Citizen Hearing 2013: A Global Phenomenon, Part 2

0:11 Uh we are going to get started. The meeting will come to order. I want to thank the panel for being back again. This is terrific having the kind of international panel we have had uh today, this morning, this afternoon. The fact is um sometimes we only think about ourselves as opposed to what's happening in the world. So, I appreciate you being here. We all appreciate you being here and I thank you for your time and your patience. And with that we will start with this panel. This is a chance for you to ask questions in depth. And if we are good about it, we can go two rounds. You'll each have 12 minutes. So, if you take all 12 at once, that's okay. If you want to take six and then six later, you can do that. So, I'll try to keep track of that or you can help me take track keep track of that. And do I have anyone that would

1:11 like to start? I'll start. All right, Ms. Woolsey. Representative Woolsey. So, my question is to each each of you. If the United States becomes more releases files, uh and uh is more open about this this situation, the United States government, would that be a help or a hindrance uh to your country and our relationships with you? And why and how? Start down there. Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, I like to clarify for the record because a lot of people have a misconception that all these other countries have been wonderful and released all these files and the US has released nothing, which is totally not Uh I mean, you yourselves have been dealing with American governments like the the documents like the one about Peru and things like that. So, the US was actually the first country to

2:12 release UFO files. Just for the record, I want to make that. Doesn't mean that they've released, you know, hardware or final conclusions. I mean, I'm not saying they've released everything they have. But is it was the law, you know, the Freedom of Information Act, as you know, had been amended as a result of the Watergate scandal where you could sue the government. And uh and then uh it occurred to some people that uh because they had been these rumors that the CIA and other agencies had had been involved in ufology. For years, the US had said that only Blue Book, that's the only thing they had ever done about UFOs. So, there was a famous lawsuit around 1977 against the CIA for the for their files on UFOs because there was many indications that they had done this thing called the Robertson Panel in 1953, a scientific conference on UFOs. And uh there was a group formed called Citizens Against UFO Secrecy back in those days. I know the story very well because that's when I was getting started as a journalist in the subject. And uh they they sued the the CIA, you

3:15 know, because the law had been amended and now you could In the old days, you were at the mercy of the government uh like the British used to be too until they passed the the similar law where basically they would the government would release what they pleased and that and you had no recourse. But after Watergate, they amended that law. And so, this this group sued the CIA and the CIA knew that they were going to lose the case because there was enough evidence about at least the Robertson Panel. So, rather than go to court and be humiliated by a judge, they decided to, you know, cut their losses and they released a thousand pages of documents. And that made a huge front page stories. I mean, it was on the New York Times, on the Washington Post. It was a big story at the at the time. But now, there's kind of a amnesia. Uh you know, within and this partly the UFO community themselves are guilty for this because it's kind of politically correct to always criticize the US government and say that they are foreign governments are great. Well, it's the same thing. I mean, the Russians sure have released some things. Have they

4:16 released everything? No. And the same, you know, maybe some of the smaller countries might have released everything because they had less they, you know, less complex probably programs. So, I wanted to get that on the record on the on this hearing that and then that was followed by the FBI that released their files where they're currently in a thing called the vault uh and they're online. And then the Defense Intelligence Agency and everything. And so, um the US government has released stuff. there's still a lot of gaps. I think we've definitely would be helpful for everybody that everybody releases just about everything unless it was something of truly national security that would affect that country. But otherwise, too much secrecy it doesn't help anybody. Good. Thank you very much, Mr. We I figure we've got 2 4 6 8 minutes left. If you can kind of think in 2-minute segments, that would be I'd appreciate it. Ma'am, as my colleague has indicated, my understanding certainly is that the US

5:17 government's public position is that it has already disclosed its files. I'm not aware, given that the UK government is is nearly complete with its process of of releasing this material, that any further releases from America would either harm or or help our UK process. Thank you. Well, I I would agree uh especially with Antonio that I believe the Americans have sort of got a bad rap in this deal that basically everybody in the world is just releasing sighting files. Nobody's releasing file files, the real files, the ones we want to see. So, uh the the Americans have done that. In fact, I believe I'm maybe one of the few researchers who have written on this that the American government is actually leaking parts of the story using disinformation to cover Uh but I I don't think it's really going to affect the rest of the world. I think everybody is waiting for the Americans. The Americans are running the show and everybody's waiting for the Americans to make the first move. Okay. Dr. Shealy, please.

6:20 I think that if we can make everything public and such a high-tech is going to be shared by the all human kind in the world, this is a very good thing. However, generally speaking, that through our work and if we disclose all those UFO information or ET motion, it's it's going to be benefit the whole human However, every government consider UFO as a top secrets or defense secrets, different classification and all the national security. If they treat the issues as a UFO issues, purely UFO issues, that would be much easier. Otherwise, it's going to be very difficult. Thank you. Since Europe, Russia, Latin America, uh the Vatican, even China, which has a

7:22 an open attitude, after all, had some kind of disclosure attitude, why should the United States of America be different? there is definite reason from an historical point of view. Probably as the most important world power, the United States they feel a particular responsibility and they surely uh fear um that the UFO problem may cause a sort of uncontrollable reaction in the general So, this is a possible explanation for the cover-up, for this conspiracy of silence, if you like. But um I'm sure that since there is no longer the possibility to to cover uh all these subjects, the United States

8:23 will be obliged in the next future to do something because consider that the world power who will have the courage to say things as they were will be considered much more than all the others. And uh probably this is not yet And when this may happen, probably the United States may have something positive for themselves. Thank you very much. And with that, Madam Chair, I will reserve the balance of my time. Uh Representative Bartlett. uh thank you. Uh Mr. Cameron, uh you mentioned uh mental phenomenon. Is that related to the uh uh to an interest in consciousness? And could you explain a bit? Okay, let me give you the examples. I only figured this out a year ago. I I've known about the top secret memo and the reference to mental phenomena. When we uh later when it occurred to me what had happened, we, as I mentioned in my

