Grant Best, Air Force Security Forces: Vandenberg UAP eye-witness encounters

0:00 Hey everyone, welcome back. In this episode, Jeff and I are speaking to Grant Best, a military police officer and Air Force veteran who began his career babysitting the U-2 spy plane and the SR-71 Blackbird, had deployments in Iraq and various other exciting places, and had a seven-year stint at Vandenberg Air Force Base, where he tangled with a number of extraordinary events, from dealing with the Aryan Brotherhood to chasing boogeymen in the middle of the night, riding horseback around rockets, and having a first-hand eyewitness encounter with a football stadium-sized UAP, which landed on a disused

1:02 flight line, causing absolute chaos. Grant is a great guy, I'm sure you'll enjoy this, so let's get straight into it. So I guess, first of all then, what made you want to be a cop? Because I know you went into the whole fishing game thing, but if we start at the beginning, what kind of a guy wants to do that for a lifetime? I don't know, when I was a little kid, I remember being real little, 12, maybe even littler than that. Eight or nine, maybe. We lived out in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma, and we used to just play the typical little boy game of army, you know what I mean? We had a bunch of land that I could just roam all over, so my friends would come, or my cousins, or whoever. We would start at one end of their property, and we had a flag in the middle, pretty much like capture the flag, but we used BB guns, and so you really knew if you got shot,

2:03 because you squealed. So it all kind of started with that, and then my dad had some friends that were Oklahoma City policemen, and then he had a really good friend that was a chief mass sergeant for the security forces out at Tinker in Oklahoma, and it all just, I mean, it all just came together, and by my freshman year, everybody was like trying to get ready for college. I already knew what I was going to do. I was going to join the Air Force and be a cop, so yeah, that's just how it kind of came about. And what year did you join up? I joined December 4th, 1996. Yeah, and I got out in, well, I did two. I got out, and then they brought me back because of maining issues, and even though I was over my 10 years, they just kind of like, hey, will you do it? And at that point in my life,

3:04 I was kind of like, just going to school, so I was like, yeah, I'll do that. So technically, I got out in, somewhere in 2014. I don't remember the actual month. Right, and so were you at Vandenberg first of all, then, or did you try some other places first? My first base was Beale Air Force Base in Northern California, where we had the U-2s and the SR-71 when I got there. And then like six, seven months later after I got there is when they retired or moved the SR-71 from the Air Force to the NASA. So we were there for the last flight of the SR-71. And then from there, I got stationed at Howard Air Force Base in Panama. And I was there for the shutdown. That's right, you were in Panama. Yeah, I was there for the shutdown, the handover back to the Panamanians. And then because of the treaty.

4:07 And then from there, I went to Altus Air Force Base. I was there for like, for 9-11. I was actually working the desk when 9-11 had. I was working the police desk when, and we didn't, and they didn't even let me go home for like four days. I was stuck on the desk because we had to use everybody we had. And I was stuck up over the desk for four days. And then on the fourth day, they finally said, hey, you can go home, take a shower, grab something, eat and get back. So and then I was there for another two weeks. And then from there, I went to Vandenberg. And that would have been right after 9-11. Like, I think it was three or four months after 9-11, they sent me to Vandenberg. And I was there till 08. Yeah. I remember when you showed up and I think Chaz and everybody showed up around the same time. like in that right before September 11th,

5:09 you know, in that year leading up and then it happened. Yeah. And changed the Air Force forever. It changed, I guess, the world forever. That's an interesting question, man. I mean, in your line of work, what, what was that change like for you guys? I mean, I know it changed everybody echoed all the way around the world, but what was it like for somebody in law enforcement? It was big. It turned our whole everything we knew upside down. We went from pretty much before 9-11. The military was, I mean, you did little TDYs here and there, you know, like 90-day, 60-day TDYs. You know, they were like little vacations, you know, honestly, you know, to Kuwait. Usually all mine were to Kuwait then, like Kuwaiti, all Kuwait back before 9-11. And then when, and then

6:09 the job itself was fun. Like, I would have done it forever. Everybody was pretty laid back before 9-11. It was a, it was a good time to be in the military, I think. I mean, Jeff was in quite a, what, a couple years, three or four years before I was, right? 96? Yeah. Yeah, I came in 93. Yeah. So he was right there in the, the, the good prime, you know, the good times. And then 9-11 came and it just turned into deployment, no time off. And then everybody got, I don't know, it just seems like it all just spiraled out of control after that. It was just, it was just, everybody just changed. I don't know. I mean, it's hard to explain unless you're just in it. It was just, it became a whole different atmosphere. And what was that like for you then, Jeff? Yeah. It was the same. Um, I saw the ramifications of the Patriot Act early and saw how bad

7:13 that was going to get. And, um, I think I remember Grant and I standing on the desk when all that was unfolding like a few days after the attack and maybe a few weeks after, and it was on the news and they were saying, oh, we're going to be out of, we're going to go in and have this done in like 90 days. And, and Grant like looked at me, he's like, you believe that? And I'm like, no, we never left from the first war. We've been deploying since 91. You know, we, we never left the war. That war never kind of ended. It wasn't high intensity. I'm like, but this is going to be more of that forever. And we were right. You know, we saw this psychological toll about, you know, Vandenberg had a heavy deployment mission and we were attached to the 820th Air Expeditionary Force. And that was sort of a

8:14 new unit that they had spun up that was dedicated to combat deployments. That's all they did was train to do combat operations, convoys. And, um, a bunch of our friends actually went to the 820th. That was in Moody, Georgia? Yeah, Georgia. I believe so. Yeah. That sounds right. And, uh, because we were attached to that unit. And, um, so they would come out and do training with us. And then a bunch of our people went permanently to the 820th. And that's all they did was just deploy endlessly. That was their only job. They didn't do like typical law enforcement. They didn't do security work. They just went to Afghanistan and Iraq and all over, you know. Yeah. And I know some of them went through like army training too, like ranger school, air assault school and stuff like that. So that was one good thing. A lot of the good training opened up for us, you know, because used to be back in the day, we could only get like five slots for like ranger school

9:17 or air assault or whatever. And that opened up a lot. So a lot of our friends got all this cool, you know, hardcore training. And then they got deployed endlessly. Yeah. It's like, like you've told me before though. I mean, if you're guarding a base somewhere, you need a bit more than a nine mil and, and a steely attitude to, to deal with what, what's coming at you. But, but I, I, I know from Vandenberg, you went into, to fishing game. Is that, is that right? So how did that come about? And what was that like? Uh, well, I was on regular flight until then I did, I deployed to Iraq in 03. Yeah, I think it was 03, October 03 and, uh, or 04. No, it was 03. And, um, when I got back, um, the flight was all kind of broke up that I was in the, the, the, the group that I was with

10:19 before I left was all kind of broke up then. And then there were some people that left fishing game and I just kind of said, Hey, I'd like to try that out. And there was a tech Sergeant Ruiz who actually lives right. Not far from me now in Colorado. Yeah. He lives in Aurora. Right. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, he was like, I'm gonna put you in for fishing game and all that. I was like, what is that? He goes, well, he kind of explained it. Then I got with this, uh, another guy named Sergeant Moses. I don't know if, yeah, he just, I think he was, yeah, he was still in when I got there. Yeah. He's still there. And, uh, and then I just, I went and talked to him and I did some, cause you got to ride horses too. You had to really know like horsemanship and you know, and stuff like that. And they, I knew what I was doing, I guess. And they said, here, you can be a game warden. So I did that for man from

11:19 Oh four to Oh eight, four years of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, uh, I, I believe Vandenberg air force base is the only military unit in the entire us military with horse patrol. So we had military police horses. Yeah. We had our own stables and. Well, I was in, we had two, it was Vandenberg and Arkansas had one, but I'm not sure if they still have their horse patrol or not still or not. Yeah. So that was cool. That was cool work because we had all those beaches and all the, the mountains to patrol. And so yeah, Grant, Grant would let me go down and I would help clean the stables and take care of the horses and help him shovel all the shit. And then we, I would get to go riding with him. So it'd be, it was so cool, man. It's us in uniform geared out with guns on our hip

12:19 riding the range, man. It was cool. All a hundred and hundred thousand acres. Yeah. Wow. I can imagine that that caused a little bit of jealousy back at the barracks when these guys, you know, I don't take papers and watching you guys riding horses around. Nobody wanted to take care of the horses. No. And they didn't want to work the hours. We worked some crazy hours. It was only, sometimes it would be me only working. I'd have the whole base that I'd have to patrol and respond to as a game warden. And you're talking about a hundred thousand acres. It stretched from Pismo to, was it Pismo? Yeah. Pismo to Lake Halama Beach, which is like 38 miles of just coastline. Yeah. And then that's the thing. There's hunting all year. So you

