately fired back a radiation beam. And he got tumors from it. That was one of our more intense medical

42:59 cases. And then the California case where mass investigators saw a craft on the ground. Those are the three that stand out for me. The giant triangle with Christmas lights. I don't know if you recall Hunt for the Skinwalker had a case very much similar to that over the ranch. It's not as big as this, but it looked like a stealth fighter with Christmas lights around it. Actual red, white, and blue lights. Yeah. This one were just white lights, but it was like having so many lights seemed to make no purpose. You said that photo is online somewhere. It's findable then. The one in Kansas is online somewhere. We have it in one of the documents, too. I don't know if I... In your appendix? No, I don't think we included it.

43:59 You can go look it up in the appendix. I actually searched some of the videos you referenced through the appendix of your book. And then the other thing is that it's in this book is other stories about paranormal stuff, in particular the ranch, and then around the ranch. I mean, your investigators have been reported before. They get in ever-expanding concentric circles around the ranch to interview regular citizens and found an amazing array of creature encounters. It's not just at the ranch. It's that whole basin out there. And then, of course, as you said earlier, there are other locations in the country where similar activity has been reported. Any paranormal thing from the ranch that you have in this book that you want to share with us? Well, it was... You know I saw something, but others have. So, I mean, that's pretty much old hat in regard to that. But when Bob Bigelow and I were going to the ranch the first time, we stopped at a

45:00 neighbor's house, immediate neighbor's, to say hello. And he said one of the many numerous orange spheres, large orange spheres, that were seen going into the cliffs, actually penetrating the rock. He came out one day, looked out the door, and saw what appeared to be a stupefied frozen cow. Not literally frozen, but staring at something. He went out the door and then slowly walked backwards because there was an orange sphere that had landed right next to his trailer home. Or it was just above the, a few inches above the ground. The ranch owner, a manager, told me about an incident she was having with a stick man, literally black stick man, who would appear in the living room, come over to the dining room table. We were all sitting around at the time when I visited and Bob visited, and just look

46:01 over people's shoulder. It had no interaction, was not frightening, other than if you saw a stick man next to you, but took no action. It just, it seemed to be curious about what are these people doing sitting around a table. And then there's the butterfly where Jeannie went into the room and she told me about this and took me to the room to show me. She said she saw a butterfly flitting toward the window and she was shocked when the window was down and the butterfly came right through the glass as if it weren't even there. Went over to a bureau, rested for a minute, then flew back in the other direction and went right through the glass. Now, wouldn't you like to understand that from a military point of view? You could just walk right, you don't have to go through the front door shooting, you just walk right through the wall anywhere. Well, that was the case she pointed out.

47:02 So many strange things at the ranch and so many that haven't been described yet. And so many that happened back in Maryland and Virginia from the people who went out there. You had your experience at the ranch the very first time you visited. Can you tell us whether it's followed you? Did something attach to you and is still bopping around? To the severity no one else that everyone else had? No, no. And any encounters which I will describe in the future have been mild to, I wouldn't say pleasant, it's just been mild. It's just a neutrality to it. Give me one hint. I had a firm, no way anyone could pull this off as a counterintelligence operation. My own man in black sighting, but not a sighting of a person, but clearly, clearly a

48:04 strange event. And this was during Kona Blue, not during OSCEF. Everything else seemed to happen right after OSCEF. But there were a lot of things happening in closing down the project that I put in the book. Well, describe the man in black sighting yourself, kind of like that. Can you just describe it to us? Yeah, I could without the details yet. It was basically, there's a woman doing something that's quite unusual on the express trains coming out of Union Station. I took every day home, and sometimes I'd take him home early. So you couldn't be sure what car I was in or where I would be sitting. I just always had to ask conductors if I left home to go do OSCEF work at home early. So I got on the train, went not to necessarily a normal seating, but where I