9:24 testimony, we ran across Dr. Eric Walker, who was the former president of Penn State University. And during the uh interviewers were having with him, they were pressing him on MJ-12, who runs the cover-up, is it all Americans, is there more than 12 people? And Walker cut them off. This is 1991, 41 years later. Walker cuts them off and says, "Let me ask you a question. What do you know about ESP?" The interviewer from Britain had no idea what to say. Walker answered his own question. He said, "Look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in." He's referring to the control group. Very few people understand it. Then, 2 years later, Ben Rich, who ran Lockheed Skunk Works, and I can remind the Congress that you guys funded this all these operations, the U-2, the SR-71, the stealth fighter, the stealth bomber, the drones. This guy ran Lockheed Skunk Works. In 1993, he's giving a lecture to the UCLA engineering alumni. He stands up, and he The last slide that he shows is a flying saucer, and he says, "We now

10:25 have the technology to take ET home. We've discovered the mistake in the equation, and it's going to take an act of God to get this thing out of Congress cuz it's so deep black." Two of the people in the room were UFO researchers. They chased them out of the room realizing this was a significant point in history. And they said to him, "Mr. Rich, you said you've discovered the mistake in the equation. What are you talking about? What We're interested in UFO propulsion. How does it work?" And just like the Canadians in 1950, just like 1991, Eric Walker, Rich turns around and says to him, "Let me ask you a question. What do you know about ESP?" The one guy says, "That just means everything in time and space is connected." He said, "That's how it thank you. Mr. Pope, you mentioned air safety With the maneuverability these craft Do you mean that they're concerned that

11:25 they would be hostile or that they'd accidentally run into us or vice versa? Well, sir, it's more the uh it's the possibility of a collision between a commercial military aircraft and whatever these UFOs might turn out to be. That that was the concern. And and I mentioned that there are on case file a number of uh near misses. Indeed, I believe a new case was publicized in in mainstream media just 2 days ago. But there's never been a collision. Uh not in the UK, sir, no. And I mean, a couple of near misses that were close enough that the pilot uh flinched and called on one occasion, "Look out. Look out." But no collision. Thank Thank goodness. Yeah. You mentioned um electromagnetic propulsion. Does that include I I don't know, sir.

12:26 Oh, that was Jacques Vallée who mentioned that in his report. You mentioned elec- uh electro-magnetic propulsion. Uh that was in the French report uh about the Trans-en-Provence case, yes. And I I think they had found that if if they can show the slide of the Rockefeller um from the briefing document, uh that was in their conclusions. That's the one. Conclusion, I don't cannot probably cannot read it too well from here, but uh yeah, there you go. So, this is the the the the landing case in the farmer's field in uh Trans-en-Provence in 1981. Conclusion, physical phenomenon of unexplained nature, high probability of electromagnetic mode of propulsion. And this is an official chart from the French space agency. So, that's their conclusion. I also, since you had asked about the near collision, I I might as well add that that's as I explained in this morning's testimony, that again was one of the main reasons of the Chilean committee, CEFAA, uh

13:27 to ensure air safety operations. That's part of their mission. And in their files that they have released in the radio pilot communications, they have also a couple of cases of near collision, which you can actually hear because they posted the the audio tapes on their website. There was a case in Puerto Montt in the south of Chile in uh where you can literally hear it's in Spanish, of course, because it's in Chile. You can literally hear the pilot freaking out because this object he's this object unexplained. He's called it control tower saying, "What is that object? Do you have traffic?" The control tower gets back to him, "No, we have no scheduled traffic." He said, "Well, this thing is almost about to crash with me." And then the people at the control tower, this object hovers near the airport, and so it was seen from the ground, not just by the pilots. Then the the the personnel at the airport was able to see this object hovering uh over the airport. And And of course, there was a not a near

14:27 collision, but there was a a famous similar case at the O'Hare O'Hare airport in uh in Chicago in 2006, I believe it was, uh which was quite significant seen near the American Airlines terminal. And it only leaked out because the I think it was the Chicago Tribune got wind of it, but there was the FAA never made any kind of official investigation or or comment. So, that is a problem that uh regardless of what UFOs are, regardless of their origin, yes, they can pose a threat. And then General Bermúdez, the head of the committee in Chile, also made another point. He says, "Even if it's not an immediate near collision, uh the pilot might get distracted because he's seeing something that is not supposed to be there. So, it's maybe that he's not going to crash with the airplane, but instead of concentrating on flying his airplane, he's being distracted by an unknown object that is somehow, you know, getting near him. So, these are among the reasons that uh this subject should be investigated by the civil

15:29 aviation agencies, which of course Chile is doing, but it should be done in other countries as well. The uh story this morning of the uh pilot uh chasing this UFO, and I think I heard that uh in spite of how big it was and how obvious it was, it there was no radar track. Um I don't I think that's what I remember hearing. Yeah, I'm not sure of that, but I might as well add uh there's another very significant case which happened in Iran in 1976, which again was revealed by American uh defense attaché documents. That's how the case became public, very famous case. Uh the the the pilot at the time was a captain, eventually became a a major general in the Iranian Air Force. In fact, he came and testified at a previous uh symposium here at the National Press Club. He was the pilot that the same thing. This huge UFO object was flying over Tehran. This was in the days of the Shah. So, the US had very good relations, as you know, with Iran, and