13:21 could hunt pig and wild boar. And, you know, he would have to go out and help tag the animals and do all that. Then he had all the administration to do. And then we had crimes. We had all kinds of hunting violations. You know, remember the horses you guys had to rescue? Yeah. Well, we're abusing horses and well, it's all kind of. Yeah. Yeah. We did a lot of search and search for the escaped convicts. They would call us the prison from the federal prison and call us when they got escaped convicts and we get on horses and go search for them in the middle of the night. And then toward the end, we would use, we would use horses, but it was getting into more drones because of the terrain. The terrain there was rough. Yeah. Dangerous, treacherous terrain. Yeah. And you had everything from mountain lines, the bears, everything out there. So,

14:21 I mean, it was, it was legit, like, wild. Wild. Wild country out there, man. Yeah. There were vehicles, like, up in the mountains. There's these narrow, like, canyon roads, and you would see a vehicle like 300 feet down this ravine. Yeah. They're like, did anybody, like, ever check on that? Like, well, it took us like a year to figure out how to get down there. There was one guy that lived down there for a little bit. Yeah, we would find camps. It was out through choice, or did he just end up down there and couldn't get out? Maybe a combination. So what kind of stories would have, have you got from that time, man? Because that must have been so unique. You know, there must have been some cool experiences. Yeah, like the Aryan Brotherhood that

15:23 decided to put a camp on our, because we had, it was a weird base. I don't even know how to explain it. Yeah. We patrolled Highway 1, which the, the regular base cops did as well. The military, SPS or SS. They, um, they patrolled, like, Highway 1, all the civilian, and could give federal match street tickets, um, out for, and they'd have to go to federal court for these tickets. Same thing with game warrants. If we wrote a civilian a ticket, they went to federal court for anything that we wrote. So, but we also had, like, where civilians could use the base for certain activities, and they could pay, go camp. It was like $25 a night to camp. I mean, it was a pretty good deal. It was a, but military police and game wardens, conservation officers, they patrolled the area and enforced the laws. Well, some people, I think, just thought it

16:25 was just free camping. State, yeah, state. Yeah, they didn't really know. And, yeah, so one time, we had an Aryan brotherhood. They ended up showing up out there, and they put, they actually put nooses everywhere. Like, I mean, it was like, they thought, I guess they thought they were just gonna live there. They were set up. They had a compound cooking. All the home comforts with a, they were cooking meth in there. They were cooking meth. So, I go by there a couple times, you know, like, over the week, I went by there, and I saw them, and I was like, man, some, there's something weird about that place. So, I got closer, and I was like, oh. And then, and then, in the middle of the night, we get a call out there that they're shooting guns off, and, or something, they were doing something. And, and, I was on duty alone that time as a game warden. So, they were like, hey, will

17:26 you go check it out? I'm like, yeah, but, I think, someone was already rolling. Yeah, I was out there. I was already heading out that way. Yeah, and Cali was out there. Yeah, and I get out there, and I walk up to the door. I was the first one there. Didn't even wait for backup for some reason. I don't know what I was doing. And I was like, hey, knocked on the door, and these, I mean, legit skinheads, tattoos all over their heads, like swastikas. We're like, what do you want? And I'm sitting there in, like, military uniform and everything, and I was like, you guys need to leave. Like, you can't have all this stuff. They're like, yeah, okay. And they closed the door, and I was like, all right. So, I went back, waited for backup, and then, actually, OSI, everybody showed up. It was like a big deal. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they ended up with meth and all kinds of stuff. And then you catch people out, like, doing the dirty business a lot. You know, people go think they're hiding off base somewhere

18:27 to go have an affair. And here comes Grant rolling up, or a game warden, or a cop rolling up. Yeah. And we, I really didn't do anything. You told them, I just make them think I was. But, yeah. Saw a lot of stuff out there, Vandenberg, though, too. That was the weird, I don't know. I don't know what it was. No other base did I see all that stuff except it. But, you know, again, I wasn't really, honestly, who knows what I've seen at other bases. I wasn't in tune with it until I met Jeff, really. I mean, that's why I was seeing all kinds of stuff and didn't realize it, you know. So. Yeah. Well, I mean, starting your career looking after the Blackbird and the U2, like, I can see how that would kind of set the foundation for crazy stuff. But it must have been such a mad mix of absolute wilderness and then rockets and people everywhere.

19:29 Yeah. It was, God, it was just different. I don't even know how. Because we even had a huge public beach that was, we had jurisdiction. Anybody could just drive up, park, and get on the beach. So it was just this weird, we had these ultra top secret sites. And then, like, a quarter mile away, there's, like, a thousand people on the beach. Yeah. It was just weird. Yeah, I mean, you can see all the launch facilities. They're not hidden. Yeah. I mean, did you get many people out with, like, super long lenses or fishing boats with 17 radars on top or anything weird like that that you guys were aware of? Yeah, we had a helicopter that would, we had a helicopter unit out there that, I think it was the only helicopter, Air Force helicopter crew, I think. I'm pretty sure they're the only Air Force helicopter crew. And their whole mission was to, you know, guard against onlookers off the coast.

20:31 And they did a lot of search and rescue of the ships out in the ocean, like, Chinese. They've had to go out there before to get, like, Chinese boats that someone had a heart attack to take to, you know, the hospital or whatever. They'd have a heart attack or a medical emergency or whatever. Yeah. And that, you know, so it was a, it was like a very secured base. I'll just say that. Yeah. And then there was another mission that they would bring in, well, shit, I can't scratch that. And there was other stuff, too. Yeah. Well, they brought in, when they started doing all the, the satellites for DirecTV. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember that being a big thing. And then all the movies that got shot out there. They're shooting movies on the base. Oh, yeah. Pirates of the Caribbean. One of those was filmed out there. And then there was another movie. It was right before I got there. It was the girl from the, and you remember

21:32 the gate guard said something to her, tried to hit on her. Yeah. Rosario Dawson. Was it Rosario? She was, they did a movie about OSI. She was an OSI agent. I don't even know the movie she was doing. I just know that she was out there. It was a girl from, oh, no, it was, I'm thinking of the wrong movie. That one was in L.A. Airbus. Yeah. It's Saved by the Bell or something, the actress. She was from the, the, the 19, where it was filmed in, like, it was a 90s show, but it was filmed like it was in the 50s. And it had a little black-haired girl. I know. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, our buddy, buddy, buddy asked her, asked her out at the main gate and got in trouble. No. Oh, fair play. She was coming, coming on to film a movie. But that's crazy if, like, if there's just

22:33 people, I mean, how do you enforce security when there's such a wide variety? I mean, filming a movie, there'd be so much kit and tech rolling in. It must have been a nightmare to keep security stuff secret. We would block off the roads. I mean, we would just block off the roads and beach access. Because, I mean, no one could get on the base unless they came to a gate. Or if they came to the back way, they'd have to hike. And we had people, I mean, we always had people posted somewhere. So they couldn't really. I mean, it was a secure spot for them, honestly. Yeah. Well, you guys have touched on some kind of weird stuff that used to go on at the base as well, you know, of various types. So, like, do either of you want to dig into any of that a little bit? Well, I'm just going to start off because he was there before me. So he could probably, like, he probably knows the buildup to all this. I kind of got there and I was like, is this

23:34 normal to see all this stuff? Yeah. Well, so that, all right, here's where I'll start. So when I showed up to Vandenberg, I came from Japan. And I had already had one strange experience that I've talked about. I saw this blue orb. Other people saw it dancing around an area. So I'd already seen one thing. And I get to Vandenberg and I'm the new guy. I'm meeting everybody. I'm going to parties and getting to know everyone. And I keep hearing all these weird stories about strange lights and shadowy figures and all these supernatural events. Right. And I don't really know what to make of it. But then there's this one story that everybody that I'm working with keeps telling me. And it's about this weird tale of an Air Force cop that has, he got into trouble and,

24:35 like, lost his mind. He had a mental breakdown. And he went rogue. And he, like, was getting court-martialed, going to be put in jail. And he escaped. And was loose on the base. And had been living off the land like a hermit, like a wild man, for years. And all these people are telling me a story. Oh, we've seen him at night. And one time he jumped over our truck. And, you know, he was stealing stuff out of the back of our truck. And it sounds like this boogeyman story. Right. And then on top of that, there's all these supernatural ghost stories that are telling me, like, if you go to this area, you know, you'll see apparitions. If you go here, you'll hear spooky, like, drumming and chanting at night. And I'm like, okay, whatever. But then, here's the weird thing. The boogeyman story over, like, the next year starts to come true. Like, I'm hearing real, like, it's happening

25:36 while I'm on duty. Like, they're chasing a boogeyman. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, that wasn't, there's something going on. Right. I didn't know if the whole legend was real. It was a cop that went crazy. It was out, like, sneaking around our areas. But long story short, over a period of a few years, it ends up that was 100% true story. So, that was the weird, like, interplay. Like, you're hearing these stories from people, and you don't know who's bullshitting you or telling ghost stories. And then they start to resolve. And you're like, okay, that was not an urban legend. That was a real tragic event that I've watched play out over, like, three years. And then the UFO stuff, too. So, you know, you go out on duty, and you're sitting in a truck on security. One night, and you're with another person, and you're talking, and it gets quiet, and then you hear drumming all around your trunk.

