Chaz King, eye-witness to the Vandenberg UAP, with Jeff Nuccetelli (2025)

0:18 Hey folks, welcome back. So we're going to start this one with a question. What does Martin Sheen, Michael Jackson, an Olympic gold medal-winning boxer, and a U of the size of a football pitch all have in common? Well, today's guest has at least attempted to arrest all of them. So, today you're going to meet Chaz King, a great friend of Jeff's and a former colleague at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They worked together for 3 years there, where after Jeff left, um Chaz took over his role more or less. Chaz has been deployed all around the world from Bahrain to Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, even such a far-flung place as RAF Lakenheath, where we would later have our own UAP incursions. But one of the main points of today's discussion, and certainly one of the weirder parts of his career, was being a to one of the incursions of the now infamous Red Square event at Vandenberg Air Force Base in America.

1:20 So we had a great conversation. I've really enjoyed getting to know Chaz over a few conversations, and look forward to doing a lot more in the future. And I hope you enjoy it. Let's jump in. Welcome Chaz King. Hello, my friend. What up, man? It's been a long time coming. I'm glad you're here, man. Yeah, same here. Yeah. So what What do we start? Uh you can Why don't you tell Tom how we know each other? Like how did we meet? So I was stationed with Jeff uh at Vandenberg Air Force Base uh from about 2000 till one of the you left or I left shortly after each other. Um I can't remember when I left. I'm like '07. Uh and for the first 3 years I was there, you Jeff was my direct supervisor until I kind of promoted a little bit and uh got to get on my own a little bit, but uh working for him, you know, then developed a pretty good friendship. Um he actually introduced me to my wife and our soon-to-be ex-wife, but yeah, so he

2:21 introduced me. Thanks for that, dude. Yeah, you're welcome, dude. But no, I just uh you know, working together, had a good good relationship, taught me a lot, and then as a friend and a and a and a you know, person, just shared a lot of memories and stories and and life together, I guess. Yeah, right. Yeah, we went through a lot together, man. Uh out on those highways in California and everything in between, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to start with what he what he's like as a boss, because I think that's a bit of a harsh thing to jump in with. So what made what made you want to be a cop? Uh as long as you don't screw up, he's a good boss. You screw up and he lets you know it. I can imagine. Well, what made you want to go into that line of work in the first place, man? That's a good place to start, I think. Uh no, growing up most of the people in my family, granddads, uncles, and and things like that were all in the military, some some, you know, branch or

3:23 the other. Um and then I used to grow up back in the day uh watching the What was that? California Highway Patrol ships and I wanted to be a cop and you know, and all that fun stuff. And then when the opportunity came up after I got out of high school to uh you know, go in the Air Force, you know, they put on the the cool videos of the security forces, you know, pulling people over and shooting guns and you know, the other stuff they do, throwing hand grenades and all that stuff that we didn't do a whole lot of, but the video was really cool. Uh you know, kind of I signed my name to the line and got to kind of live out my dream to be a cop and in the military at the same time. Yeah, pretty unique career field. Yeah. Yeah, so what are the for the benefit of everybody that doesn't really understand, what's what's the difference between being a cop and an Air Force cop? You know, in terms of the day-to-days Well, like uh kind of Jeff Jeff alluded to it, it's it's a unique career field, so it has two different entities. Uh it would I guess several

4:23 now, but back in the day you had two different entities. You had a law enforcement, which is like what traditional cops do, where they on the base and sometimes depending where you're at, uh if you have certain jurisdictions off base, um you do a lot of, you know, traffic stops, responding to, you know, normal domestic situations, possible breaking and enterings, uh suicides, things like that. Just, you know, your your your traditional cop work. Uh stuff like that. They also had gate guards, which is kind of your entry level into that, so you were the control point to the base. Then you had your other side, which was like the security or or back, you know, even a little farther back, air base ground defense. So that was kind of like the different aspect where you were guarding launch complexes, nuclear missiles, planes, things like that. Um so you had that you had the option to kind of do both. I think uh probably Jeff came in before me. I think you guys were separated at the time when you came in, either law enforcement or security. I came in like 3 months after they merged,

5:25 so you were kind of both. So when we were going through our training, you got trained to be law enforcement and be security. When you got to your first they were like, we need a security person or we need a gate guard, and you kind of went on your way that way. And uh if you were lucky enough, you got to you know, I always thought law enforcement was cooler because you wanted to be a cop, so if you got to you got to do more of the the stuff you thought you would do, which was responding and all the things like that. Yeah, the other thing that that's different is the the combat role. Oh, yeah. So uh our career field count comes out of, you know, military police units that were moved over from the Army Air Corps to the Air And then what happened was Vietnam changed the way they had to operate because the cops were always from the beginning, they were required to to secure like the perimeter of the air base, so 5 clicks out, 5 km out.

6:25 And then they had to do that in Vietnam. And they were getting destroyed out in the jungles. They weren't trained, they weren't equipped for, you know, infantry, you know, operations like that. So during Vietnam, they I think it was right around the Tet Offensive, they started training up Air Force as Ranger units. They sent them to Ranger School and uh infantry training. And then uh brought them into Vietnam and they were operating, you know, outside the wire. Because the bases kept getting overrun. You know, they just weren't able They would run around with like .38s, you know, fighting the Viet Cong. You know, and it's like they they you need to gear these people up and get them trained. And then uh after Vietnam, that kind of spun down and the combat training kind of It was always there, but it wasn't a priority. And then uh when I joined in '93, it had become a new priority.

7:27 So they intensified the training. We went back uh like I went to Army like basic infantry school at Fort Dix, New Jersey. And that was after the Air Force combat ground combat Yeah. So they kept adding better and better training. And and then uh you know, by the time 2001 rolled around, you know, we were pretty ready to to do the mission. Yeah. It went through different like phases where they, you know, they're like, "Ah, we don't need ground combat, you know, a focus on that." And then and then a war would start and they're like, "We need to we need to train our guys to survive, right?" Yep. And as it evolved, the training evolved to doing the stuff we see now, going out, being attached to the to the Army units or the Marine what not. So it's just like you said, constantly evolving depending on what we have to face. So it's pretty pretty unique career path then, really. You kind of one one foot in each world

8:28 at the same time. Yeah. So So we was Vandenberg your first proper like base deployment then, Chaz? Yeah, it was my first duty station. Right. And and and like what One thing that it's very hard for us civvies to understand is kind of what what was it like on there? I mean, we imagine lots of LED lights and secret hangars and stuff like that, and but what what was it like on a day-to-day basis? Uh you know, it's just like being in your own like in our own little town, especially Vandenberg being one of the larger bases that we have. Um it had a little bit of everything. You had you know, your your main cantonment area, so you had houses, you had a grocery store, we would call the the commissary. You had like a Walmart, which is the BX. You had gas stations and then, you know, fire departments and hospitals and all things you see in just a normal town. And then you have what, you know, what the mission dictates there. So if you went farther out on the