16:30 that's how they got all the reports. That in uh but the difference there is that um as he was instructed again to fire at this object because the object was not responding, was not identifying itself, since suddenly his a all his weapons control panel was jammed. And he could not fire. The the thing wasn't working. The electromagnetic communication, the radio, everything was malfunctioning. This was an F-4 Phantom jet. And then, according to this pilot who later became a general, uh he said that from the UFO, like a little object came, like the UFO was responding. That's as close as an actual combat between a UFO, and And it's all documented by the US government. There was even an evaluation by the Defense Intelligence Agency, which was later declassified, that called it an outstanding UFO report because it validated the existence of UFOs. This in the words of our own government. And they list all the reasons why because it was it was multiple witnesses. Some of the witnesses were very high-ranking

17:31 generals. Uh two airplanes had been scrambled. One of them had the malfunctions. So, this is real. Now, where did that UFO came from and what was its purpose? We don't know that. But that the object was real, there's there's no question about it. Uh if it's true that these things can and not be affected, then somehow they might be able to absorb radar and have no reflection? Yes. Well, for many years, researchers in ufology have known this, and it's referred as the electromagnetic effect. There are many cases involving cars. With airplanes, it's more worrisome because a car can stop in the middle of a close encounter, and nothing will happen except inconvenience. But uh if you're flying an airplane and your electrical system, you know, your engine stalls, you're in trouble. Uh but it's it's so they with airplanes, it's not as common, but there've been cases, although not not crashes. Or perhaps, but I mean, I'm not a right now aware of crashes. But with cars, it's fairly

18:32 common. And this was referred even in the '50s as the electromagnetic effect. It is assumed that the UFOs emitting a field of energy. And this field of energy then will interfere with electrical systems. And uh the even blackouts have been many cases of power blackouts, even the even the major blackouts, even in the United States, there were reports of UFO uh ca- you know, sightings near the the power station where the blackout was triggered. There was in fact as a matter of fact, in Argentina, a case in 2009, uh which made some some headlines, where there was a blackout in in a town called Joaquín González in in the in the in some province in Argentina, right now I forgot which one. And um uh well, most people just, you know, had a power blackout, and then they saw this cigar-shaped object hovering over the city. But there was a reservoir with a power dam nearby, and one of the witnesses was fishing because people go

19:32 there for recreational fishing, and one of the witnesses said that saw this disk hovering over one of the transformers, and there was like an exchange of energy between the UFO and the and the transformer, and as this energy exchange was happening, boom, there was kind of a like a flash, and then the whole area went uh dark. So, there is definitely an electromagnetic effect, but uh it needs to be more studied more in depth, for which we need resources to do Is there any What are the suggestions as to what the energy source is that these craft use? I'm not really a engineer, you know? I mean I'm a science reporter, so I can give you a general idea, but they will have I think tomorrow is or there was a session about technology. Did it happen already? I forgot. But, there is supposed to Yeah, tomorrow. Tomorrow there is a session of technology, where you will have people that would be more qualified than me. Uh

20:33 there's been I mean all these terms, anti-gravity and things like that have been used, you know? But, but you better get a response from someone more qualified than me. For the technical for the real technical details. But, I can give you a just a general idea. Thank you very much. My time is up. Thank you. Thank you. Uh Congressman Cook. Thank you. I'd like to resume with Grant Cameron and uh talk about the Wilbert Smith files. Wilbert Smith was the Minister of one of the worked for the Ministry of Transport. Uh He was a senior radio engineer and he later became superintendent of radio regulations for the Department of Transport. Okay. In Canada, of course. So, thank And uh this file on UFOs was begun about 1950. Am I The official government file goes from 1950 to 1954. His personal files, he died 1962, became public in about 1982. His son released them to the University of

21:34 Ottawa. Okay. Thank you for that, because I wanted to check for sure on when he died. That was about 20 years before those files were released. Correct. Okay. You've obviously looked at what's in those released files. Yes. What is the very best evidence in those Wilbert Smith files we've just been talking about? The very best. If you had to take one specific incident or the very best you can think of of an ET association with an unidentified flying object. That And then I'm going to ask In fact, or let me put either any kind of ET association or body found association. Okay. That's That's the testimony I presented today. The best we would have is the question that Wilbert in his files asked to Dr. Robert Sarbacher in Washington in 1950 about the validity of

22:35 the crash saucer book released in 1950 and he gets the response, the facts in the book are substantially correct. Now, Wilbert had a lot of interaction. There were there was contacts. They were in contact with an alien, the same one that the CIA was in contact with. There's a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes. But, in terms of an actual document, in terms of the actual material that's the hardest evidence is the material that he got from the Americans in 1950, which he used to write the top secret memo, which he sent to the Deputy Minister of the Department of Transport asking for funds to research propulsion of UFO propulsion and he was given authorization and that project ran till 1954, when this overflight of the flying saucer station took place and they shut the program down and made the statement, there's nothing to it, no ETs, all that stuff. document uh In other words, the best evidence of of some of of uh of of a body found

23:35 is what was what was spoken between Dr. Sarbacher and Wilbert Smith? Is that what I'm to understand? In terms In terms of And And is that in one of those documents that was released? Well, it's in his It's in the I I released you today Smith's handwritten Yeah. interview of the interview that he did in 1950 and it's later substantiated by Robert Sarbacher, who says, there were reports of instruments or people operating these machines, cuz he was questioned after Wilbert Smith died, people like Stanton Friedman started looking for him and he says, I remember in talking with some of the people in the office that they got the impression that these aliens were constructed and he talks about what the aliens look like. And he mentions in the room where Von Braun, Oppenheimer, a number of the top scientists in the United States in 1950 were telling these stories. So, Sarbacher confirms the fact that he talked to Smith in 1950 and that he confirms in the letter that there were alien bodies involved. I appreciate your answer and that's what what you just described is what you feel