26:36 You know, and it's like, where's it coming? And then you crack your window, and you can hear it. And they can hear it, you know, and so, and all these things are unexplained, right? They could be somebody pranking us, could be another patrol. But none of that ever, like, panned out. Like, all the jokes we ever played, and we played elaborate jokes on each other. They always panned out. Like, everybody found out it was a joke, right? Yeah, it's not really a good joke. Yeah, it's like, so, it's a spooky place, man. And then UFO show up. You know? And then we would have these anomalous type, reoccurring things would happen. So, the most well-known among, like, the Bravo flight people was the light pools at the southern gate. We had these big steel light pools, like 40-foot

27:37 tall light pools. And they would just start to rock uncontrollably, out of nowhere. And it was strange, because there was many of these pools, but only, like, one would be doing it, or two, or maybe three. And then, I mean, they would be causing, like, a ton of noise. Yeah. And then they would just stop on a dime. And they would, this would happen in front of multiple people. We're on duty. This is getting called in on the radio. People are freaked out. They're, like, calling in patrols, like, come down here. It's happening. You know? And that was a reoccurring thing. And, you know, we would try to come up with a logical explanation, because it was near train tracks. And the train station was only, you know, about a mile and a half away, on and on. But none of it explained sufficiently, like, why is one pole rocking like this?

28:41 I'm talking violently rocking. And there's a big, like, 10, 12-inch steel pole. And then it would just stop. Was it the same poles that would rock each time? Or, like, would it be different ones? It's random. Yeah. There was one pole right near the gate shack that did it the most. You know, it was just, like, right, it was, there was a concrete island in the middle of the street for the gate shack, the armored shack. And I think it was the pole directly in that concrete island, or right near it, that would just start going haywire. And then one, you know, 40 feet away would do it, and another one 25 feet away in another direction would, they'd all be going different directions. And then they would just have stopped. It was like that scene from Close Encounters at the railroad tracks, where everything's. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I never associated those types of events

29:42 with the UAP until, like, in the last couple years, I'm thinking, oh, maybe there was a UFO hovering over the gate shack in the fog, and that's why things are moving. Or maybe it's something completely prosaic, right? Either way, you're operating in this spooky, weird environment where, you know, you're just standing there having a cigarette, and then these poles are, there's a giant flying triangle over your head, or, you know, a football field-sized UFO showing up in broad daylight, and on and on, right? Like, this is a pattern at that base. There was a lot of energy, a lot of energy. And then, you know, you couple all the energy at that base, which I don't know if there was something under the ground there. And also, you know, people need to realize that Vandenberg Air Force Base was named after General Vandenberg, who was one of the

30:43 leading guys in the UFOs back in the 50s. Yeah, he's the one that shut it all down. He's the one that shut it all down in the 50s. Yeah. 50s and 60s. I just learned that, by the way. I didn't. That's good. That's good data. So, what's the deal with him, then? What do you know about him? So, he was the top Air Force guy at the end of, like, through the 60s. And, basically, he is the one that they generated, I forget the name of the report, but it was a scientific report generated by the Department of Energy. The Department of the Air Force said, this is a problem. This is a real phenomenon. You know, incredible, reliable observers are reporting on it. And, basically, he said that there's a – the report lacked scientific rigor. And he just said, we need to just close the

31:43 book on this. It's a waste of time. It was something commissioned, wasn't it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Roswell Commission. I'm sure people are watching us shouting it at the TV. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know. I've heard of that before. But, yeah, because that's, I think, when they got all the reporters together as well. And they were like, this is the deal now. It's all fake. It's all silly. Like, and this is kind of the birth of the stigma was a direct result of that. I believe so, yeah. I could see it from my own eyes. And people would be like – Jeff would be like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, no, it's not. You know, I didn't believe – I mean, I'm like, you guys are wackadoodles. It's just the – it's just this or that, you know. Like, I always came up with – I could explain it away until the thing landed, you

32:45 know, 200 feet from me or 200 yards from me. And I was like, okay. I don't know what that was, you know. I can't explain that away, so. That's a good – why don't you jump into that story, man? Oh, okay. It's kind of a big story because it did happen really fast. So, it's not like – so, I was on patrol. I was stuck out. I mean, I wasn't stuck, but they put me out because I was about to deploy to Iraq. So, we were in between training and work and flight. And it was just a weird back and forth with things. So, they didn't really sign us anywhere. It's just whenever we weren't training, we went to a flight to help out with Manny. So, this night, I was out – I don't know if I was – I think it was a patrol I was out there. I had to be out near the flight line. And I was just out there cruising around. And I went over to the little building over to the side, which would be the – I believe the northeast – yeah, the northeast corner

33:46 of the flight line. And I just pulled in there probably to goof off, sleep, who knows what I was about to do, play, who knows. I know we listened – it was coming around that night where we did watch – Nusatelli did get me on the Art Bell, the guy. So, I started listening to him a little bit because, I mean, it's like middle of the night. There's nothing to do. It's foggy and you're bored and whatever. So, I was just sitting there and then all of a sudden, I see this light coming from the coast. And I was like, hmm. First, I didn't think much of it. I just thought maybe it was a helicopter because, I mean, sometimes they would fly out. But then I looked and the helicopters were there because there's only, I believe, two. I was like, oh, those are there. So, that isn't – okay, whatever. I didn't think – maybe it was a ship or something going by or a boat because people would fish out there. But they couldn't fish within so many feet of that base off the coast. They had to stay – A hundred feet?

34:47 No, it was a mile, I think, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, there was – I can't remember. Yeah, they had to stay away from the coastline for so long. I don't remember what – I want to say it was a mile, but maybe not even that far. I can't remember. I was like, maybe it's that. But then it kept getting closer and closer. And I was like, hmm, no, that's coming right this way. So, maybe it's another helicopter or maybe it's a whatever. And then it got closer and closer. And that's when I called it in. I was like, hey, we got an unauthorized aircraft approaching the flight line. And we didn't have people out there. We didn't have resources on the flight line like most Air Force bases. And it just kept coming and coming, and it just got bigger and bigger and bigger. And I was like, what in the world is that thing? And it – I mean, it was huge. Like, I don't know if it was quite a football field, but it was – it was close.

35:49 I mean, it looked like a stadium, a floating stadium, if you really just want to get down to it. And it didn't make a noise. That was the one thing – two things that I remember about it the most is the lights on it, and it didn't make sound. It had like a – I mean, not even a hum. It was just the wind maybe that – I don't know. It wasn't an engine noise at all. And it wasn't like turbines because even those little bitty helicopters that this thing dorfed made tons of noise, helicopters. So, I mean, it's not even that. You know what I mean? And you would think something like that that had blades, it would be super loud because the Chinooks are super loud, you know? And they're double-bladed. And it came in. It came down. It didn't land. It just came down a lot, like, close to landing. And it stood there for about 15 seconds.