9:29 base, you would have like launch facilities for for some of the defense programs we had. And if you would go out even farther or south of the base, you would have space launch complexes where they launched satellites and things like that. Had a one of the larger taxiways or runways in the in in in some Correct me if I'm wrong, Jeff, in the in the world, right? Or in the in the hemisphere. I think it's like the third largest, at least in the Air Force or something. It's It was designed for the space shuttle to land, so it's just huge. Yeah, so we had that there and had a what, 35 miles of coastline, so you had the beach aspect of it, so it's it's very similar to what you'd see in a rural like in a in a city, but then you have those things you talked about, the things that the the civilians don't get to see, you know, being in those launch complexes or even at Vandenberg, some of those that used to go back to being a nuclear base, some of those old nuclear that that are just in the middle of nowhere, you're walking and you're like,

10:30 "Hey, what is that hole in the ground?" the old launch tube for an old ICBM, so you know, you had some of that stuff going on there, too. And how how kind of briefed were you guys on what was there and what was going on? I mean, when you first get there, especially like as a brand new airman, you know, you're you're kind of briefed on a whole lot of everything what the mission is, what each unit there does, what the role is you're going to play. So, as far as like the the Air Force aspect, you're kind of up to date on it. But, depending on what rank you are, what job you had, you had access to, you know, higher levels of things or, you know, a need to know things, so just kind of depend on the role you played. And probably >> Yeah, a lot of a lot of the buildings we had no idea what was going on in the buildings. And even when um we had to respond to a building like there was an incident, like usually this would be like an alarm inside a building

11:30 that's gone off, and the everything inside the building is classified, So, we would have to respond to investigate, but we weren't allowed in the building, so we had to be escorted by a contractor or another Air Force person with clearance. And if it's a strange situation, you know, you're you've got your gun, you're responding to like a possible whatever. And you know, you've got this you know, shuffling down the hall with you and you know, it's like, "You're coming into a gunfight with me, I guess, if it turns into that, you know." But, that was the thing, we we didn't know what was in the buildings and if we did have to enter, we had to be escorted. So, we had eyes on us inside the you know. So, it's a weird situation, everything is tightly, you know, contained and classified. Yeah. Yeah, that was going to be my next question because you guys would be the point of call if anything

12:32 untoward were to go on, whether it's like a faulty sensor or a break-in or or worst case, you know, the book would stop with you guys. Yep. And we also had Air Force police that were they had higher clearances and they were assigned to some of these buildings, so they weren't part of our unit, they were attached to like third space tracking unit or whatever. And they worked inside of those buildings and they managed the security, they made sure everybody was compliant. Yeah, so you know. So, was it like a 24-hour a day never sleeps environment or was it, you know, kind of dead at night and paint me a picture. I mean, it just kind of depend on the nights, to be honest with you, I mean, some nights you wouldn't have a a thing go on and so you you just played, you know, I got I always say play or trained, you you ran exercises, scenarios and things like that to one,

13:32 sharpen your skills and two, beat the boredom. And then there would be nights where you would blink and you'd been there for 12 hours and you didn't even have time to breathe, eat shower, nothing because you had a a DUI, a domestic, a couple traffic stops, a fight at the club. So, you you just depend on the day of the week and then, you know, the the mood of what was going on wherever you're at, depending on how you were doing, so a little bit of both. So, without getting into the spicy stuff yet then, what what are some of your favorite memories from from being there? Uh you know, we had a we had some protesters that came through. Uh Greenpeace came through to protest, you know, the nuclear missiles we had on our base, which we didn't have any, but um they they they came on and I think, you know, I think Jeff was pretty involved with uh getting Martin Sheen off the lines, uh pretty nice guy, but you know, just happened to show up with a couple protests and then uh you know, getting the some of the training we got to do, just from, you

14:34 know, the the job part of it, getting to go out there and and uh train with Santa Barbara County, train with uh you know, we had the the Navy SEALs come on and do some excursions on the south base and we got to interact with them and that was pretty fun. And then uh as I progressed in rank, I got to go do some jobs that I never thought I would get to do. I got to be a trainer, so I got to go to all the schools and learn how to teach people how to do uh you know, close quarters combat and how to do ground combat and, you know, getting pepper sprayed and tased and teach people how to do all that, that was pretty fun. Uh from the Vandenberg aspect of it. Um and then of course, some pretty wild incidents that we responded to with uh just things on the base, some some interesting traffic stops. Uh I think Jeff pulled over an Olympic gold medal boxer one time. >> Oh, yeah. That was actually pretty cool. That was wild. Yep, just a >> Yeah, it was sad. I had to I had to arrest him. So, he um

15:36 I forget what Olympic he was in, but yeah, he won the gold and he his life had fallen apart when I met him and he was hired to do some some work like cleaning work or something. And he came through the gate and um he was intoxicated and they called me because I was the drug recognition expert, so I could do all the different types of analysis to find out like what kind of drugs they're on and I could act as an expert witness in So, you know, if there was a drug incident, I usually got called in. And I we were searching him and I pulled out a gold this big gold medal from his And I'm like, "Man, where'd you get this?" He's like, "Oh, I won that at the And I was like, "Really?" He's like, "Yeah." And he told me who he was and then Jay James Amick Yep. heard the guy's name over the radio and was like, "That's that dude." He drove and he's like, "That's him. Yeah, that guy is like an Olympic athlete."

16:38 Yeah. Yeah, he had fallen on hard times, you know, and I yeah, it was sad, but he still that was like the only thing he had left was that gold medal. Yeah, it was like his like one thing he said and everything. I remember him saying like he was that's the one thing I'll never I'll never let go, so So, were you kind of relieved that you didn't have to tangle with an Olympic Yeah, he was he was very calm and he was a peaceful dude, not looking for Jeff, what what's what tell us a wild incident you responded to or was involved in. I think the the wildest ones I got to play with is when I was up on the the launch force desk and just having to be the control center like when the the guy stole the boat from Santa Barbara Marina and crash landed on the base and uh you know, they called it in as a terrorist excursion on the base and you know, having to control that whole thing, talking to some rear admiral in the Coast Guard and on the phone and

17:39 having everybody from leadership breathing down your neck while you guys were all out there trying to find all these people that were trying to to, you know, assault the base and you know, getting to see it from the aspect of, "Holy crap, here I am just a little staff sergeant talking to a rear admiral on the phone, talking to Santa Barbara, you know, Santa Barbara Harbor Patrol and all that kind of stuff." And meanwhile, it's just some guy who stole the boat and crashed it on the base and tried to just get away with it, but that was that was probably one of the wildest ones just because of it was just a routine night that turned into pure chaos. Yeah, that that one was wild because the Coast Guard literally said, "We've got a terrorist attack in progress. They hit Santa Barbara, they sunk multiple stole a vessel, they're right off the coast, we think they're they're attempting to land, you know, near the launch pad." So, we went into full-blown like threat con delta, you know, thinking we were going to get