24:36 is the best evidence of the question I Yes. Okay. Um Okay. To Nick uh Pope, I'd like to ask you while you were working in the Ministry of uh of defense in the UK, did any of your superiors uh tell you that part of your job is to ridicule uh English citizens or or any UK citizen who had filed a report or a sighting that was Nobody told me to do that directly, sir, but there was certainly um a a sort of unofficial policy. When you're respond to media inquiries, the press office would deliberately slip in terms such as little green men and flying saucers to disparage and downplay the subject. And uh they haven't told you what to say as a private citizen, have they? Uh no, sir, but when I've written books,

25:40 which I have in the past, I've had to submit those for official security clearance. Okay. Now, I'd like to turn to our witness from the People's Republic of China. Uh Dr. Shi Li You, said what I think are truly interesting things, when you say that the majority of the people of China absolutely believe not just in UFOs, but in an extraterrestrial source of uh of the UFOs and they believe in aliens. In fact, you make a statement in your you made a statement earlier in your testimony that uh that you put the existence of aliens right in with UFOs as something that's clearly what certainly you believe it. I understand that. And you talked about five events of uh what you called third kind And I'll repeat those from your testimony a few hours ago.

26:41 Uh the Phoenix Mountain event. I want you to listen to these events carefully. You know them well, I'm sure. The Phoenix Mountain event, the uh crop ease event, the Beijing Soul Kong event, the River Forest event, the Mayang alien research station event. Of I take it those are the uh the top maybe the some of the top five of of of of all that the China has gathered, which has been amazingly Give us an example from one or two, if you'd like. And I want to know the best thing you can tell us from any of those events you've already that would give us some sense that there's an extraterrestrial origin to these sightings and to these or that there are bodies or aliens alive or dead from these. Okay?

27:45 Uh I would like to talk about two, the first one and the last one. The first one is the Phoenix Mountain event. This is northeastern China. There is a farm there and a ranger saw a flying disc within 100 m. And he felt really uncomfortable, so he tried to stay away from that flying disc. And he and his cousin felt that. I don't I hate to interrupt, but give us the year of this or the time for the central time. In 1994, in June 1994. Go ahead. Continue, please. So, on the second day, this uh ranger led a dozen of people from the same farm trying to find that flying

28:45 disc again. And what happened was that there was a strike lightning coming from the sky and he was attacked by this lightning. Right on his head. So, he fainted. And during the time that he was out, he felt that aliens were communicating with Uh he had a lot of physical reactions and uh he claimed that aliens had implanted some objects into his body. And after that, this alien uh also had uh a sexual contact with him. And after that, he was told that uh this sexual contact is a very anything, but I do Anything think refer

29:46 to that which shall something that could make the Chinese government or any other government aware of of some of of of any of this to make to make this story so far which is pretty significant story of course but to make it uh accepted by Does the Chinese government know about this story? Let me put it that way. And have they have they commented on it and have they what evidence has been given to them about the story you just outlined? Well, we have a lot of evidence in this event. We have gathered more than 100 people and conducted more than a dozen of investigations. We have Uh we have used um lie detectors to test verify the truthfulness of the uh these the things that uh these people

30:48 are claiming. So, we have gathered uh information and we have done in this area. And uh so uh in this uh in incident, we have seen this very special interaction between aliens and be your prime case rather than say the Beijing so-called event uh as as terms of the question as which is your best evidence of of extraterrestrial involvement or an alien or what you certainly described You've described aliens a little more in with with more activities anybody else has described them in the three or four days here and so I just want to know to what extent the Chinese government is really aware or believes it or and that doesn't necessarily prove it one way or the other by any means but I just want to know where documentation can be where we can start working on this case because it's kind of an interesting one.

31:49 Very interesting one. Right. The Chinese government I think they know. Because this incident was very very within the country. Everybody knows. It's it's hot it's very popular. It was uh reported everywhere. But after uh more than 10 years of research and uh investigation and verification as well as evidence uh which included uh the uh tracks that uh the USO the UFOs have left in the mountains and the trees and the plants that were uh destructed by their landing. We have gathered all those And we have also brought uh scientist to I appreciate it. Thank you for your testimony. Uh I'd like to reserve the balance of my time. Thank you. Thank

32:52 We're down to you represent Yes. Not I'm sorry. Senator. Uh I would like to address uh First of all, I'll have a question for all of you but uh uh following on following what he was just saying uh what is the reaction of your government towards the transparency of this whole subject? As we know the US is very deficient and probably the highest standard we've run across thus far is Uruguay where it's so transparent that they even go to the effort to educate people in school uh with Air Force personnel. Uh in China, what is is the government transparent about this? Uh is there an official position in that regard? What would what's what's your government Okay, let me begin first then.

33:54 our government my government in in a lot of international conferences a lot of a media workers have asked me about this questions. Okay, my answer is this. This is to be open and to be objective. And be pragmatic. And another thing is that being cautious. That is very um that's this is a very the position is that to be cautious. Well, the reason that we need to open up is because the China is going through the opening up and the transparent. So, under this kind of circumstance we can uh talk about this. And also the government is not very strict about keeping everything secret. For example, um in the Air Force that they have the contact with the UFO and uh we have interview on all those of the stories and they told us truthfully of their their encounter. And sometimes the military when they don't understand of some certain situations, they even

34:54 come to us they consult us. So, they will will we will we will try to relay some of the information on UFO to them. And and however, we still be very cautious and vigilant as well. They don't want to take a non-scientific way of approach of studying UFO. They don't want to mix with anything that is not scientific. So, they don't want any distractions. If only a purely a UFO incident or ET incident and then government will not interfere with any investigation. They will give us more lax situation. That's commendable on part of your Um well, I just have one general question and and I apologize for excusing myself earlier. is anybody familiar with the Dr. Wood a a woman PhD uh on directed energy? She has written extensively about the use of directed energy uh to bring down