36:52 And I'm just looking at this thing, and then it just went toward the coast. And it was gone. Like, no way no one could survive that kind of G's. There's just no way. I mean, that's what I was – I was like, golly, that was crazy. And then I called it in. I think other people were calling it in. I think that – I mean, I think other people saw it, I believe. And then I talked to Jeff, I think, that day. And then it was, like, the day later that morning I got – it's when those three guys came up to me and talked to me about it that I've never seen that I thought were OSI agents. And then that's when I went to – and then that's when I went to Jeff because he was my supervisor. And I was like, hey, Jeff, man, these guys came and talked to me, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, what about it? I was like, well, that aircraft. And he was like, why would they ask you about that? Why were they – he goes, did you know them? And I was like, no, I never recognized these guys. He goes, well, we know all the OSI agents. And I was like, yeah, that's what I thought.

37:52 But I don't know. You know, I don't know. I didn't really think much a whole lot about it, really. I think noose was – I think noose's radar was going off. But I was like, oh, you know, I don't know. I'm just – you know, I'll tell them whatever they want. That's my job, you know, I'm not lighting nothing. And I thought it was just an aircraft. You know, I just thought it was some weird drone. That's what I thought. I thought it was just a really big drone. I mean, that's what I thought. And it was just that weird shape. Like you couldn't really make out what shape it was. But it was – I don't know. It was just a weird shape. And as it was coming in, it would look different every so often as it was getting closer. Like it was ship-shaking almost. You know what I mean? And then it just – and then it left. And the lights didn't project. They were just lights. Like almost like they're hiding whatever's behind the lights.

38:53 Or they were not even lights. I don't know. Because they were just weird. I remember that. What sort of color were the lights then? They first came in, it looked red. And then as it was closer – like they would move. Sometimes it looked like blue and red. And then it would move. And then it would be white. And then when it came in to the closest, they were all white. And then that's when I thought, well, maybe the colors were reflecting off something. I don't know. I mean, it was just – it was really weird. And that's when I started thinking, okay, man, like this whole UFO thing might be legit. You know? I wasn't thinking aliens at all. I wasn't thinking alien type stuff. I was just thinking like, do we have stuff out there? You know, like what did I just see? Because I saw the SR-71. I know how fast stuff can be. Like that thing is fast. And I've seen it take off several times out of build. That thing is fast.

39:53 But it does not take off that fast. And that's the thing. We've seen rockets be launched into space. They're fast. And they take like 20 minutes. You know, you can watch them for 40 minutes, the light, you know. Yeah. So that's when people are like – we're misidentifying what we're seeing. It's like we've seen a lot. You know, we know what aircraft look like. We know what rockets look like. And especially from that distance. We all stuff all the time. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just going to say, from that distance, you know, you're getting a pretty good look. You're not going to misidentify something. No. I know what I saw. I mean, it was the point – I thought someone was going to come off of it, you know, or shut it down and say, you know, or whatever. Because I already called it in. But there was no air traffic controllers there. Because, you know, that's what I called it in for because it was a dead flight line.

40:56 At that time. That's interesting. So, I mean, I know you said it kind of changed shape. But can you – I'm sure people are trying to, like, imagine a little bit what you were looking at. Like, what – can you rip on it a little for us? Do you still have that picture I sent you? Yeah, I can give it to Tom. We'll drop it in. I'll pump it up. Yeah. It was like a square multi-layer. It looked multi-layered. You know what I mean? And it was – it just looked like it had – I'm trying to think how you would even – almost like a Rubik's cube stretched out with the layers. You could definitely tell it was layered. Yeah, like tears. But it was just – it was like a cubicle, stretched cubicle-looking thing. It was really weird. I don't even know how to – I mean, that picture was like – like, when I saw that, I

41:57 was like, whoa. It's just a little flatter than that picture I sent you. It wasn't as tall. It was a little flatter, you know? Yeah, Tom could probably clean up that image. Yeah, absolutely. I've already taken a look, and it's awesome. I'm just trying to get – it's better to hear for the people watching when they hear from you. I'll put the picture up. Yeah, that was me just typing in the description in AI, trying to get like – if it could even get close. And then when it popped up, I was like, ooh, that's – that's pretty close. Beginner's look. Yeah, right. First time ever using AI. Yeah. But – so the lights on it were like – they weren't from a fixed light, you know, like we'd see on a structured craft. No. It was more just like glowing. They were solid. They never blinked. It wasn't a blinking light or nothing. They were solid lights. Yeah. But it looked – it probably would look blinking the way it turned, you know, or got

42:58 behind trees or got behind clouds. It may look like it blinked, but it wasn't. They were solid lights for the most part that I remember. It was solid. And it came down – there was a tree line between you and the flight line, right? So it was kind of obscured between the trees. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. From where I was standing. I think you were at Phantom Area, if my memory is correct. I think that's what it was. Phantom. I think you're right. Yeah, I don't know. That little whatever – I don't even know what that was out there that we were guarding. Honestly, I have no idea. Was there eight years? I still don't know what that was. A lot of spooky – A lot of, yeah, probably. And it was a dead flight line, so it wasn't even coming to check out – you know, like, if it was ours, it wasn't even coming to an in-use flight line. Because you said there's no ATC on or anything like that. Well, if I remember right, the flight line ran north and south, and it came from the west.

43:59 And that's usually how the helicopters came in. But they would even fly – I think they would even come in on approach, normal, on the runway. I can't remember, but I just know it stuck out to me. It was weird when I first noticed it coming in. Yeah, that flight line, we had no aircraft assigned other than the helicopter squadron. So most of the time, there was nobody on duty. It was just inert. You know, the tower wasn't open. You know, but we had other radar stations and things that were up and running. Yeah. I mean, there was all kinds of people that – I mean, we had Navy SEALs that were out there that a lot of people didn't know that were – they ran around out there. We had Navy generals or admirals, whatever they're called, out there that were stationed. So, I mean, it was a multi-force type base. Everybody had their hand in it out there for

44:59 something. Yeah. And that's the thing. They don't have their own eyes and ears kind of thing. They do. And that's the thing I keep getting back to, that the government has data. You know, they absolutely have data on what's coming, flying up to these launch pads. It's just they're not going to share it with the public, right? And that's the question. Why? You know, why? Why is it a secret? We know it's happening. You know, people randomly see these events. And now it's all coming to light. I think there's only two reasons you would keep it a secret. One, they don't know and they don't want to look stupid. Or two, it would totally upend all of humanity's thoughts on life, period, and cause mass chaos. Because I remember a young Jeff Nusatelli telling me one time that without religion,

46:02 you'd have chaos. And I think that was one of his theories on why they were keeping it, which makes sense. It really does. Like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm a spiritual guy. I believe in God and all that. And I can't explain half the stuff I see, you know, or have seen. I mean, and then I went even into this, like, until Jeff called me like a year ago about all this. I forgot about all this. This was like, I mean, I totally just, just stored it away or whatever. I do that. I'm pretty good at moving on and forgetting. But, um, but when he started, when he brought this up, man, it stirred up all kinds of, uh, memories and stuff that, um, that, um, I forgot all about, like, um, I forgot about the, um, I forgot all about the, the orbs out over the ocean.

47:03 And I forgot all about the, uh, um, I even forgot about the ship on the flight line, the thing that's on the flight line. I even forgot all about that. And at that point, one, I was about to get deployed to, uh, Iraq. So my mind was on that. And then we get to Iraq and all kinds of chaos over there. So you just, I mean, it just, it's weird that you would forget something like that, but I did. I just, and then when he brought it up a year ago, I was like, man, I did, like, we saw a lot of stuff out there. And then after all that, all the orbs that I was seeing after the military that I used to talk to my friends about that I always seen, you know, like, I mean, like not far away orbs. I'm talking about within, like, if I had a, if I had a stick, I could knock them out of the air or reach them that kind of close. And then finally, a couple of my friends that were with me, you know, experiencing with me. So I was like, see, I'm not going crazy.