49:04 could get off quickly. The train stops at my location for a minute and a half. And there's this woman sitting next to me reading a newspaper, which is weird in itself. People don't, it was a full-blown newspaper. I couldn't see what it was, who was having it. But she kept swinging her arm out, like to draw my attention. I was afraid I was going to get smacked in the face. As people do sometimes with, because I'm sitting with her facing toward the rear of the car, right next to her. So I look over, and, you know, I might as well go ahead. I'll put this officially in a book in the future. I look over, and there's a man in black on a full blank page. A traditional, typical, always illustrated this way, man in black, black suit, white shirt, black shoes and tie, shiny black shoes in

50:05 the picture, and a black hat. Who in Washington wears a black hat like that? And it had two words, two words below him, join us. Take a look. I'd say, yeah, where do I sign up? Well, you know, I just was staring, and I didn't want to. You know how it is when you're in a subway or in a train. People don't seem to talk to each other much, unless they know the person. Except for the Friday night party train. I rode on that one time, and I couldn't believe it was true. I just, I didn't know they allowed so much liquor on a train. I mean, you know, I just, people had no problem breaking open beer bottles. It was like, this truly is the rumored party train. But it was nothing like that.

51:07 There was nothing like that. Where exactly is the rumored party train? No, I'm just kidding. Friday nights from Union Station. Okay, that's good to know. Hey, a couple things you said last time, and people have asked me about this, and I don't know the answer, but your whole book this time really opened up a lot about the shape of UFOs. You went through a whole variety from pyramid to anamorphic to like, you know, blocks, squares, cubes, spheres, everything. You said that at the time you were not willing to reveal your thoughts on this, but now that you've written the book on this, the study of the UFO shape and why you studied shape, I understand. It was to get an advantage. You said there's likely a reason for the differentials in shapes of UFOs observed over the decades, you know, would it be for function, you know, operational intent, or would it be representative of like different NHI groups, or would it just be for human confusion? Can you finally tell us your idea of why we're

52:10 seeing so many shapes of UAP over the decades? Well, you hit on it for human confusion, because that's certainly what it's doing. But I think the, again, I have to defer to Kona Blue as for the explanation. I would say, for example, you just mentioned the, what's the proper math term for an elongated rectangle? That's what was seen on the ground in California by one of our contract employees. He was using night vision, but he didn't necessarily need it. You could see reflection from the road from cars passing by. Oh, my gosh, there's something landed here. And he also saw a, I'll use the term, occupant, pilot, I don't know what to refer to it, but

53:12 whatever it was, humanoid shape and struggling to move forward, almost like the gravity rings, just too much for it. But, you know, that's what makes that particular location, I think George knows that, of interest. So why are all these shapes? What's your theory? I don't know. Why so? It's like, it's equivalent, unless they're in a group, it's equivalent to having a different car coming down the road that you observe all the time. Yeah, there's a lot of makes and models, but SUVs look like SUVs. That's one of the boring parts of them. Right. I don't know. It's, I guess one day we'll find out, and as for functional purpose, why a triangle? There should be, and I wanted to look into that, a rather difficult stability problem.

54:13 But, I mean, especially moving from horizontal flight into a cartwheel, what would that take? You've got to go to three months to find out. I don't know. Yes. So I can't really answer you, but there's been some strange occurrences of craft and so different. One of the main headlines and goals of the ASAP program was material science, studying materials. It's maybe not the sexiest part of the study, but perhaps the most important in the long run. And in this book, you have some analysis of material samples that were collected from alleged crash sites, some non-human technology. And hopefully, I think the intent was, in the long run, can we make materials that rival these that would somehow represent a breakthrough in what our machines can do? Oh, I think we're moving ahead in that all the time, whether or not we have recovered

55:15 craft or not. I mean, we're moving ahead on that all the time. But I think there are human limitations to what, say, a fighter could perform at that material science may not be able to solve because the weak part is the human body. The contractor for the program that you ran, Mr. Bigelow, authorized me to say something that we've known for a long time about ASAP, is that there were high-level discussions with a well-known defense contractor to obtain some materials of unknown origin that they had been stashing for a long time. Went back and forth. He gave me the green light to go ahead and say something about it to Congress. And it was a quid pro quo sort of a discussion. Is there anything you could add to that? I mean, you were obviously privy to those discussions. And do you think you could have learned something hugely important if the transfer