18:40 It was just some lunatic that he had been a merchant marine, so he knew how to operate a boat and he stole a yacht, a huge like, I don't know, 100-something-foot and he just went for a joyride and he crashed it right into the thing and then he he had a bicycle, so he threw his bicycle off, jumped in the and then we we caught him. And I almost let him go. Yep. I I thought I'm like, "I'm looking for terrorists, right?" I'm like, "What is this guy out here with a bicycle?" I thought he was you know, just got lost on the trail, but then it was like, "Why are you soaking wet?" And he's like, "Oh, he told me a story how he he wrecked on the trail." And and the more I talked to him, you know, cuz I'm like, "I need to get back in the game. I need to get this guy out of here." And then they're like, "No, no, don't let him go, hang on." And they

19:40 were running his name, they're like, "Now, we think that's the dude." And I'm like, "This is the terrorist?" Yeah. All right. I think I think that and then being on the desk when I forget who did it, they pulled over Michael Jackson on the highway. Oh my god. What? Yeah, cuz he was out on Santa Maria and they pulled over he wasn't driving but he was in the car so they pulled over the Suburban or whatever he was in and they called in you know we our routine practice was to get the identification of everybody in the car because you never know just cuz if you know I'm driving doesn't mean that Jeff's not wanted so you'd run everybody in the vehicle and you know they they gave us the driver's license of this everybody and I and I put it in our our database or you know GCIC system or what was it? I'm saying Georgia now cuz that's the last time I did law enforcement stuff. Whatever we had there. And uh I got a call from from uh I will say Santa Barbara or whatever. You just find a county. Yeah. on celebrities and I'm like what are you talking about? You just ran Michael Jackson and I was like with he's in the

20:42 Suburban we just pulled over on the highway. So Yeah. Cuz it's set up like that if you just try to run random celebrity names it gets flagged. And then you have to explain why cuz you can't just like I want to find out Michael Jackson's plate number. Right? So yeah they monitor that. And then we worked on the Jackson trial. I forgot about that too. Were you in on that? I remember um Wasn't a part of that but I remember you guys doing it. Yeah. I didn't do much of it but I remember Tommy did. But what happened was his ranch Neverland Ranch was not far from the base I think it was like 30-40 minutes away. Yeah. And for some reason we ended up doing support for the trial. Mhm. And we had to guard the ranch. So we were there was a bunch of my friends down on Never Neverland Ranch guarding it. Yep. You know it's just bizarre. It's like why are we here?

21:44 You know what? What is going on? I was not expecting to hear that. That's another surprise man. Yeah I'll take it. What what was it like? I mean I know we're going off on a tangent but like that must have been weird. It was weird. I I just went to like the I didn't go in the house or anything I was in the front at the gates. But uh yeah I mean it's like a weird amusement Yeah. Yeah. Yeah our buddy Tommy was a huge Michael Jackson fan. Mhm. And you know and we were all like we're not fans of Michael at the moment. And he was like no no he didn't do any of that. I'm like well we're guarding his ranch for a reason. Right? So Yeah. And strangely enough another Michael Jackson connection a friend of mine was his not housekeeper she kind of maintained she kind of was like his administrative

22:46 So she worked at the house she ran all his like day-to-day functions she took care of the kids made sure that they were you know at school and everything and she had to testify in the trial. And she's on a lifelong gag order. Wow. She can never talk about that trial. She couldn't even tell me in private she was afraid to to tell me about it. Yeah. I met her in college at Santa Maria Community College. We were in the same class together. Because she had lost her job from Mr. Jackson Yeah. And one thing I will say he did not provide them her his employees with health care. And her daughter had broke her leg playing soccer. And she had to she was trying to get like loans like cash loans from the bank to pay for her daughter's broken leg while she was employed by Mr. Michael

23:46 >> So so And then you've had that thing today with that rapper guy who used your Congress testimony in a track called Who Killed Michael Jackson. I'm I'm starting to if I was a cop I'd be taking notes by this point guys. My god yeah something What's the deal with Michael Jackson? So I guess now now that we're in the fully weird territory Vandenberg Vandenberg had a reputation for some pretty strange stuff going on that that you guys were involved in. So why don't we kind of dip into that a little bit? Yeah Jeff I'll I'll let you you want to you want to jump in about when it all I mean weird stuff happened all the time on base obviously we all know about what Jeff just testified in Congress about but I mean we had Indian burial ground kind of weird stuff going on where people would hear drums and the fog would roll in and they would

24:47 see figures in the fog and you had what was it? Used to be the space launch complex that burned to the ground with the with the base commander and the fire chief that people would say they would see things out there at whatever McWilliams saw at the at the solving gate. I'll let you go into that and then No maybe we'll skip that one. I'll let Mick we'll let Mickey tell the stories man. Uh you know for me personally but the the one big thing that I witnessed you know being the night of we had Jeff that was the police one he changed over with the day shift for uh for uh Yeah for Delta flight. They would he would come early and kind of just get the brief from what happened during the day shift so he could pass it on to us for our night shift operations and just you know and and vice versa he would do that for them the next morning and they had had the the you know the infamous red square up there on the north base by one of the launch facilities of the Boeing contractors and so you know

25:49 when Jeff came in briefed us all about it he said you know it's Vandenberg you know all this kind of weird crap happens all the time you know be be tonight you know just guys pay attention be hyper vigilant be you know alert you know you never know what had happened you know stranger things have happened. Um it was one of the unique times that I wasn't on law enforcement being a patrolman and a B doc controller I had a certification that if security ever was short they would farm us out to go you know be the area supervisors at some of the launch So I got stuck out at space launch complex space launch complex four as the area supervisor for the night. And so you know that's out on the southern end of the base right there at the ocean line. And so we we go out there you know it's like 6:00 at night we work from 6:00 to 6:00 I think or somewhere close to that at that time it's been 20 years ago. Um but we you know we go out there there's an entry controller who stays at the facility to make sure that everybody comes in that is authorized to come in they have a badge or or the credentials to come in. There's an external response team of two people that kind of patrol

26:50 the outside of the of the the space launch complex and then there's me and my partner who patrol the inside and things like that. Um I remember being close to midnight or or midnight chow at that point so we all kind of congregated down at the launch or the entry control point cuz that's where the microwave's at and that's where you know you get out of the elements and kind of can just huddle for for a short amount of time and eat your food and kind of catch up and things like that and kill the And I remember we're all in there and the entry control point is an elevated position so the roadway comes up so it's you know it's got a tactical advantage you can see if anybody's coming and it kind of overlooks the Pacific Ocean and we're all up there and we see a you know a light out in the distance over the ocean and you know which isn't uncommon because they have a helicopter squadron at Vandenberg that did you know ops over the ocean that just did search and rescue training and things like that. So you know it wasn't always uncommon to see that kind of stuff. Usually you kind of knew about that but you know sometimes you didn't. but you know so didn't think too much of