48:05 And then it's weird. It's like once Lisa Kelly kind of got me with that, brought it all back, I started seeing all these words again. So I don't know if my mind, third eye, you say, was like closed and maybe he reopened it. And then I started reading on some of this stuff. And then I started watching, then I started seeing, like, people mentioning Vandenberg and all the stuff that we saw on the news and stuff. I'm like, what is happening? And then that's when I kind of woke up. So I've only been, like, maybe eight months. This is all, like, I'm, like, blown away by that one little, you know, 15-minute interaction, you know, is actually a big deal. And I didn't even think nothing of it then, you know what I mean? And then I started doing my own research and I started seeing all these, like, credible people talking about it. Matter of fact, I just, because I knew we

49:06 were going to do our interview today, I was watching one, I guess it was a while ago. I don't know the guy's name. He was an Air Force lieutenant or he made captain. He was an intel officer for 14 years. News probably knows who I'm talking about. He was on a show with a British or the, he was either British or Australian version of 60 Minutes. And he was on there talking about how he, there are pilots with these ships that have crashed. And he starts talking about the, the, he doesn't really say what they are. He just says they're, they're, they're not human, but they had pilots. And that's really, last night, I don't even think I slept last night. I was like, I haven't even seen this yet. Like, my God. Like, I've been living under a rock about all this because, you know, I was naive then. I was a, the military, you know, that, the military's good. You know, I mean, we're here fighting, you know, like we would never, we would never

50:07 lie to the people. I really honestly thought that. Until you're in the military for a while, you're like, nope. There's all kinds of secrets. Well, I just want to drill back because I'm sure people are speculating about these three agents that came to ask you about it. No, I don't want to, you know, get anybody or over, over reach. But, like, were they in Air Force uniforms or did they, they weren't in Air Force uniforms? Like, what, what can you tell, like, what kind of questions were they asking? What did they look like? They, they weren't, they were, like, casual. I mean, they were just casual. Like, I mean, I don't remember what they were wearing, but it's not like, I think they were wearing, like, slacks and, like, a polo maybe. Or, you know, just something, like, you would wear, like, I don't know, golfing, almost, you know? I mean, really, that's what, I mean, that's what I think of. And they just asked me, hey, what did you see? How long was it there for?

51:09 Where did it go? Did you see anything else besides what you saw? Can you give us any kind of descriptions besides, you know, the likes, the size? I was like, and, I mean, that was about it. And I gave them everything that I could think of. And they said, well, if we have any more questions, we'll get with you. I was like, okay. And that's when, then I got in contact with Jeff because he was my supervisor. And I want him to know that, hey, there's people talking to me about this. And I don't know why they'd be this interested in it. Because, I mean, I've been at other bases where you've had unauthorized aircraft approach. And a lot of times it could be like an unknown, like, right then, in-flight emergency for that plane. And they just didn't have time to notify us yet. But most of the time, we got notified right away of an ISE, in-flight emergency, usually always instantly. So that's what was weird about it. Yeah. And when we would get a notification like

52:09 that, we could get set up on scene in, like, minutes. Just have everything there. The fire department would be there. We'd be set up to respond. And nothing happened with this. I don't even know what, honestly, I don't even know what, I don't even think anybody even came out once I said the aircraft was gone. I mean, I just called it in. I think there was a blot. Hopefully, there should have been a blotter entry. And then, I mean, and then those guys asked me. And then it was just like, besides Jeff and just a few of us talking about it, I don't think, I mean, I don't ever remember discussing it again. And it was just kind of like a dead issue. And so did they approach you, you know, at your office or just to my own base or what? It was the next day on duty. I was out on another patrol, and they asked for my location, I think. No, they didn't ask for my location.

53:10 I know it was the next day. I don't know how they got a hold of me, honestly. I can't remember. I just remember being, we met at the flight line because they wanted to see, you know, kind of where I was standing and all that. I mean, they, and then that's all I remember. And then them asking me those basic questions, and that was about it. I don't remember if I was told to meet them. I can't remember that part. I just know the next day, I don't, yeah. That's fair enough. I'm just trying to figure out, you know, what their access was and what their kind of, you know, there's obviously a lot of sensitive, it's a sensitive base. So you couldn't just be some reporter, and how would they even know? So it's somebody that's... Right. Yeah, because, I mean, they said they were OSI. So I'm not going to ask for their badge, you know what I mean? Because, I mean, I wasn't in trouble.

54:13 They were just asking some questions about what I saw, so I didn't really care, you know? And I know they had to be authorized to be there, because you just can't get on that base. So, yeah. And then I never, and then, you know, and everybody always asks, too, why didn't you guys report it or to go further with it? To who? Who are we going to go to? People don't understand that. You can't go to nobody, or you'll lose your secret clearance, and then you're screwed in our position. Like, there's nothing you can do. Yeah. And what sort of timescale was this in relation to, like, Chaz and everybody's sighted? Was this, it was a couple of weeks? Well, I left October on Halloween of 2003, and this was, I think, October 15th or 16th, because it was a couple weeks before I left, so it's somewhere in there. Right. So, it would have been, yeah, within maybe

55:14 days of Chaz's encounter. Oh, yeah, yeah. Chaz's thing, yeah. Yeah, it was right there close to that, because I remember it was all happening, and then everybody was seeing them over the ocean from the launch facilities out on the coast. I don't know if we can say the names, but out there. Yeah. So, yeah, it was a wave activity over that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you guys have said that you used to get off-base people calling in and being like, are you guys launching something tonight? Because they'd seen stuff taking off, and I don't want you guys to talk about anything sensitive. But if there's stuff seen out to sea as well, and this stuff repeatedly seems to have come in from the west, out to sea. Oh, we've had Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. We've had Lompoc Police Department, Santa Maria Police Department. Sometimes even LAPD would call us and be

56:15 like, what are you flying out here? Because I think their air traffic controllers would pick up stuff or something. I don't know how they would reach us, honestly, to that. But I've worked the desk several times. I mean, I don't think I could have worked that desk a week and not get one unidentified flying something happening that week. Someone would call one in. Then you get your weirdos that would call from the caves of Russia or wherever that guy was that used to call all the time. Yeah, Major Stryker. Yes. Major Stryker. He was a lunatic. Major Stryker, yes. I had a very good relationship with Major Stryker, yes. Yeah. Yeah, he almost gave me a heart attack one day. I picked up the phone. I was getting ready to get off a shift. I'd worked all night. It was morning, doing changeovers, so the new flight is there. And I'm still on the radio on the command center. The phone rings. I pick it up.

57:16 The conversation goes, Delta flight 152, leaving LAX at 930 this morning, will explode 15 seconds after takeoff. And I'm like, holy shit. So I grabbed a checklist. I'm like, we've got a bomb threat happening right now. And then everything, oh, hell's breaking loose behind me, right? Everybody's scrambling, and I've got this guy in the line. And then like five minutes into it, I finally start to piece together he's a complete lunatic. And nothing's going to explode. This is not a terrorist attack. And it's like, okay, bring the heart rate down. Yeah, calls like that, man. Terrifying. There were some good ones that came in from him, that's for sure. And then other people as well. I mean, there's people that like lived, I guess they lived close to the bay somewhere, you know, like out in the hills. And they would call in stuff too.

58:18 And, you know, most of the time we'd be like, yeah, whatever, we know. Who are we going to tell? I mean, that's the thing that people don't understand. We were the top person to notify at that point. I mean, we would notify BDOC, which is the base command. But that was the only other people. And most of those people were just taking notes and like, okay, pass on, you know. That's all that was. And we're responsible for the security, right? So the command post is going to call us and say, what do we do? How do we defend the base? Yeah. Right? We're going, I don't know. We don't know what we're dealing with. You know? Yeah. It's bad. It's all bad. It was. And then when I was up at that one launch facility and I saw the one out in the ocean that we all saw, that's the one, I guess, that all the county people were calling in. They all saw, that was more, I don't know how far away that was. That's the thing about those is that I don't

59:20 know if they're close or far because you can see way out there. And that was more of like what they talk about now, the tic-tac type shape one was that one. But I don't know if it could have been the same one that landed near me, but it just looks different when it's further out. You know what I mean? Like how far are some of these things do we know? I mean, I don't even know that. Yeah. It's very difficult to tell the distance in the sky, you know? Well, that, that, so on the point of you mentioning that then, just for diligence, what, what sort of time was your sighting of the potential landing? Was it like middle of the night or? Yeah, it was like midnight, one in the morning. It was like a late, I was on a mid-shift or a swing or mid, whatever we were doing then. Yeah. It was in the middle of the night. It was similar to Chaz then. And mine, yeah. A lot of these, a lot of these encounters were late, like midnight to 2 a.m.

1:00:21 Yeah, even on the watch facility. Yeah. But then you have the anomaly, which is the daylight saving, daylight encounter with the Boeing contractors, broad daylight, 8.45 a.m. So that breaks that pattern, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So what was, what was this tic-tac sighting them for, for people's benefit? Like what, what happened? Where were you, what, what? It was just going across the water really fast and then they were dancing around and it was, it was just moving really strange. And that's when, oh, I know what happened. We were out there watching it. Someone called it in from another launch facility because there was some launch facilities that were close together. And then we looked and we're like, oh wow, yeah, what is that? And then that's when they called us. The desk was like, hey, can you see this? Can you verify this is out there? Because they knew we had like the best, yeah, we can see it. And then they started going down the post, hey, who can see it?