35:54 the Twin Towers on 9/11. Uh are any of you or maybe this is a question for the uh scientific panel tomorrow or certainly my colleague here but uh has any of you run across the issue of directed energy with respect uh to uh the UFO or or the energy that obviously they possess that we don't uh for propulsion and I'll stop with my colleague from Italy. A consideration may be done in the case of unidentified submerged Uh as far as we know when they are in the hydrosphere these well, they do not are in direct contact with the water. It seems that they are covered by a sort of uh pillow of energy and this prevent any contact with

36:56 the shell with you understand with the And probably what uh Antonio News said before is to be connected with this. It's the same kind uh of propulsion mean. A sort of electromagnetic propulsion which uh permits this objects to um move in any kind of environment. Deep space without any kind of atmosphere like our astronauts said. Uh any kind of atmosphere ours or any other planets. And of course also a more dense environment like water. So, as far as we know probably there is a definite pattern in all this uh um in the possibility of an electromagnetic anti-gravity

37:56 Um frankly, we still have to learn a lot about this. Thank you. Any other comments on that uh Uh Senator, yes. Um with apologies for not having printed this off for the committee but it was 468 pages. I can supply a hyperlink. We accept that part. All right. Though the Ministry of Defense uh were talking about the possibility that some UFOs were exotic plasmas, three sentences uh might be directly relevant uh to your question from Project Condign's final report. It says, "There is evidence from openly published scientific papers that scientists in the former Soviet Union have taken a particular interest in UFO phenomena. They have identified the close connection with plasma technologies and are pursuing related technologies uh for potential military purposes. Uh For example, very high power energy generation, RF weapons, impulse radars, air vehicle drag and radar signature

38:57 reduction or control, and possibly for radar reflecting decoys." Uh Antonio, please. Yes, Senator. Just wanted to add that one of the first people that looked at the propulsion systems of UFOs is one of the most qualified uh persons because I was Professor Hermann Oberth who was one of the fathers of the space age. As you know, the space age has three fathers uh Tsiolkovsky in Russia, Robert Goddard in the United States, and Oberth in Germany. He was the mentor of Wernher von Braun. and uh he later worked for us too like many other German scientists from Operation Paperclip and that whole episode. But Oberth in the '50s became very interested in ufology. So, the one of the guys that invented rocket he he wrote the classic book about a rocket the rocket into interplanetary space. This was published in Germany in 1922, long time before the And uh so, he was a he was a brilliant man. I actually I'm honored that I met

39:57 him when he was like something like 96 years old. I didn't speak German, so I cannot say that I interviewed him, but at least I had the pleasure of meeting one of the fathers of the space age. I had to go to his house near Nuremberg. But, he had um he wrote some some papers some articles uh and um and obviously he was eminently qualified. Uh the technical things I don't I would have to look at my notes, so I I don't want to to speculate. One of the things he had to say though is like in uh because of the maneuverability, you know, the change of course and 90° changes turns and things like that uh the the the pilots or whoever beings were inside these objects had to be shielded from the rest of it. Otherwise, they would be crushed to death, he said. And these were in some papers he wrote in the 1950s. So, uh actually in the in the Rockefeller briefing document that I co-authored in in the quotation section, we do have uh some key quotes from Hermann Oberth. But, if you're interested, I can uh get

40:59 you some other articles that he he published about this subject. Uh there's another American scientist who used to work for NASA a Paul Hill, I believe was his name, who wrote a book after his death uh I think his daughter had found these notes or whatever and it was called unconventional flying objects. And that's a pretty serious sober highly technical discussion of propulsion. So, there's been many people that well, not many, but there have been a few uh qualified people. There are some less not qualified, you know, I would disregard those, but I I least there are a few um there was another German who used to pseudonym Rose Sigma who wrote a published called ether technologies. Uh that was not his real name. I think his real name was Schneider Franken or something like that. I think he had maybe worked in Peenemünde also. Uh Gordon Cooper the astronaut Gordon Cooper knew him. Gordon Cooper was very very much interested in the UFO And uh so, yeah, there are several

41:59 leads. Although, I'm sure that there plenty more, but that would be classified. Great. Thank you very much. Madam Chairman, I've I've I reserve the time or share the time with anybody who wants to use it. All right. Congresswoman Kilpatrick. Thank you, Madam Chair. I was happy to hear in this afternoon session after 3 and 1/2 days being here that Mr. Huneeus Pope and Cameron did say the US has participated a bit. I've been led to believe up until an hour ago that we hadn't done anything and that we were the big bear in the room. So, I'm glad to hear that you acknowledge that we've done something. Yes, absolutely. Um you further went on to say uh the CIA was sued and released theirs in 1977. I think you said that, Mr. Huneeus, which is good. I don't want you Yeah. This is a little editorial right here. That's all. then FBI did follow suit later and released it. I think, Mr. Cameron, you

43:00 said yeah, they released it. They're sitting files, but not the real thing. I think my my question on all of that releasing of the files and I'm glad they did it ordered by the court or otherwise and that you all acknowledge that that's good for our country to know that. For us here on the panel for sure. Did they acknowledge uh do they believe that UFOs are real or not? Did they address the after releasing the files or they just gave you paper and you had to shift through them? I know we didn't get the meat to want to get, but did they say one way or the other whether UFOs are real or that extraterrestrials are a real phenomenon? Well, I mean, the problem is that the files they released are sort of the mundane files like like granted the sighting files or they're very old historical files. means that they sighted something Correct, but but what we would want to see is some kind of conclusion. And those kind of documents seem to be included. Yeah, I mean, there are some conclusions for instance in the Condon report, which was this this famous project by the University of Colorado,