27:51 it at the beginning and then it just kept getting closer towards the entry control entry control point or the launch complex that kind of gets your your you know curiosity going like hey we weren't briefed there's operations going on out here so what's going on? And as the light kind of get closer to you the light kind of isn't able to be seen anymore you can just see this large square object. Um at that point we're all at in an oh you know pardon my French an oh moment is this real? Um kind of it's eerily quiet cuz everybody's just kind of in in shock of what's going on and it just keeps getting closer and closer and closer and as it gets closer you know the square turns more rectangular cuz you see how massive it is and it's just like the size of a football field and it's just kind of hovering right there at the coastline about 150 yards away uh you know in elevated position and at that point kind of all hell breaks loose. Everybody starts doing what they're trained to do. Someone calls it in on the radio that there's a an object hovering over the

28:53 entry control point. Um we spring into action. I know that we ran towards our vehicle to get in our vehicle the external sergeant goes out of the the turnstile and goes to get in their vehicle and you know this whole thing's about a minute minute and a half and then all of a sudden this this large object just takes off like a shot out of a cannon and goes north. And at that point you again you freeze you're calling in well it's gone it's it's it's no longer here and then you know whoever's at the the control center starts asking you all the questions that you've already asked yourself a million times but and then you're trying to calm down your adrenaline's going you know what color was it? How big was it? What did it have any identifying markings on it? And so you know trying to recall back onto it it was a dark object it's night time I can't say a definite color it was just dark because of where we were at there's not a lot of lights over the ocean the lights are kind of where we were at so you can see people coming in. Uh I can only describe it as square rectangular about the size of a football field. It had no identifiable

29:53 markings like our aircraft have on them, tail numbers and things like that. It had no propulsion systems. It had no lights as far as like a plane would have so it can see where it's going. It had no marker lights like the red or green lights. It made no sound whatsoever that you would think an aircraft makes. So, you know, helicopters have the the blades that that make the noise and when you have propulsion systems they make that kind of noise. It made no noise. And like I said it sat there for maybe a minute, minute and a half and then to describe how it took off, you know, I say shot like a cannon because it's just how fast it left. We're not talking like Star Wars light speed like where it blurs away but we're talking about something I've never seen in my life and anything we have in the military that can move like that or just hover like that without making sounds and be gone one minute the next minute again, I know Jeff got the other aspect of it being on duty and could hear what the whole thing is going on. You're kind of caught up in the moment focusing on what you can see and I'm sure that he

30:56 can elaborate how it sounded on the radio cuz all I could hear was the river screaming at each other. Before we we jump on to that then I I just want to for the benefit of clarity. So, when it when it was out to sea what color was the light that you could see? Was it Like a orangeish yellow. Orangeish yellow and then the closer it got that didn't seem to be emanating from a single point on it. It was just a Yeah, just a general object and that's what kind of what the heck is that? I've never seen that before in my life. So, was it was it kind of illuminated at all when it got to the base or did you feel like kind of the light had gone Just all you >> to you or You know, you all you could see was the light from the the post on the road which would kind of gave it an identifiable shape. Nothing on it was glowing lit or anything like that. Wow. And and what what sort of time in the evening was this? You know, we usually went to chow

31:56 between 11:30 and midnight just because that's kind of halfway through your shift. So, we called it chow so but that's kind of about the time it was So, it's it's pretty pretty dark in terms of ambient ambient light and then Yeah, so how I mean how did you feel? Obviously you're very well trained to deal with chaos and you're used to all of that kind of stuff but what how how does that affect you as a human, you You know, you second guess a lot of You're terrified a little bit because you know, at that point I might have been in I don't know like four or five years and can't really describe having seen that in my time. I had deployed at that point already and I'd never seen it from another country we deployed to. I had never seen anything in the the Air Force's you know, inventory that had anything like that and and the pure size of it alone where would you put it? You know, then you start thinking, you know, am I crazy? Did I really just see

32:56 that? And then but then you've got four other people thinking saying the same thing. Um little you know, definitely terrified like I said because what what is it? What is it doing? What how is it doing what it's doing? And then to leave the way it left, you know, in a in a state of shock and awe you can't really until you've seen it you can't really give it justice to describe it. Yeah, and that's the thing like if it had been a helicopter like an aggressive helicopter even like firing you know, yeah, there'd be chaos but there wouldn't be that terror. You know, you know, they're trained to you know, these guys have been you know, deployed and they've been through some that's what I heard play out on the And you know, I've listened to these people for years respond to real world dangerous life threatening situations and yeah, there's yelling and stuff but it's controlled. It's not panic.

33:56 You know, they don't panic even when things would provoke panic, right? And that was the thing. People were panicking on the radio because what was happening was Right? If it had been like three helicopters assaulting them, it wouldn't have been the same type of panic. You know, it'd be a more controlled focused reaction. >> not people run around screaming like trying to figure out in real time like what do we do? I don't know. Just run and get in your car. Do something. Yeah, like like you said you know you that what do I do? Like I don't even know what this is. >> Yeah. And and it and it went off north so it went over the base. As opposed to the I guess like where we're at you know, you're on the coast line so you're on the edge of the base and from like four you can kind of see up the coast line to where north base kind of is as far as the eye can see and that's the general direction it went.

35:00 let's jump on to you then Jeff. So, I know you you guys have told the story a lot but uh what what was that like from your end with your responsibilities and your briefings and and whatnot? Yeah, I mean that's the thing. It was so You know, it's playing out on the we've already had I've already had the briefing in the morning. You know, I know these people. I've worked with these people for years. I know it's not a joke. I've looked at the paperwork, right? And then you're you're in that frame of mind like we've got to go out to work tonight and there there was a real UFO in broad daylight flying over the base. You know, so the frame of mind like began there. I was like fully you know, engage I'm like I'm going to go hunt UFOs. But then when it started happening then it it becomes very real. And then you're hit like you know, you're hearing these people that are they don't panic

36:00 and they're panicking. And it's not just like them. It's calls were coming in from all over the base. People were a light you know, moving strangely. So, all this different traffic was rolling. But it happened so quick. You know, it played out this whole thing played out in minutes. You know, and then it's And then I'm up there talking to these guys and they're And and I think there was one female there if I'm right but I can't remember for sure. Yeah, I I don't >> And um I'm not even not thinking about it. I'm pretty sure whoever was the DCP was was a female. Yeah, I think that was a friend of ours. Yeah. And um Yeah, and you're you're looking at them and they're trying to explain, you know, and like I'm asking them what color, how big and they're like, I don't know, man, huge and weird. So, they can't Like there's nowhere to go with the investigation, right? I'm we're supposed to gather data. I'm taking statements. You know, they're writing basically what they experienced and it's a version of that.