1:01:21 You know, trying to say, yeah, everybody can see it. And then that's when, that's when I was told that the switchboard at Santa Barbara County was in LA, I think. Or I know it's Santa Barbara for sure. Their whole switchboard went down because of the 9-1-1 calls from it. Yeah. Wow. And I forget, was that a daylight or a nighttime? That was a night, oh. I can't remember. That was, so you see them out there all the time. I think that one was the nighttime. I think that was the nighttime one, maybe. I remember seeing it at night, but I don't remember if that was the one that switched or shut down the, one of them that we saw in the ocean shut down the Santa Barbara Dispatch. And that's a big county. That's a massive county. Yeah. And I think that was the nighttime encounter. And then we had another tic-tac type encounter in the daytime over the ocean.

1:02:23 Right. There's a lot of this stuff that like is completely not public that we're, I'm still piecing together. And that was the great thing with the hearing. If I could just remember that general date, you could look and see the Santa Barbara. I mean, they have to have something documented. I don't know if they keep it for that long. I mean, that was like, you know, but they would have to have it if their system went down. And it was county cops calling in. That was the crazy thing. It was like other police officers from all over were calling in, from all over. So this thing was very visible at that, at that time, which again, when you don't have fog, you can see a long ways there. But 60% of the time, you have fog. So was it illuminated then? Like, can you give us any description of it? Was it giving off light if it was at night or like? Oh, it was light. Yeah. You could see it. I mean, it was, and it was moving like, and

1:03:25 some people said there was more than one. I don't remember. There could have been more than one. I just remember it was moving around, like really, like not making sense, you know? But I mean, everybody was like, what is that? Like, I was up there with three or four other people. We're sitting there watching it. Like, what is that? And they were like, and I was like the super, or I was the highest ranking then, which was sad, but I was. And they were like, have you ever seen stuff like this? I'm like, no, man. I don't know what that is. I can't explain that. Then when we found out later that the deaths, you know, all the other stuff that went on, I was like, holy crap. What did we see? You know what I mean? Like, yeah. But again, me thinking, oh, it's probably, you know, us testing some kind of aircraft. I mean, I wasn't dumb that we had secret. I mean, we're working on stuff. I mean, what military is that?

1:04:26 You know what I mean? So, I mean, I wasn't really, and we were right there. But I mean, honestly, if you want to draw a line, we're probably not that far from Area 51. We're not that far from, what's that Air Force base out in the desert? Edwards. And Edwards does a lot of, you know, testing. So, I mean, it was just like that triangle out there, you know? And then you had the ocean. Well, you could do anything over the ocean because guess what? We couldn't let anybody within five miles of our ocean either. You know what I mean? Because of the national, I think it's five miles. So, I mean, anything could go out there and fly around and not be seen most of the time and with the fog. Yeah. So, I mean, so how – I know, obviously, like, those – like you said, those events were extraordinary, but then you've had a pretty extraordinary career. So, it's just that – how does that just kind of sit with you now?

1:05:26 Like, what do you think is going on? That's why, like, the last couple of months, I've been really trying to wrap my head around it. And then that interview I listened to yesterday just – I don't even know what to think. Now they're saying that they have actual bodies. I think you're talking about David Grush. Yeah. That might be right. And then, you know, the picture that they have of the Roswell that they try to say was a balloon, you know, try to – oh, it was a weather balloon or whatever. And there's actually pictures of this thing. I don't know. And then I started like, man, if it's not – if it's not people, I don't know if angels need spaceships. You know what I mean? I don't know any – I don't know if Angelina – angels or whatever, demons, whatever, they don't need spaceships.

1:06:28 So, that kind of, like, throws me off on the spiritual side of it. You can't find – I mean, I don't know. I'm almost to the point – I'm starting to believe that things are traveling from dimension to dimension, and we're just getting glimpses of it. Or, like he said in that interview, I mean, look at our technology and how far we've become in 200 years, and we still crash things. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, it could be the same way. I don't know. It's got me – I mean, it's got me – I don't even know which way to think because – and it also – I don't know why they're keeping it a secret. Except for they don't know. They don't want to look dumb and cause us to be like, well, if they don't – are we – you know, the hysteria. And then, if they're saying that there are other beings, what's that do to religion? Right. I mean, I don't know. Like, it's just a weird deal, man.

1:07:28 I don't – and now they're saying there's, like, 12 people in the world that know the actual, like – Oh, Majestic 12. Yeah, the Majestic 12. There's so many rabbit holes, isn't there? It's just – I know. You know, you don't even know where to start looking, and then you – there always comes a point where you're like, really? But I guess when you've actually seen stuff with your own eyes that just – Like, was that whole drone thing that happened in New Jersey? Like – Yeah, and keeps happening. Like, I've just made a European flight, and I was checking the night before, and it's like, oh, this base in Germany is shut. And then a couple of nights before, Denmark, two national airports are closed down, and they're naval based. And now even the news isn't talking about it, but you have to check, like, oh, no, the old flights are canceled. And it's like, well, what? Why? I don't think it's – whatever it is, I don't think it's bad.

1:08:31 Because if it was, they would already – I mean, we would have been done for. You know, if their technology is that advanced. So that's why I don't know. I don't know if it's, like, an interdimensional thing, because, you know, I've read into that, you know. Or if it's spiritual, I don't know if it's just – I don't know why you need aircraft to be spiritual unless they're just – like, sometimes I think that's what – when people see Bigfoot and stuff is. You know, maybe it's like a Nephilim or something, changing form. Yeah. For us that understand, you know, or something. So I don't know. I am – I'm more interested in this now. I hope we get answers just so that – I know I'm not going crazy, but it's good that now it's coming out. Because before, if you talk about this, you're a nut job. Yeah. I mean, honestly, people – I mean, I laughed at my – I used to laugh at news to tell you about. Not make fun of him, but just laugh.

1:09:33 Yeah, I still do. Okay, there's a little green man out there, you know. But, shoot, now you start looking at, like – now you – like, you know, I'm big into history, and I watch a lot of these discoveries. Now I'm into this Y-files. And so I've been watching that guy. Yeah. That guy's great. But, yeah. Like, now all the vibration stuff, like Joe Rogan has those guys on and Tucker and all them. But now they're talking about the pyramids removed by vibrations and energy, and that could have been a thing. Yeah. And then we're talking about all the energy out of Vandenberg. Maybe that – I don't know. Like – Yeah. And then there's a nuclear power plant right by Vandenberg on top of that. Diablo Canyon. Yeah, Diablo Canyon. Yeah. So does that have something to do with it? I don't know. I guess the point is the more people like you that are brave enough to say, you know, I was able to operate heavy machinery.

1:10:34 I saw this at this date. I'm not crazy. You know, I've got a good record, and I saw this. Like, that takes a lot of bravery to step out from behind the curtain, man. So – Yeah, definitely know the dude. Yeah. And that's the great thing for me and Grant, Chaz, and our other friends. None of these events happened in isolation, right? Right. Our friends, Bravo Flight, the 50 or 60 men and women we worked with, they lived through this, too. You know, they might not have seen it, or maybe they did, but they know what happened. So it's been easier for me because of that. Like, I know they've got my back. Yeah. And I will say this. The generation – the group of people we had at Vandenberg, that generation, if they start seeing more of this stuff, they're going to feel more comfortable about coming

1:11:34 out and telling stories. Because, I mean, like, news to tell, there was a group during this timeframe that were kind of like the leaders of the base. And then we had, like – everybody was really close for the most part at this base. And it was – I mean, I don't know how many we have, 300 people at that base? 500, I think. Just our squadron? Huh? Yeah. Our 500, maybe? And for the most part, we were all really close for the most part. I mean, we would look out for each other. You know, you had your couple bad seeds, but they were usually taken care of pretty quick. You know, if they didn't get in line with, hey, you know, this is more of a family type. We're here to, like, just get through this. You know what I mean? That was the tightest unit I've ever been in. It was family. Like, our flight, Bravo flight, was family. Mm-hmm. There were no – there were zero outsiders on that flight. Everybody was family. And we went out together. We partied together. We all would have big poker games. All the days. Yes. Yeah.