56:18 of that material had been allowed to happen? I think the back and forth was going to yield something even more important than that. But I can't get into that. There was a lot being discussed. But I can tell you, I was on our classified phone system with certain individuals. And those discussions were serious and they were real. Let me remind you, you've already said this. You've already said with James Ryder, now deceased in your... I don't think I said that. No, he didn't say it. No, I wasn't the one that said it. This isn't in your book? Well, eventually, since it was out already, we were able... Yeah, okay, so crash retrieval materials from the 1950s and other historical operations. Does that... I don't know about them being that old.

57:23 Okay. But I was more concerned about the opposite exchange. Really concerned. I felt... I felt the people who were on the other end of the phone were going to get the better part of the deal, ultimately. And that... To be cautious about what... You know, I guess sometimes... I don't know if engineers and physicists do this, but when you think you've found the answer to something, you're all too ready to move on. You know, been there, done that. And ready to move on. And I don't agree with that. I think there's a lot to learn if you had a piece of real material. What other applications could be used?

58:23 Is it part of the propulsion system? Part of the environment system? There's a lot to learn. And I think there was an attitude of... And maybe that was one of the reasons for how things evolved was... Been there, done that. No need to look a second or third or fourth time. Let's move on to something else. Some other aspect. I think it was something novel. I think you always should repeat and repeat and see what other uses are good for. You had shared with me when we talked a few days ago about surveillance of OSAP and Bigelow Aerospace Bass. Yes. During the time the program was underway. Not only at Bass offices in Las Vegas, but at the ranch. It looked like somebody was spying on you. Can you elaborate on that? Is it foreign? There were...

59:24 Oh, I don't know. It could have been foreign. There were, you know, internet claims that there were Russian and Chinese agents moving around in the area. We didn't follow that up. Our guard force was there to protect the ranch. You know, don't let little remote control cars come scooting into the ranch and scooting out. Things like that. UAVs come in and out. Of course, back 15 years ago, UAVs weren't really a thing unless you had a fair amount of money. Our guard force was more into that. But unusual frequencies were picked up, unusual evidence of vehicles being tampered with the transmitting phones back into Las Vegas.

1:00:24 That was a classic. One of those phones made its way to my office as a display piece, and I didn't bring it there. Explain that for the layperson. What do you mean? Like, what happened? Transmitting phones? A phone was dead. I ran... The first thing I did was realize something's going on here, and so we better really wrap up protection around the ranch. So I requested by a recognized firm by the intelligence community to come in and do an electronic sweep of Las Vegas and the ranch. And in Las Vegas, and this might have been just before the contract, three transmitting phones were picked up in office spaces, in meeting spaces. Let me be more clear about that, where there have been group meeting. Transmission range was approximately one to

1:01:27 two kilometers at the most. These were hardwired phones? Oh, yeah. They were standard. In this case, they happened to be Chinese-made phones. Okay, so somebody bugged your office meetings for us. Yes. It could have been against Bigelow Aerospace. It could have been against Bass. We don't know. But DIA was informed and were a bit perturbed, but we brought the phones in, and they were happy to transmit them over to the appropriate authorities. We had regular visits from the FBI to tell us what the current danger is, both in Las Vegas and at the ranch. So we never traced down, you know, the source of the signals. In fact, I don't think they would have if they could have up at the ranch, but they

1:02:27 were having difficulties, whether they were being—countermeasures were being employed or what. I'm not sure, but also there were attempts at Bass to—you can only describe it as steel portions of the database. Now, again, why, I don't know, but it was a for sure, and it was, this is important, don't do that type of warnings. Well, you know how warnings are with people. They think they can get away with everything. Well, they couldn't, but the end result was I wanted everyone to have the SCI clearance who was management and was a critical employee and secret level below them. And we processed the clearance because there was clearly activity going on. Well, I'm still clueless as to why.