37:00 We saw a light and then it a giant UFO showed up and then flew away. You know, and it's like what you you're just in a state of shock. You're like we're all looking at each other and then I'm like I don't know how long I was there maybe like an hour. I'm like, okay then I get in my car and I drive back and then it's all your other friends like, dude, what's going on? And I'm like I have no idea. And we're just talking about like what happened? And that's the thing. Psychologically there's there's no way to integrate what just happened back into the real world. And that's what people ask me like, well, what did you guys do after that? I'm like, we just went back to work. It's all you can do. All you can do is talk about Yep. Like there you know, and I I know I did go up to the desk and we listened to the dictaphone tapes. We listened to the radio cuz we recorded all of that. You know, and I remember I don't

38:01 remember I think I know who it was I did it with but we were looking at security camera footage. But a lot of it isn't recorded until an alarm is tripped. So, we didn't have anything. Yeah, as you said since we're Cuz we used to have hours of video of mountain lions jumping over our fences and they would trip they could jump over it was like 15 ft. They would just bump like it was nothing. And then they would be in our restricted area and we have to tell everybody look out there's a mountain lion get in your Yep. No, you can't shoot it cuz somebody always wanted to try to shoot go hunt the mountain lion. It's like, no, get it back in your truck. You're not allowed to shoot the mountain lion. So, yeah, there was just pretty accustomed to chaos anyway but then this thing just comes and smashes the whole rule book. So, so how how did that I mean what was the what did the day after look like for you guys? How did you know cuz obviously you're going to have people come in and read presumably the last night report and and be like, what the hell happened?

39:03 So, how how long did that kind of missing period go on for? I remember when we got relieved, you know, telling them and they're all like, oh, you guys are full of crap blah blah blah. And you know, everybody's like the same kind of amped up. You're like, no, man, like And then you know, I remember we got a It was either the next night or the next cycle we came in and they came in and they they briefed us said it was an unauthorized aircraft landing and I don't remember it landing and I don't remember anybody at the flight line patrol around the flight line saying anything land cuz the flight line wasn't It rarely was operational and when it was, we were pretty aware it was going on so that if something did come in, we knew it was coming in and didn't, you know, It's Vandenberg, so weird happen all the time. Yeah. And maybe who knows, maybe that thing flew north and landed on the flight line for a moment again like it did a couple weeks later. And that's why they

40:05 briefed that or maybe it was just a cover. Yeah, cuz an unauthorized landing is about as serious as it can get for an event on on an Air Force base, surely. Oh, yeah. So what what was but what came later was the I probably galloping ahead of things here, but like what what what how was this investigated? Was this like uh probably more for you this one, Jeff, but like what how do you send that up the chain and and what happened next? Yeah, so what the way the process works, so we go we're the first line investigators, right? So anything that happens whether it's you know, anything. We get there first, we gather the preliminary data. And then sometimes we'll turn it over to, you know, our detectives or OSI or whoever, right? So we get all that information, we get the statements, we prepare a police And our police reports were incredibly

41:06 And that was my thing. Like I used to drive these guys crazy writing these reports because I didn't want to lose cases in court. We had lost And it's like no, no, we're going to get all the data, right? So we would put that together and then that's all submitted and processed through our reports and analysis And then it's filed and it goes into different kind of databases and and things like that. And then everything is funneled up the chain of command uh through we have a reporting matrix. Like for DY, these are the people you And then we log all that, their names, who was contacted, all in the police which has all the, you know, pertinent information. Hi, baby. Can can I Thank you. She wants to be on the pod. So yeah, I mean, so every time these events happen, we did all that paperwork. And all this was notif like

42:07 shared up the chain of command. Like everyone was briefed. And this all went to the command post, which is the central command post for the base. And then they're responsible for up-channeling it to higher headquarters. So and me being familiar with like the notification matrixes, I actually developed them before I left. I I did 90 And we made a UFO one, too. Me and Joe my friend Joe that Jazz knows. Joe helped me do all that that that was a project that we did. We revamped all the for every emergency and made sure they were current, up-to-date. so yeah, it's like everything was officially reported, investigated, and and up-channeled. But our preliminary investigation is the only investigation I know that it occurred. I am because I'm not going to be privy to what OSI did. Like they're not going to include me. They might interview me, bring me in to ask me about like what me

43:08 and Jazz would have experienced that night, but we're not going to be involved in further investigation. So we don't know what they did after that. But we do know that NRO is operating on that base and other three-letter agencies. And what they do is data collection. So they've got to have data on on these events, right? They It would be incomprehensible if they did not. Mhm. So but nothing came down. Nobody said, "Okay, here's what because nobody knew what to do." Nope. Like my boss didn't know what to The commander doesn't know what to do. There was nothing like rules of engagement. I mean, I think we did discuss I did have a conversation I vaguely remember. It might have been at guard mount about like should we engage? And it's like if if the use of force matrix is violated, engage.

44:10 It's like can we get the law rockets out of the armory then? They're like, "No." You know, it's like then what are we going to do? I'm going to pull out my 9 mm and engage this thing? You know? So we didn't know nobody knew what to do or how to respond, how to mitigate it. We were just going by the seat of our pants. They would show up and we would just run around like chickens. Like we don't know what to do. Mhm. Yeah, because as as a a wider sequence of events, was it two and a half weeks later that it was it the same craft? It certainly sounded like it when we all last spoke. That came back and actually landed on the flight line. Oh, yeah, we Yeah, could be. It could be. And that's the thing as we talk more and more details, you know, come out. It's like, "Okay, maybe that thing that landed on the flight

45:10 line was a square." Yeah, cuz Because Grant Grant drew it And the issue is it was so brightly you know, it he couldn't quite see. He just saw this really bright light and then the outline. But and that's the thing like we had the red one and then we had the orangeish whatever colored one that Jazz saw it and then the light goes out. And then the third incident, the light stays on the whole time. Mhm. And that's a super brief encounter. This thing just comes in over a few minutes and it comes in and lands and then it's So by by the next one then, was there anything in place? Like was this still active smoke room conversation or or or what? Yeah, pretty much. We were just waiting for them to show up You know, and then you would forget and

46:11 then you cuz we got Vandenberg was busy. Yeah. You know, it was just we had a lot going on and like depending on the weather, we could have like five vehicle accidents like in a space of a couple hours, you know, or whatever. You know and all >> So you get back yeah, and launches all the time. So we get we would go like fall right back into work and you're busy. And then you're same time you're like looking for UFOs. You know, and then every once in a while somebody call in a light and then I'd start like, "Whoa, here we go." You know? Oh, you get the we'd be at law enforcement desk and people would be calling, "Are you guys launching things from?" And we're like, "No, we don't have any launches today that that I'm tracking." Well, something's just launched out of your base and you're Okay. Santa Barbara County call sometimes and say the same thing, "Are you guys active tonight?" And you'd be "Not at all." And we've got a lot we're getting more and more data on that from more people that saw the hearing. And

47:11 they're like, "Oh, dude, you know, they're they're writing emails like I remember this night Santa Barbara County Sheriff calling. You know, people reporting lights flying all over the base and down the coast and and it's like it's not us. You know, and they're like, "Well, who what is it?" We're like, "We don't know. We're we're looking, too." You know? So were were you guys interviewed by like OSI or or anything? Did you get the impression that somebody People definitely cared. Like people it's just they didn't know what to tell you to do about you know, they would come out and interview people. I think I did talk to My problem is I talked to OSI all the time. So I don't remember. It's like pro probably I had multiple talks with OSI about this stuff. But I don't remember. And I probably wrote multiple statements for them, too.