1:12:34 Like, 40 or 50 people at my house will have a poker tournament table just strung out outside everywhere. People cooking and, you know, because you were pretty isolated out there on that base for the most part. I don't know about nowadays, but then it was. I felt pretty isolated. Yeah. It was, man. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, I think this is just going to help. What Newsatelli's doing is great. What you're doing is amazing. And all the other people that's coming out now that was on the committee with News on, you know, all that. And I really do respect that there's congressmen out there on both sides now trying to – I hope they're actually trying to get – sometimes I wonder if they just want to know how much we know. That's my other, like, thing. Like, are they, like, just trying to see what we know? And, you know, are we going to see – The answer is yes.

1:13:35 Yes. But there are also some congressmen and senators and people in the intelligence community that are actually trying to help. That's – Because I'm with a lot of people on this now. And I'm all about keeping secrets for national security. Like, I get that. You know what I mean? I understand. But something like this that's just not affecting America, it's affecting the world. Like, this isn't just happening here. It's happening in the UK, Russia, China. I mean, how much is this going on in China? We don't even know about. Or Russia, because they shut their people up. You know? They're not allowed, you know? I mean, we don't know. And that's the whole thing, right? Why aren't we allowed to speak about the truth of whatever this is? Why the secrecy? Why the pressure and the retaliation? Because they can't hide this forever. No.

1:14:36 I mean, those 12 people are going to die eventually. That's the weird, like, contradiction is they manage to say there's absolutely there, nothing there, there's nothing to worry about. But it's also classified, so you can't talk about it because it's a complete secret. Well, how is nothing secret? You know, like, somewhere there's a crack in that. And how much is Area 51, like, a diversion? Yeah. I mean, I don't even know. But it could be just a diversion. Look over here, you know. Dude, we could be in Siberia where there's no one for 5,000 miles underneath an ice cave doing stuff that no one would ever know about. Right. Or anywhere else in Nevada. They could build a base anywhere out there. It's all next door, and they're all just looking over the fence at all the reports and spy drones and all of that. I mean, look at Colorado.

1:15:37 Colorado alone is a big intel state. Like, there's a lot of intel out in Colorado. And they got bases and mountains here. I mean, come on. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, we might not get any answers anytime soon, man. But hopefully we can hang out and ask a bunch more questions. I think we're going to get – I think something's going to have to come out. I think it's going to be one of those people – it'll be released, like, when they don't have nothing to lose. You know, I do. I think eventually with technology – you can't hide this stuff forever. How? I mean, I don't know how they're going to hide it. They can't anymore. That's why we're in this new disclosure movement, you know. It's like – Or tell us why you're not telling us. Just say this. You're like, well, we told you. Yeah. And how many countries are involved in this

1:16:37 cover-up? Like, why is it, like, small little countries that have nothing to lose, why aren't they, like, experiencing this? Or do they not – I mean, is it just the select areas where these things go, you know? Well, it seems to be very America-centric. I know the news is always, like, super America-centric. But if you look at, like, the Varginia case from Brazil, it's like – and then these black C-130 turned up, you know. And same in Australia. They had, like, the Westall sighting, and then all of a sudden the U.S. turn up. And it's like there's some monopoly over this that the U.S. has got. So if we're going to see progress, it's got to come from you guys. And that's the thing. Who shows up? The U.S. Air Force. Yeah. Right. And who are the one agency not talking? The U.S. Air Force.

1:17:38 They're not in front of Congress. They're not talking about UFOs. They're not talking about the bases being shut down. They're not talking about the New Jersey drone incident. The U.S. Air Force is not talking. Here's my question about all this secret stuff. Right. How can you keep a secret this long? Because, I mean, okay, let's say that you're a four-star general, right? You're given, like, the Yankee white clearance or whatever the heist is now. I don't know. There's new ones I hear about all the time. And they say, hey, we have aliens. Here's the pictures, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do they keep that generational and generational? I mean, and not get out? It has to help. Yeah. I think, I mean, every now and then you hear about somebody doing something like that. Like, there was Haya Meshed from Israel, you know, as you mentioned before.

1:18:38 There's Paul Hellyer, the Canadian Defence Minister. The French, like, leader of the French Air Force was like, we need to just be public about this because it's happening. So, and Operation Prato in Brazil, like, the Brazilian Air Force at some point were just like, yep, there's stuff everywhere. We've got no idea what's going on. We need the public to help, like, report this. But then it's so unbelievable, the stuff that they tell us when they do open up, that I think we just go, that is, that can't be, no, you know? And the next thing you know, more news happens and more news happens and these guys get left in the woods. But some of the people that have come forward have said the most extraordinary things, like, there's like the mortician from Roswell, you know, and all of these testimonies that are there just sat on YouTube gathering dust. And one of them has got to be telling the truth, you know, just sheer force of odds.

1:19:40 And if any of them are, then everything changes. Yeah. If you look at the record, right, so 1978, 79, the New York Times prints this huge expo about UFOs in the secret government program, right? They talk about this huge UFO incursion in New England that lasted for weeks. These things were flying up in Canada, hitting all these bases in New England. You know, they're scrambling fighters. Same thing that happened to us, but without, you know, they had fighters. We didn't. But it's the cops on the ground screaming about UFOs flying 200 feet over their head, all over New England. Really? This is in the 70s, moving into the 80s. New York Times, multi-page, like, UFOs are real. The government knows. The government has a program. And then that fades.

1:20:40 Nobody knows about that article. And then we come to 2017. The same article basically comes out again. But now it's updated. New generation. And so this time we have more momentum because we've had the congressional hearings following up the New York Times disclosure. And then, a few months ago, we have Harold Malmgren passes away. And before he does, he's a historic national figure. And he goes to the grave saying, UFOs are real. CIA was in on it. The government is aware of them. There are deep, dark secrets to be revealed. Right? And what's the response to delete his Wikipedia? He's nobody. I see. He's not important. He's not a historical figure. He's just some dude who died of conspiracy theories. Saved us from nuclear Armageddon.

1:21:41 And Wikipedia's like, nah. That's what keeps happening, right? All these astronauts. I've lost track. There's like five or seven astronauts that have come out and at least alluded to. They saw weird shit up in space. Right? And we just kind of like, okay, well, never. Don't pay attention to the astronauts, the fighter pilots, the heads of state, the guy that wants the Israeli NASA program. Like, ignore them. And I think there's, this is a, I think UK, Israel, America is probably the three countries that are probably like, if they are in on this, there's probably those three countries, I would assume. I'm sure Russia and China know something to do. I mean, there's no doubt. Those are too big of countries not to, you know. Yeah. There was a report that came out in 2000, the Condine report in the UK by the Ministry of Defence in like 2000, 2001.

1:22:41 And they were, so they'd, first of all, which is my like Moby Dick, there's these two, they were talking about different American platforms that were testing and flying. And they've got the Raptor there and all sorts of stuff like that. And then there's two that are blacked out. That's a whole other story. But they're using the terminology UAP back in 2000. And they're talking about these plasmas that are just flying around and maybe we could weaponize it. And this is all in declassified military documents. And then when you realize that UK is part of the Five Eyes, so you've got that network essentially spanning the globe, hopefully sharing all intelligence with each other. Then there's a hell of a backbone of research that's been going on outside of, you know, oh, that guy's crazy, put a tinfoil hat on. But what keeps all these countries quiet?

1:23:43 Like what? Okay, I can see why UK, Israel and America stay quiet. But what makes Russia stay quiet? What's made like, why are these other countries? They won't even speak on it if they know about it or have knowledge of it. Like what's keeping them? That's what I'm saying. There's something like, are these things controlling? Like, are these things part of us? Are they integrated into our government? I don't know. Like, if you say something, I'll vaporize you. Yeah. And that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of. Why the secrecy? Surely if you were against a nation and you wanted to destabilize it and you had knowledge that, you know, country X had a secret back engineering problem and you wanted their citizens to lose faith in government. You'd go, yeah, cool. You know, but it's just not happened yet. But this isn't just like a one country secret.

1:24:43 This is a world secret. It is the great conspiracy. That's the thing. And my opinion is, behind the scenes, in every government, this is the most important topic at the center of things. It might not be the most hot button topic because there's wars and tragedies and things playing out, but beneath all of that is the phenomenon. Whatever it is, and that is about reality. Why is reality classified? We're not allowed to know what is really going on around us, right? And then people like us witness the impossible, and then it's like, don't, don't, don't, don't tell anybody about what you saw, about what's real. Keep that quiet. Why? And it's not even conclusions that witnesses like us have.