1:03:29 What was so important? Well, let me ask it this way. You know, we've had these discussions before, and certainly with Senator Reid. He's stated publicly several times that he believed that the Russians and the Chinese and maybe other nations, adversary nations, were trying to do the same thing we're doing, is recover this technology, figure it out, see if we could reverse engineer it, and build our own. And there's a race for the technology because it's a world-beater, if you could duplicate it. That is still the case. And I'm just wondering, how do you separate national security concerns and still make some of this public? I mean, it's as your friend Jay Stratton has said, you can't tell your friends without telling your enemies. And, you know, the race is still on, I would assume. And it makes it really difficult to go ahead and level with the public what you know without crossing that line. Well, I agree with it's still on.

1:04:29 I don't know how. That's for people, the younger people, to figure out. How do you balance it? Because for me, I'm out of it now in regard to participating, so I can't advise anybody. But I can state it's going to be a very difficult job. If the breakthrough technology is as dramatic as it appears, it's going to be very – I don't think you're going to be seeing this in the next airliner design. So maybe you should. Maybe that's true, your statements about it should be released. It's in the best interest of the public. But Jay's comment, too, is, you know, whoever breaks through – I'm sure the Russians wouldn't tell us, but, you know, having a secret technology that's a world-beater and you're not able to sell it commercially, well, there goes all your profit. So I think that you're going to have

1:05:31 pressure from the – you would think it would be against disclosure of this technology by the aerospace companies, but it's to their interest to disclose it. But others are going to have to figure out that ahead. I don't see anything immediate coming along that way. Jeremy, are we about there? Jim, is there anything else you want to get into about this book? No, I was able to say my piece. I hope people believe it. And it's with my best intentions. I'm trying to have disclosure, and everything's coming out from the books they've paid for the material. And I'm, you know, I only am the condenser of the material and the organizer, mainly the organizer. More to follow. You hear people say in UFO world, give us

1:06:33 the data. Give us the truth. We want the evidence. You wrote a whole book about physical data and physical characteristics of UFOs and the impressions they leave on the environment and what their size is, all that information. I'm not sure that many people paid attention to it. You now have all these cases in this book, new insights. Again, do they really want the data or they would just somebody, they want somebody to give it a condensed version on a silver platter? Well, that may be the answer, but it's not the answer for a certain subset. It's that subset that I'm interested in. The young people, the middle-aged people, one day who are going to have the clearances, one day are going to look at subcomponents, who one day will have the medical degree and be able to be brought in on, well, like, you know, Jeremy's recovered bodies. I know nothing about that right now, but we need, you know, we need those people.

1:07:36 Initial revelations was a tough read, I know that, but you have to really understand technology is tough and it may be too tough. You need to look at it from a real perspective. Now, to create a levitating craft that can be used for commercial purposes, we should certainly invest in that. For an interstellar starship, at this point in my life, I don't know if we're going to ever see an interstellar starship other than on the movie screen. Let me tell you, though. Whoa, does that spin people up? And they just, they want to believe. I like how you said Jeremy's recovered bodies, and I'd like to end the episode on that, but we're not going to do that. Instead, final question for you. A lot of people have been asking me this. Dave, from your last interview about, you know, are NHI benevolent?