48:11 But we do remember that our friend Grant that saw the landing was definitely debriefed by OSI and it they were threatening, they were hostile, uh they were trying to intimidate him and they were suggesting he think carefully about calling in Wow. Yeah. And that was the first time that it And I think it it's because it was on a now air something landed on the base. That is different than something flying That was on the base. Yep. Right? And the tone changed. But it sounded like perhaps they had a bit more of a playbook for how to handle a situation like this or am I just being paranoid? >> Their their playbook was make scare people and tell them to shut up and not report the UFOs. That's the

49:12 It was like stop reporting it. >> And they're inferring if if you call in another silly light like another hopes, you're you're you might lose your gun, you're not going on your deployment, you might lose your clearance cuz we don't have time for jokers. And it's like, "Are we the ones joking?" We're not joking, right? Something is going on. Mhm. And up until that point, nobody had put that out there like, "Hey, you know, don't be calling in." It was like, "No, if you see a you UFO, call it in. We're trying to figure out what the hell is going on." And then one lands, and they're like, "Shut up about UFOs." Mhm. Wow. Yeah. And people did. Cuz there's a lot of It's not like there was five events. Yeah. They're all Stuff happened not regular. I'm not trying to say like this is all the time,

50:13 but there was a wave of activity during that time frame. And, you know, it might be like two guys here saw a light, and another day like five people saw something zip over a You know, and on and on. So, it just kept happening. But, these were like the most spectacular like, "Oh my god." moments. And the other ones were like more fleeting. Like, "Hey, we saw a weird light. Something went over the And those were typically at night because we were on night shift. Yep. So, we couldn't see what the hell we were looking at. We just see the light. You know. And every time it's like, "Anything on radar?" No. "Any balloons?" No. "Any aircraft inbound outbound?" No. Right. And then these things would get logged, you know, Viper two saw reported strange lights moving erratically. And all those blotter entries were made. Yep. And all of that is gone.

51:16 That's the thing. Like, why is the Air Force deleting Mhm. Our history. Yeah. So, so Chas, did you speak to AARO at all? I spoke briefly with Ryan Graves in a very like after he testified in Congress and and uh the red scare was brought up then, Jeff kind of re-engaged with all of us from, you know, prior conversations and remembering kind of like we're doing right now having conversations about it that, you know, "Hey, do you remember this incident happening? Do you remember that incident happening?" And it kind of got us all together to discuss this incident and Grant's incident uh because, you know, the guys that were on the law enforcement desk um we're just kind of like a a pretty close group of people cuz we all kind of work the same together for each other for same areas, worked together for several years. So, um and we've all kind of somewhat stayed in touch. So, it was easy to kind of track us down. But, uh just briefly talked to Ryan Graves in the beginning. Uh I think he talked to pretty much everybody about the same thing and and,

52:17 you know, Jeff being the point like the the lead point for that just has funneled information back to us that he's gotten from them. Yeah. But, not AARO. No, not AARO. You You You talked to him. >> Now, but what I did do, I provided uh I wrote up synopsises of each case, and then I gave it to each guy, each witness, and they went in and like, "No, that's wrong. That's wrong." And then I provided that to AARO and the FBI. I Well, maybe not to Yeah, the FBI, too. And Congress. So, they've had that >> on your own steam, or were you I did that Well, I No, I did that in conjunction with the official investigation by AARO. So, yes. So, so there was an official investigation by AARO that was not prompted by you. No, no, it was prompted by me. So, what happened was I went to Ryan Graves. Ryan Graves put me in contact with Congress. I did a mass briefing

53:20 with Congress on the events along with whistleblowers that are not public as far as I know. And then uh after that, I gave them the documentation, and then then I went to and then they opened the investigation, and then I provided them with everything. And then later, when the FBI finally came out of the shadows, and, you know, I was dealing with the FBI before they publicly came out and said they had a secret UFO task force, which they have one that is now public kind of um Well, it's now Yeah, I got I got in a hot water a couple of times. I I It's strange then, and I'm probably over-making the point, but I think that's fair. That given that you were the primary witness on one of these incursions, Chas, you'd think as part of AARO's investigation, if one even took place,

54:21 that they'd give you a call. No. Like I said, I I did the brief with with uh with Ryan who's one who got Jeff with them, and um kind of at that point I talked to a few people when we were out there in DC, but not not in depth. So. Interesting. So, it Well, okay. So, so to wind back a bit then. So, what What was it like for you going through the rest of your career and and stuff knowing that you'd seen something which was tech supposedly impossible? You know, it it makes you think long and hard about how you respond to things, what you see. Um definitely doing other jobs as I advanced and and went to other bases, you know, I was stationed in England for a little bit. So, I got to see a lot of different things there. Uh wasn't there at the time as of of all the things they've seen with the plane watchers,

55:22 you know, just it makes you think how you respond to incidences. It makes you think, you who believes if you call something in, you got to take everything credible. Uh when someone calls something in, you you got to respond to it no matter what, no matter how ridiculous you think it is uh just because you never really truly know what you're walking into. Um but, to be honest, as far as like the the the UFO part, you know, it, you know, after leaving Vandenberg, not putting a whole lot of never having witnessed it again in my life or or whatnot until it became public knowledge, and then the floodgates open. You remember you you you go back and you retrace it. You remember it, and then, you know, you talk about it, and then it kind of brings back those old feelings of, you know, this this actually happened. It's crazy. What did What did we see? Can we explain it? We're here our 20 years later, and we still can't explain it. Um and then all the things that are now happening and and they're they're more