44:01 but that was distorted too because that would they wanted to close Blue Book. Now, some of the case histories in the Condon report are are are valid. And I've actually about 30% of the file of the case histories in the Condon report are unexplained. That that's how much you will find in the US files that there are a certain percentage of cases that are unexplained. So, how do you how how do you sum what they released and do you know of a US can we conclude a position from our government on this issue based on what they released with CIA or FBI? It's the truth is it's confusing. Uh I mean, some people like there is a Colonel John Alexander. He was involved in some study in um at the Pentagon in the 1980s. So, this would have been much um much later, you know, when there wasn't Blue Book all that was all history. And he claims uh it was not a formal project in the sense that, you know, they were for you know, they had to issue reports and things, but it was it was obviously tolerated by his

45:02 superiors. And they went around and they briefed a number of people including high-level people like admirals and generals and uh General Abrams um the head of um the Star Wars SDI project and people like that very high-level people. And he wrote a book about this, so I'm not revealing anything that is unknown. And he claims so, they would brief these people because they this group of scientists that were all had clearances and were working within the the Pentagon or the military industrial complex uh would brief these generals and stuff because they thought that there was some kind of big project going on according to Alexander. And then what what would happen uh if you read his book is that the most of these generals or admirals say, "No, we don't have anything. I mean, we have no project." Uh so, that was the official record. But, he he he tells in his book some anecdotes that then after the official meeting was was over then the admiral would come and and whisper to him, "But, let me tell you about my sighting." Okay. So, this is the kind of stuff you of soft, but there was something. I

46:03 would say there was something. Mr. Cameron, thank you very much, Mr. Um you said Miss Mr. Cameron that we're waiting for America to make the first move. What move would that be or what do you speak when you say that? Uh the move to disclosure to identifying the fact that it's an ET phenomenon or whatever it is. Um I I have heard stories um from other governments sort of off the record they were asked "Will you disclose?" and they said "As soon as the Americans disclose we'll be a close second." So, I've heard stories like that. That's where I think the Americans sort of especially when it comes to NATO. If you take a look at the NATO thing, America is basically the main thing in NATO. Everybody sort of takes their lead. They they have a lot of power. I think it's the same thing in in this field that So, the world is waiting for the US to say yay or nay on policy or determine what the

47:04 We set Well, the policy is basically sort of being set by the Americans that I thought the I thought the Americans hadn't done much on it. Well, they have I mean, as I say, I think they've disclosed stuff. They have I mean, they and they have disclosed a lot of documents. I mean, if you get the documents the Clinton Library has disclosed thousands of pages of right, right. And so, I mean, there are documents. It's the official conclusions. It's the official what the actual Yeah, like like the real top secret documents you won't find no matter what country you go to. And our country has not concluded uh It it's still on the position that there's nothing to it. And every every other Well, that is a position. That is a position. If you've said if they've released the files under court order CIA and FBI Under FOIA. You can get a lot under And they they also sued them you know, 1977. Yeah. So, they have concluded. They released some and they've concluded there is none. That's the official That's their official conclusion. Yeah. All right. Then then okay. That's good. Dr. Shelley, I'd like to spend rest of my

48:05 time with you just a bit before I yield Uh tell me about the Chinese UFO Federation. Is it an Unrelated to the government? What What is its mission? So, the Federation of China Yes, it is an NGO. This is a private uh What is the work of the Federation? Uh one of the remote just that Our mission is that in the field of uh UFO we conduct scientific research. And in recent years that the what a senator have asked, we have conducted many scientific research. Taking example that I have in uh in in the in the conference in the there was a General Corso Colonel Corso. He is also a very famous expert on the uh case. And he worked in the

49:07 Department of a Defense Pentagon Pentagon. And then after what he have to said that he impressed me and helped me. And then he gave me a book on the book on the Roswell. And he says that for uh Professor Soon my greatest friend. I believe that a person like you will be help everybody to create a new world. This was from a former Pentagon uh official who so excited after learning about our scientific research we have a technology to turn water into anything into fuel into food turning stone into food and into food. We're researching on these new technologies. We have many new things new scientific research like this. We're now trying to find where aliens come

50:09 from so that we can be inspired by them in the scientific area. when saying that we do have some scientific research and results in some particular areas already. Why did I say that we all have this nature to find our roots. I think that's in our DNA. Uh very much involved in is the China UFO Research Institute established in 1980. What is it? How does it work? What is its mission? Yes, the mission for this institute is to explore UFO issues scientifically. We go to conferences and we also are interviewed constantly by international as well as domestic media.

51:11 I mentioned the AP CNN BBC. This institute has been interviewed with by all these media and personally I have been interviewed many many times too. So actually there are two folds. People who are engaged in this these institute. First they are personally very interested in this topic but also we have experts who are experts in areas such as how to make airplanes and astronomy and science. These experts use their expertise to do research. That is why this institute has been commended by the society. Well originally some people think that this is just for chitchat but we have elevated topic this issue onto

52:11 a higher level where we talk about how learning about UFOs, learning about aliens can help us solve environmental problems and health problems. Health problems. And are is the federation or the institute located in any other countries outside of China? Do you have branches anywhere else in the world? we do have branches outside of China. other places and then they're not necessarily called an institute or a federation. They are called maybe called a UFO club or So through these branches we can In fact we are interacting with aliens

53:15 They carry on the missions of both of the federation and of the institute, Question. Yes, they do. They carry on the programs. Right, similar. Particularly we have a world Chinese UFO I'm the chairman for that all right sir federation so How do you last question for me. How are how are the institute and the federation funded? How do you operate? I've got a minute left and you've got it. How are you how do you carry on your program? How are you funded? Well about funding we are purely a private NGO. Well the government is very busy. They don't have time to take care of us. So well symbolically they give us very little funding. So I have a very very tough job.