1:08:36 We talked a little bit about this from your personal understanding and knowledge. You also kind of have stated that the technology itself behind UAP, it might not just fly them, that it may control us in some way. You said this very enigmatic statement. If full human capabilities were known to us right now, the phenomenon is not something that we need to fear. Our capabilities have never been fully revealed, and we're still learning. Okay, but what does that statement mean is what people have been asking me? We need to get into that. But that's where, right now, the only thing I can get into is the public. Everyone is going to be able to participate in that. Now, not everybody is going to... Yes. Everyone. Can't tell you that yet. Well, is something coming that we don't know

1:09:37 about? There's a huge consciousness shift that everybody's psychic. Like, what are you saying? No, I'm not saying anything more. I'm saying that people... I don't think people need to fear anything. If they needed to fear something, it would have occurred already. Okay, but you just said a more enigmatic statement when we tried to clarify your previous enigmatic statement. So, what do you mean we're all going to be able to participate one day in that statement of, like, full potentiality? Oh, I meant in Kona Blue aspects. You're not going to be yet. We need to define what is in Kona Blue. And let me tell you, it's much more than going and getting what some have described as 60-year-old parts. No, it's much more than that. And I can say I know what the exchange

1:10:37 parameters were, and I know what was promised on all sides. And, I mean, there was also the money side. Hold on. The exchange parameters within Kona Blue about all humanity being able to participate in human potential. What are we talking about? I'm doing it deliberately. This is Jim Lekatsky's countermeasures. I'm getting all to, you know, I am, I am. You're a professional. Think of my, not only in that, but think of my philosophy of, it's like you're being, you've seen people lugging these around at college, a calculus analytic geometry textbook, which now they've even tried to stuff in differential equations and matrix algebra. The things are huge. I am convinced you can't swallow that much. You've got to take it bit by bit. And, you know, I'm sorry the books cost what they cost.

1:11:38 That's why there's the free Kindle portion of it if you belong to Kindle. I don't think people care what the books cost. It's okay. We understand. Oh, I think they do. Okay, but it doesn't matter to me. You organize the information. You obviously have a career. You have a pension. You're okay. We know you're not doing this for the money. What I want to know is what did you mean by that statement? That if full human capabilities were known to us right now, the phenomenon is not something that we need to fear. What does that mean? Exactly what it says. You're going to have to go to blank, the black screen. So that we have humans have potentials to unrealized. Completely unrealized. And when you said some, Jeremy, I don't know if you said some people have potential. No, everyone. Everyone has potential.

1:12:39 Right. Does this relate to non-human intelligence? Is that somehow what you're talking about? No, but there could be a portion of it. Well, you're saying we don't have to fear the phenomenon if we've realized our... Nothing would have happened. I mean, this isn't a science fiction show where there's a creature crawling in your mouth or something. This is, you know, forget all that nonsense. It's nothing to fear that people have been led to believe. It's... And every... Your government has everything under control. Oh, I'm just... I'm throwing you that in to rile you off. No, that is just... I'm saying that to fool... To just to fool with you. No, really. That's what my personal belief comes from my faith and it comes from observation.

1:13:39 Okay, fair enough. People shouldn't put... People shouldn't blindly believe what they read and hear on the internet. Don't do that. But about this program or other things, just don't do that because you present logical information. And if people can poo-poo it and people can embrace it, but they ought to read it, understand it, view it, and so does George, too. Here's the book, New Insights. It's a terrific book. It's chock full of really good information. UFO cases, things on the ranch, strange creatures, insight into government programs. I hope people will check it out and I hope there's much more to come. Dr. James Lekaski, thanks for joining us. Thank you very much. Yeah, I really appreciate it. It's my job to push you as a friend. It's my job to push you. I understand your boundaries and I respect that, but I'm not doing my job if I don't ask you the questions people want. Oh, of course.

1:14:39 I understand that. Yeah, George and I are here and we get to talk with you a short amount of time. Really do appreciate it. By the way, I loved your book. I know you're dumbing it down for the audience, but in your book... No, not really. No, no. Well, I'm dumbing it down whenever I talk about it, but check it out. I'm just saying when I talk about it, it's not as smart as the book, but in your book, man, I'm a nuts and bolts kind of guy. When I'm reading about the propulsion methods and the kind of connectivity between mind and the physical mechanics and why you're studying these things, it was truly fascinating reading this book, Jim. Thank you so much. Dave, thank you very much. Okay. Talk to you soon, Jim.