56:22 public knowledge because people are more willing to talk about them now than they were back then. So, you're like, "Man, I'm not a lonely person, and, you know, what I did see was real." Mhm. Yeah, Professor John Mack from Harvard, he called what you just described the skeleton key effect. He'd say that people could have completely life-changing encounters with stuff, and then kind of forget about it sometimes 20, 30 years in the future that somebody would show them an image that reminded them of this thing or or mention a word, and it would just completely unlock the whole thing. But, it's it's funny you say it like that. Uh When Jeff had reached out to Grant and a couple of the guys, it was like, "Hey, get in touch with this person. Have them get a hold of me and and kind of funnel their way back to him." Uh I remember when I was when I first talked to Jeff, uh it'd been, you know, years. And he

57:24 said, "Hey, man." After we caught up and did all the catching up, it was, "Do you remember this incident?" And I was in a hotel room with my family cuz we're going on vacation. And like you said, it was like someone had unlocked a door. And my wife, you know, she was just "What are you talking about? What What the hell is going on here?" Because it was just like it was like it was all fresh in my mind again and and and talking to Jeff kind of how like we're talking now and like, "No, no, no, it was this way." Or, "Oh, yeah, like I remember that detail now." And she And she just I got off the phone, she was "We've been married to that time like 18 What the hell are you talking about?" And being like, "Yeah, uh that happened. So." Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing, man. That's why I have a lot of crazy stories, right? And not even UFO stuff. Like, we talked about the boat and Michael Jackson.

58:25 And, you know, you're talking about these things, and people call They're like, "Bullshit. This guy's making up all the you know, he he did this with Michael Jackson, blah blah blah." And I would go, "Oh, yeah." And I'd be like, "I'll get paperwork." We did a party at my house. I'd be like, "Here, yeah, UFOs are real." And me and these guys don't need to make up stories, man. You know. And that was the whole thing. Because we, you know, we we just happened like me and these guys happened to be at the right place or the wrong place at the wrong or right time. And then we would come back with these stories, and either other cops are like, "That didn't happen." And we're like, "Dude, go read the blotter. We had a wild night." You know, and they're like, "Oh my god, that did happen." It's like, "Yeah, man. We're not making it You know, we don't have to make it up." Whoa. Like, yeah. So, did it like trigger any interest in UFOs or anything? Or was it Or was it just another kind of Michael Jackson

59:26 night? You know, I mean, for me now, we're what? Almost 2 years after we reconnected over the incident like Yeah. I I I read more about it. I pay attention when I see it on the TV. Pay attention when they talk about it in Congress, you know, being on on on Twitter or X or whatnot and seeing all the things that develop there and and seeing other whistleblowers or other stories about what people experienced. Definitely, you know, I I pay I tend to pay a lot more attention about it now uh because, you know, not being the only one and finally people willing to come out and talk about it and, you know, having what seems to be the right people in some some key places now that that want to have transparency that that uh definitely makes it, you know, more interesting and and and gets my attention a lot more now. Uh so, have you got any kind of parting advice for anybody else perhaps that's been in your position? Cuz, I mean, if this is all happened just on Vandenberg

1:00:28 uh you guys have got so many bases all around the world that presumably this has been happening to guys like you for a long time in a lot of different places. So so sort of what would you say to those people? Well, I mean, me personally would tell you that it's, you know, if you saw it, it's real. Um I know that as a security security force member you're trained to report. So, keep a hold of anything you you any report you write, any blotter you write, um any of your old notebooks just so you have the documentation to back up your story because without documentation people tend not to believe you. Uh you know, Jeff has the documentation from what we're talking about. So, keep the notes, be thorough, and again, don't you know, don't be afraid to to come forward. I mean, the there's more people out there that have these these uh type of instances happen to them and people need to know about them because without that we can't get the right backing and we can't get gov- government and Congress and all them to do what they need to do which is not only it you

1:01:29 know, be transparent with us, but you know, start studying it, start trying to figure out what's going on, why they're doing what they're doing, you know, is it a threat? Is it not a threat? Those are the things as key military members that you need to know because, you know, we're trained that we talked about in the beginning. We're trained against conventional things, right? We're we're trained to do law enforcement, trained to do security, we're trained to go and deploy into wartime environments. But if this is something that we're now being, you know, faced with like you said, what's the playbook? What's the checklist? What what do you Without knowing what we're looking at and and and having studies of it, we don't have a good answer for that. And, you know, we need to have those answers and we need to be prepared as first responders to be able to do our job. So, please speak up. Please be be willing to to tell people what you saw. And again, always have your documentation. That way you're backing up just your words with what you actually have. You have an official police report, you have an blotter, you have your notes and things like that. It just it adds everything you need to

1:02:30 credibility and the backing to what you Yeah, 100%. And the and the other thing that's you know, we've we've been told by the government that some people have been injured by proximity to these craft or whatever they are, right? And that's not the claim coming from, you know, the community. That's coming from the government. Those are the people the CIA approached. Garry Nolan said, "We've got people that have brain injuries from close proximity to these So, if that's true and the government is is not lying about that then we need to know. You know, people need to know. Like that's a protocol. If you see a UAP and it gets within close proximity, stay Because you can get radioactive damage or whatever. Like right now we're just flying in the dark. We have no idea what we're dealing with. No idea how to respond or if it's dangerous

1:03:32 to nothing. And we're and we're not to talk about There is a legal precedent as well because John Burrows who was an American Air Force cop he was injured um during the Rendlesham incident and he's being paid out for being injured in the line of duty with this radiation damage. So, you just like you said, I mean, I'm sure you guys get briefed on not walking behind an F-15 or something like that because of the hazard rather than threat. Right. And and here's a proof of one of your brothers in arms being injured by this stuff. So, to deny its existence is is um a lot more serious than just it being an inanimate object. Yeah. And that's the whole thing. Like people like Chaz and all my other friends and all these other service members

1:04:34 that, you know, through no fault of their own they just have an experience. Like you just walk out for a cigarette like Dylan was saying. You know, he he just went out for a smoke and then there's a weird thing that shouldn't exist. It's real. And then it flies away. You go and tell you report. It's your duty. If you're active if you're in the military and there are objects flying over the installation, you have a duty to report And then their lives are destroyed. And that's the thing. It's like secrets are fine. But at what cost, right? And why? I- if these things are so secret then keep them away from us. Like keep them off of our bases. Then we won't have to report your top secret project and then you don't have to destroy my life and threaten my family

1:05:34 and ruin everything. Right? So, this whole idea just it doesn't make sense. Right? If these are classified black why do they keep showing like why are they flying over Chaz? Why are they flying over my house? Why are they flying over my other friends? Why are they flying over Langley? Why are they flying over the the ships? Right? It doesn't make sense. And then you're going to punish anybody that says, "Yeah, there was a weird object flying over the fleet." it doesn't make sense. So, either they're they're the story is that the government is doing this, it's our craft, our tech then why are they behaving like that? And then if it's adversarial or unknown, why are they ignoring it? Either way we have an enigma, right? Yeah, man. Did you ever feel like you