54:16 Because I have to think about how this federation and how this institute can survive. I have to find the funding. Some scientists and inventors have to prove that their research is viable and that's my job. I have to let people know that what we're doing is viable so that we can find enough funding but I can tell you that it's very difficult. I'd like to know if any of you tell us the panel whether in any of the disclosures you're aware of from government entities or from non well it have to be government entities obviously. or from the United States. It doesn't have to be your government your country any government where gun camera footage

55:17 or files on analysis of materials have ever been released. Go ahead Mr. Pope. The United Kingdom certainly did have some cases where military jets were sent up to intercept UFOs being tracked on radar. Similar to the Peru incident that we talked about this morning. Correct sir. Okay, go ahead. Um some gun gun camera footage was taken and certainly I'm I'm aware of on the record testimony from former MOD officials saying they've seen it. To the best of my knowledge none of that material has survived and I've not seen it personally but it was certainly existed at MOD. So it's not released if but you know it exists. It it it existed. I believe it's lost or Okay. Well let me ask this final if I have 30 seconds. Uh Yes. Is anybody aware of of a let me get this question in please anybody who

56:17 Is anybody aware of of a military person or a contractor for the military that's been released from a secrecy oath that they might have taken on the subject of UFOs from any country again your own or the US or any other In the case of Italy we had in San Marino in 2000 the chief of the Reparto Generale Sicurezza of of the Italian Air Force who came in uniform to have a presentation of the UFO data of the official UFO data in the San Marino Congress. This man today is retired and would have been here if possible. He did not come because he told me he signed a sort of for 20 years not to speak

57:18 on this subject even if after all what he said in San Marino in 2000 is open. And this is curious. Anybody else so I can give you just a quick example I mentioned I think in my testimony Dick D'Amato who worked for years Senator Byrd was given authorization to go to Area 51 to see if they're spending money on flying saucers and Aurora and all this kind of stuff. He met with Elfredo Donnell. He offered him complete clearance from any sort of oaths he had taken and El Donnell refused to talk but Dick D'Amato did make that been an offer There was there was an offer he refused to talk. We're out of time. Thank you. I have a couple of quick questions hopefully. from and will anyone can answer. I'd like to hear from all of you if we can do it short short period of time.

58:20 What are the practical steps that we can do to take this issue forward? And um is an international cooperative like the United Nations a possibility? Yes, there is a possibility. Okay. Um you know that the Granada resolution was simply frozen. And any member states member state of the United Station could take this resolution and to put it into the agenda. Then we would have a vote from United Nations and we will see if by case this uh commission permanent commission for UFOs in the United in United Nation may be created or not. Personally I tried to do something with the San Marino Republic with the San Republic of San Marino which is a member state of the United Nations but

59:22 frankly I had some problem we had some problems because the first question they asked me is okay but what do you think the United States government may think about this? I have nothing else to say. Nathaniel? The UN of course would be excellent in in my conversations with the different heads of the South American agencies. They're eager because, you know, they feel that okay, they have these programs which most of them have started recently except Uruguay who were the pioneers. Right. but uh but they have nowhere to report. So, I mean officially, uh some place where the data could begin to be officially and legally marshaled in one single place. So, that that that would be a step that would be excellent. But, the problem of the UN it has to be

1:00:22 uh a member state has to bring it up. In the case of Grenada, uh Prime Minister Gary was almost obsessed with the subject and so he had like a mission and he pursued it as we know for many years until he was overthrown because he wasn't taking care business in his own country. You know, he was spending so much time in New York that he was disregarding, you know, even though he was the founding father of that island. Uh and then um I don't know, it would be nice to have congressional hearings, but I mean I I appreciate your work here greatly, but I mean with people in in who are currently in Congress because then the oath, you know, and then you could bring officials uh and by subpoena if necessary and you know, and and and really get try to get to the bottom of this. There's so much um allegations and rumors Right. and probably half of those are false and maybe the US government is getting a bad rap, but it's partly their own fault, you know, because of so much secrecy. And we could, you know, what is really happening in Area 51. I

1:01:24 mean, have we, you know, incorporated some of this technology into weapons? I mean, there's all these kinds of allegations, but because we're dealing with classified areas it's impossible to know. And so, that would be another step. If the if the other countries of the world saw that there were like hearings in the US and stuff like that, probably they they would do the same. you know, it would it would give cover to a lot of other countries. Even though many countries, as you know, have are trying, you know, and are releasing files and in South America especially they're creating agencies. those would be two good steps. And there're probably others, too. Thank you. Mr. Pope? The um head of the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs um attended a Royal Society discussion meeting in the UK in 2010. Now, I hasten to add that was an astrobiology meeting and not a UFO meeting, but it did discuss in a speculative way some of the issues that might arise uh be they religious, scientific, and technical,

1:02:25 societal uh if if we did uh detect extraterrestrial life or even another civilization. But, uh she said that when it comes to the role of the UN, one must approach the UN with consensus on this sort of issue. So, I I don't think there's much practical hope of that. On regard to the your other question about uh practical steps that could be taken, I think one one meaningful step would be to incorporate, whatever you believe about UFOs, some module into pilot training uh because whatever the government says or does about UFOs, civil and military pilots do continue to see these things. Great idea. Thank you. Mr. Cameron? Uh I would agree with uh an international United Nations type thing. I don't think congressional will help because it doesn't help anybody. It doesn't help you get elected, which is what it's all about. Um in terms of this week, I think uh I think we're no different than any other

1:03:26 social or political movement, no matter how important we think we are and when the time is right it'll happen and we have to keep making moves and I think the move we've made this week to do this is a step ahead. So, we are making steps and it's like the women's right to vote it started in 1848, they didn't get the right to vote till 1920 and even then their problems weren't solved. We're no different. We've got to make moves. We've got to put pressure on. That's how I that's how I think it's going to happen. Thank you. Dr. Shelley? Yes. I I've talked about I'm trying to a summit meeting to talk about UFO and universe and universal exploration. And not only that, and we have uh as a humankind we've encountered many problems. Probably in this summit we'll be able to solve some of the difficulties. Now, we are trying to cohesive the strength of all of the world. Now,