1:25:43 We just have the eyewitness experience, you know, like you did. I'm not saying the stuff that I have seen, I have any idea what it was, but I am an eyewitness to something I don't understand. And yet, even that is stigmatized or deeply attacked if you're in a professional role. You know, if you're a pilot, okay, cool, you've lost your med license, you can't fly. If you're in the intelligence community, okay, cool, there goes your clearance. So, there's nothing more innocent than saying something happened, I'm in a position of responsibility. And I can't report it. Like, that's, that's, that's, that's blindfolding yourself at work, you know? Yeah. And, and these countries that how they're all working together to keep it hush hush. I mean, someone's got to be, they got to be something over them to keep these secrets. But then you look back at some presidents and you're like, I think he would have said something or, I don't know.

1:26:44 I don't know. I mean, I don't know. The pattern is, the pattern is like Carter tried to do something about it because he saw a UFO. He was hoping about that. And then he, he alleged the, the lore is he was given a briefing and it terrified him out of his mind. And he said, okay, just bury it. Right. And then Reagan comes along with his speeches about, you know, a threat from space would bring us together. You know, and then Trump comes out and it's like, I'm going to try to be transparent about UFOs. Right. And that's where we're at now. And you think he's going to, the Clintons, like they, they, the Clintons were, all those emails came out and it was like, this is the plan. We're going to, we're going to blow the doors off this thing. And then they, the only thing they weren't planning for was losing. And that's, that's exactly what happened. And maybe Trump, I mean, like him or love him, but maybe he is being real careful

1:27:46 about like, we're going to release this. And maybe on the day, on his last two days, man, he might just be like, here, you know, you don't know with him. Right. Yeah. He might, he might just be like, screw this dude. I'm 80 years old. I'm a billionaire. Take, take this Jack. I'm going to blow your guys's mind. Like, or he knows in him. Okay. So here's another thing with it. And this is why I keep going back to maybe it's spiritual because there are a lot of spiritual people. A lot of people who believe in God that know about this stuff and they still believe in God and they still don't hesitate from that. So I don't know what we're dealing with, you know what I mean? But yeah, I mean, was this erased somewhere in our history? Like, somehow like, this is might've been going on. And I don't know. You can go down. Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, we talk about it being a bipartisan

1:28:47 issue, but it's literally like, it's the one issue that every culture and every history has a story. Apart from like there being a flood and some people survived, like every old school religion and culture has got, Japan's got drawings of flying saucers. Like our biblical art, you know, has got stuff in the sky. There's, there's, they pop up every, it's a human experience. I just remembered something. Grant, do you remember this? Do you remember when we were in college together and we took speech together? And do you remember what I did my speech on? Marijuana? You're right. I did a speech on that. Yes, I did a case study on that. On, uh, you are not UFOs, but was it? No, it was, uh, yeah, it was UFOs. I did all the religious art.

1:29:50 I went back and I did a presentation. Yes, that's right. Yes. And at the end of the speech, you said, you told the teacher that, because they had to like evaluate, we were being evaluated. And you were like, I didn't believe in any of this crap, but your speech has opened up my mind and I'm going to think about it. I think that was the beginning where I cracked, cracked into you. And I have friends that are like, that live, that I grew up with that believe in it. And they've seen stuff, you know, and I'd always be like, okay, buddy. And then when, uh, Joe Rogan came out in 08, whatever that was, he came out a long time ago. One of the first guys to really speak about UFOs. And then, you know, and everybody's like, you know, and I was like, yeah, he's an entertainer, man. You know, like, blah, blah, blah. But now it's like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what to believe. It's real. Like, there's no doubt. I don't doubt it no more.

1:30:50 I just don't know what it is. I don't know if it's interdimensional. I don't know if it's an energy thing. I don't know if it's just something that isn't anonymity that we keep seeing. I don't know. But the thing that really opened my eyes, or besides that, was the pilot. When that came out, when they released that video of him chasing that Tic Tac. Oh, Dave Fravor, yeah. That's when I was like, okay, you're talking about a pilot now, man, that has a lot to lose by coming out with this. And God knows what those pilots have seen up there. Imagine what an SR-71 person's seen, or a U-2 pilot. There's a classic case of a blackbird. I think it was towards the end of its testing, where he says this thing just shut up, overtook him, and then basically flew from one wing to the other for about 10 minutes. He's radioing it in, saying there's

1:31:51 something here way faster than me, about five feet from my craft. And then it just went hot, literally as if it was like, ha-ha, see you later. And those things are... Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the fastest thing that we know about that we've ever had in the sky. I don't know how much of your viewers or whoever watched you know about the SR-71, but I know quite a bit about what I was around it, because, you know, that was such a cool... I love planes, and that's why I kind of went to the Air Force, too. Planes are awesome, man. I mean, I would love to be a pilot, but you don't want me to be a pilot. I'd be that guy who drove the B-52 into the munitions ground. That would be mean. But, golly, man, like, where's I going with that? I got to... Oh, you're talking about the SR-71. Oh, yeah, the SR-71. So as soon as it takes off, they have to refill it. So there's already aircraft. There's already KC-135s in the air.

1:32:51 This thing... Okay, so for the last flight, for the last... To put it into perspective, how fast this thing is. We're at Bale Air Force Base, which is in Northern California. The SR-71 was doing its last continental flight that day. That day. The whole border of the United States that day. It left D.C. out there. And the air traffic controller in California gave us updates where it was at. And there was a big crowd out there. There was thousands of people for this. I mean, it was a big deal. And it left D.C. And within 30 minutes, it was over Oklahoma City. It's cooking. Right. And within 45 minutes, it did a flyby. And it had three blue circles over it. Breaking the...

1:33:51 When it went by. It was gone. And it was already at the Oregon border before we heard the sound booms. Holy shit. Wow. Because it went by. And you're like, he's going to be in the Oregon. And then you're boom, boom, boom. You're like, holy crap. Like, it's unbelievable fast. And for something to be bouncing around that thing... Yeah. I mean, I don't know his crew speed or anything, but... It's like 2,000 miles an hour. Dude, it's ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're in full... Like, just like the U2. They're in... They're in like... They look like astronauts. Yeah. I know. I had a turning circle of like 18 miles or something like that. Oh, it's ridiculous. Yeah, they have to... Yeah, like... That's what happened was when he went by, they had to go all the way to Washington State and turn around.

1:34:53 Wow. That's ridiculous, man. Because at the altitude they were at, I guess. You know, they were flying. Yeah. You know. Usually they're up in the... Wherever. Big question is like, why did they retire it? What came after it? What made that obsolete? You know, because I know that was the... This is... I can... I don't want to rattle for hours about this, but like, there was a perfect little window there until we had satellite coverage and we didn't need a super cool jet. There's a window of between when that thing sunset and probably about eight years later when we had satellites everywhere where something must have took its place. Because things didn't cool down. It's not like we all went, oh, we're going to be friends around the world and don't need to look over each other's shoulders. Like, something took over. Yeah. And a lot of people don't know that the SR-71 had a mini SR-71 if they could launch from that SR-71. Yeah.

1:35:53 I watched a video, there's some guy just found one just rotting in a desert that's just in one of your old airplane graveyards. I forget what it was called, but it was just like a jet engine with fins that were deployed from the back of it. And it's just sat there, just falling apart. You know, like, Jesus. Yeah. Things that, what that thing has done, you know, it's, it's, it's wild. And then now, I mean, they're still using U-2s, which is crazy to me, you know, with satellites, but they're still using them things, you know? Yeah. And that's a remarkable, anyway, that's a cool, that's a pretty cool point too, but. Yeah, man, I could rattle about this all night, but I don't want to keep you guys tied down, but dude, it's been, it's been a blast, Grant, and, and I'm looking for any time you want to chat planes or, or anything weirder, like, it would be amazing, dude. I mean, this stuff is interesting, you know?

1:36:57 And, and I think the more people that get on like this and talk and shoot ideas across, you know, they could open up like, oh yeah, you know, like, I never thought of that. You're getting different perspectives, especially people like me who did not believe in this stuff at all. And this is stuff I've been seeing lately with the orb, the orb thing. And I, and I've, I've told Jeff, I want him to come out here or even you come out here to Colorado. I got a big enough house and do, we could go on top of one of these mountains out here. You know, 14, 15,000 feet up in the air and camp out there. Let's see what we see. You know what I mean? Yeah, dude. I'm coming. We're going to try to come in. Especially with all these air force bases around here and everything, you know? Yeah. We'll put our expedition together, man. I think it'd be cool. It's a thing you have.