1:06:36 were in danger? I know it was brief, but did you feel like did you feel like you were under threat at any point or was it more like like what is going on? I I I don't think it was threat as much cuz I didn't know what the hell it was. It was more of what what is this? What's going on? What what are we looking at? What is it doing? And then it was gone. Before you could process is this a threat? It was more of you know, identifying what it was and then it was gone. And then, you know, having 20 years to kind of think about it, you know, you're like, "Man, I I did my job. I ran out to my vehicle. I was in a semi-protective state and I ran out to it not knowing if it was a threat. That's called after the fact, but when you're in the heat of the moment no. Well, that's right cuz you guys were in the in the building. CP and we you know, our vehicles were parked like the external sergeant's parked, you know, outside and mine's parked behind the entry control

1:07:37 point inside but outside of the point. So, you have to run outdoors to get in your vehicle. And again, you don't you don't even think about it. You don't second-guess it. That's what you're trained to do. And looking back 20 years later, you're like, "Dude, I don't know what it was." But, you know, I'm trained to go out there and respond. So, Yeah. I don't know whether or not. I guess that's just what you you you play how you you respond how you're trained, you know? But yeah, looking back on it, was it a threat? In the heat of the moment, I don't know. I just did what I was supposed to do. But looking back on it now, you're definitely like what, you know, I could have walked out there and didn't couldn't done, you know? Yeah. You deployed into into the unknown, dude. Uh Right? And you you weren't alone, Chaz. There was there was other people with you at the at the time. Yeah, it was whoever my partner was. I I I could have swore we've talked to a couple people. I don't remember, you know, I remember another another guy with the same last name. We we were, you know, the Kings and then uh I I don't know if if we if she wanted to

1:08:38 talk like who we thought was at the control point. I don't know if you guys have actually talked to her. So, I won't say her name. >> I haven't, no. Yes, I haven't. I know you talked to Nick and Nick said it wasn't him, but he remembers hearing all the radio chatter about it. And then you know, Steven or Eli or whatever, but he said no. But again, they remember hearing the radio traffic. But, you know, 20 years has gone by and then kind of like you said, not thinking too much about it and then here it is. Just remembering that there were there were five people in total with myself cuz you had the entry controller, my partner, and the two external people. Uh And the other thing I want to find out cuz we had um Fourth Infantry Division was attached to I I think it was during that time frame. Us. So, we had a bunch of Fourth ID I think a 12 I think we had a squad of them. Yep. And they might have been out there, too. Cuz we had them both on the gates and on security. Two years up. Yeah, so

1:09:38 Yeah, man. But that's what I am we're seeing happening now. They had air force as well. No, they were uh army fourth infantry >> They were they were augmenting us because we were deploying so many people. We still had a homeland or a home base mission, so they kind of our uh What are What are the I am I am A's kind of like our army base? They would they would come on active duty orders from the reserve units and and backfill us and be trained to do our So you would imagine or at least could imagine that there's they would have to report it through the army as well, then. No, no, no, no. They just might be witnesses. Yeah, they were they were attached to us, so they were Ah, so they're they're reporting to you and following your stuff. I'm just just wondering if there's another little leg of evidence out there somewhere. But but either way, it's still eyes on. >> I think for all the investigators out there that might want to watch this,

1:10:39 go to Santa Barbara County and and the local um towns in that area, Santa Maria, Lompoc police departments, and see if they have records that go back to that time frame. And because they were involved. They they were calling us, we were sharing information with the different counties because they were getting calls, too. You know, there's something flying around the central coast. So there there is data out there somewhere. You know, people just need to to get creative and think like where would that data be? Like I I've been told multiple times that I have a vague memory that it was in the newspapers, in the local papers like the Santa Maria Times and the Lompoc Record and things like that, but I haven't been able to find anything. And but a lot of it's behind paywalls and these these terrible websites. You'll find an article, then you pay to get into the article, then it's not the you know. Yeah, I I I

1:11:39 you know, I know you have found out through, you know, your contacts that the air force gets rid of things after X amount of years, you know, under under whatever rules they follow for record And I wonder if that applies to all the you know, cuz we up like you said, we upchannel everything through the command post to higher headquarters. I'm wondering if some of that stuff doesn't fall under those protocols because of the things they actually upchannel being more sensitive than the than just the you know, just FOUO law enforcement stuff. Because they would get calls, too, at the actual command post on their recorded lines about people calling in the same thing we're talking about right now, because that's where my wife She used to tell us about the same kind of things like, "Hey, so-and-so would call in that you guys lost a rocket or whatnot." And I don't know if theirs is different because of the the classification levels they keep it longer or whatnot, but that might be if someone's looking into it, a place to look, too. Yeah, good idea. Yeah. That's awesome.

1:12:41 Well, hopefully we can get you guys together on a call and and uh find a few more pieces to the Great. Yeah. Yeah, it And that's the the the beautiful thing. Chaz sent me a bunch of uh information the other night of all these people that we used to work with, that are brothers and sisters that we used to you know, they our our flight was like family. I mean, there there were no outsiders on the flight. Like we spent all of our time together. We spent our Christmases together, our holidays, weddings together. And it was like the best flight I'd ever worked on in the military. We were like tight. And um So and that's the beautiful thing. That's what gave me a lot of courage. I I was like, if I come out and all these air force people that don't know me are like, "This is and this guy's a It's like, "Bravo flight has got my They know me, I know them. Delta flight, too. I worked with Delta for a couple

1:13:41 years. I know all those guys, they know you know. So and and a lot of those people are coming forward now. They're like, "Dude, I remember." You know, and it's new information. You know, it's like, "Oh, okay." So the flood is coming, man. Like a lot of these people probably won't come out, you know, publicly, but the data's real, you know. So we're going to just keep on rolling this because what we're hoping is we you know, I suspect things like this have happened at other bases or at Vandenberg again after we all left. And people are just like us sitting there going, "What happened?" Cuz it it doesn't it doesn't resolve. Like you never stop wondering what happened to you. Or you just put it like Chaz said, you put it deep in the back of your mind, you get back to life, and it's just sitting there. And then 20 years later reminds you and it comes flooding back.

1:14:42 And now you're you're right back there again with all all the uncertainty, you Mhm. Hopefully we can get people to come out. Yeah. Going to say hopefully we can get unlocking a few people out there and and give them a team to to join, eh? Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. I I think that'll probably cover it for this one, then, guys. But but Chaz, it's been it's been great to catch up again, man, and looking forward to to next time we can. Yes, sir. Yeah, I'm so happy that Tom got to meet you and all the other guys still haven't met Phoenix yet, I don't think. We need No, she wasn't on our last call, I think. Yeah, but uh we're going to be doing more interviews like this to share with the public, you know, all these uh stories that I've been telling. We're going to get the the first-hand witnesses out to tell their their their story and hope we can encourage more people to come out. So thank you, Chaz, Always, man. But things are coming, Sounds good, brother. All right, man.