1:04:27 I'm trying to uh form a committee of all the thinkers of all of the world and try to gather all the intellectuals around the world together. And also that we have we should come to a conclusion on all the cases. And few years ago, some of experts and some uh some of people that uh advised that uh Senator Goldwater whether he could conduct investigation or promote investigation of the Area 51. He did not leave about this fifth Area 51. And I was very honored he invited me. And so, we had a small group formed and uh Senator Goldwater was a chair and I was a co-chair. And then regretfully, he was uh quite old at the time and he he went to the hospital. But, um so he asked his secretary to apologize for me for the unsuccessful of this forming a

1:05:27 group. So, you can see that for such a prestigious person to be involved in the investigation, if we can get somebody like that we will be we will we will have we will come to a fruitful conclusion. This is a very major event. If if after the investigation and we come to a conclusion that there is no UFO or ET, then that's fine. But, if we can verify there is actually UFO and ET, that's great. Mr. Pinotti, you already gave your answer to this one, didn't you? Excuse me? Did you give your answer to this question? I think you did. Yeah. You started. Yes. The the problem of uh um interacting on international level and uh the possibility to bring this argument to the attention of uh United Nations and so on is a big one. Um I think that probably little nations may be more interested.

1:06:27 Big nations may have big problems. In fact, as I told before, I tried to move something with the little Republic of San Marino since this could be extremely simple. But, there are problems because you see, for instance, in Italy, even if we have an official UFO group in the Italian Air Force, we have the facts, but we have no study in the sense that our military say, "We are all involved in defense. That's all. We don't like to draw any conclusion." Uh if we still have this attitude at the political level everywhere, we will not be able to to do anything. And so, I think that we must change our mentality, our way of thinking. We should be aware of the fact that we are facing something absolutely new

1:07:29 and absolutely real and absolutely from outside. Don't remember that the first UFO sightings occurred in Europe and particularly in Italy in the '30s. They were advanced intelligent piloted crafts. They were studied in by the fascist government. Nobody knew this up to some years ago, but if this is true and this is true, this means that these objects do not come from the Earth. They come from outside the Earth and if this is true, we should be aware that we are facing an historical argument. We are still discussing and from a sociological sociological point of view, I think that we are not too different the cargo cult people who spoke in the

1:08:30 in the Pacific after the World War II about the the passing and they thought they were some kind of divine means and so on. Apart from this, we do not know the origin of this intelligence and of these crafts, but what is sure that we are sufficiently lucky that these intelligence are not hostile and this is not too much, frankly. What we should do, I think, is just to be aware of this and to to try to understand more, but all together. if we still continue to be separated state by state, we won't do any conclusion. Thank you very much.

1:09:32 Senator Gravel, you have 3 minutes left. Thank you, Madam I'll use some of my Following along with your recommendations, I had suggested earlier the and I think Mr. Cameron shared that same view is that the another hearing whether it's like this one or whether it's in Congress probably won't advance our goals all that much. But there's there's no reason why with the various countries represented here with the various scholars and military officers that we would try to within our own to get them to endorse a resolution, a very simple straightforward resolution calling upon the General Assembly, not

1:10:32 the not get waylaid to the Security Council because that's a dead letter But calling take the matter to the to the General Assembly. All we would need is one country, but I think that we have several countries from South America and certainly this group here might have enough influence to get their government to go on record and to field a resolution creating an agency of the United Nations without a lot of powers defined but specifically with the goal to organize a global conference, not a hearing, a global conference of the scholars and scientists and whoever they would come this and and to fund both from public and private sources so that within a couple years we could convene

1:11:33 a conference that would command the attention of the world. I have no doubt and I at one point in my career was a delegate to the United Nations from the Senate for 4 months. And I have no doubt that we could field that kind of a resolution and get it adopted. And then it would be the responsibility that would be the aegis of it all that would carry it forward and then we could all have something now to hang our hats on. Right now, we're hanging our head on the fine work that's been putting together this particular conference. But we we can elevate it one notch higher and not one notch higher, I mean we can elevate it right to where it really belongs as an issue as a because it's a global issue, we could elevate it right to the General Assembly of the United Nations and I think that that's and so

1:12:38 have I have a draft that that Danny was kind enough that Antonio we're we're preparing. I'll I'll draft something based upon their work. Try to get it done by tomorrow and and be very simple. And I mean it's not going to be controversial. We've already talked about it or I've raised it with my colleagues and and this is a given, you know, we'll have something that not only the various members who have testified, members on our side the table and various members of the public may want to sign a petition joining this effort and then hope that an organization either the organization that did this or I've talked a little bit with some others that have an organization that might want to take this up and follow through, raise the money to just get it help get it to the

1:13:40 New York at probably the next session that could treat this would be next October next September next October. So and I and I certainly myself would be happy to travel to New York and try to lobby for that. But it would take we would we need a country to do it. And so it's up to you to see where where you have the influence within your country to and all we need is one. All we need is one. And and that would be the sponsor and I'm sure once you got one country with a sponsor, several other countries would follow suit and join on to it. So we could have a bevy of countries. And I and I think just to end on this I would guarantee that it would pass there's a lot of resentment in the General Assembly with respect to the conduct of the Security Council in in a lot of other affairs.

1:14:40 is up. Thank you. SO I'LL I WANT TO THANK OUR PANEL TODAY. You have been here and appreciate your time and your effort and your willingness to speak up. And with that we are adjourned.