Document · 9 September 2025

Hearing transcript: Restoring Public Trust Through UAP Transparency and Whistleblower Protection (Sept 9, 2025)

Also known as CHRG-119hhrg61718

The transcript of "Restoring Public Trust Through UAP Transparency and Whistleblower Protection", the hearing held on 9 September 2025 by the House Oversight Committee's Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets, chaired by Rep. Anna Paulina Luna with Jasmine Crockett as ranking member.

The witnesses were the Air Force veteran Jeffrey Nuccetelli, who described the 2003 "Red Square" incursions at Vandenberg; Navy Chief Alexandro Wiggins; the journalist George Knapp, who spoke about Bob Lazar, Area 51 and what he called institutionalised official lying; the Air Force veteran Dylan Borland, who described a 2012 triangular craft at Langley; and, for the minority, Joe Spielberger of the Project On Government Oversight, on overclassification and whistleblower protection.

The documents entered into the record include a letter to the Secretary of Defense about alleged reprisals against David Grusch.

Sources: Task Force hearing transcript (2025)

Facts and claims

Key moments: Restoring Public Trust Through UAP Transparency and Whistleblower Protection

  1. 19:46 Anna Paulina Luna: Luna, opening: former AARO director Sean Kirkpatrick “attacked our witnesses and members on this Committee”; she calls him “a documented liar”.
  2. 35:30 Jeffrey Nuccetelli: Nuccetelli: the incursions began on October 14, 2003, when Boeing contractors reported a massive glowing red square silently hovering over two missile defense sites (the “Vandenberg Red Square”).
  3. 35:50 Jeffrey Nuccetelli: Nuccetelli: “Official Air Force records of this event are in possession by AARO and the FBI.”
  4. 36:32 Jeffrey Nuccetelli: Nuccetelli: shaken witnesses described a triangular craft larger than a football field hovering silently for about 45 seconds over their entry control point.
  5. 41:25 Alexandro Wiggins: Wiggins: “A self-luminous tic-tac-shaped object emerged from the ocean before linking up with three other similar objects”; the four left together with near-instantaneous acceleration, no sonic boom or exhaust, and radar tracks then dropped.
  6. 42:25 Alexandro Wiggins: Wiggins: from years of operating there, “unidentified objects reoccur in United States operation areas off southern California.”
  7. 48:50 George Knapp: Knapp: DIA scientist James Lacatski initiated AAWSAP, “the largest acknowledged UFO program ever funded by the U.S. Government”; the DIA has still not released 95 percent of what it produced.
  8. 50:08 George Knapp: Knapp says he has confirmed on the record that Robert Bigelow and an AAWSAP colleague negotiated with Lockheed Martin executives for BAASS to receive unusual material stored in California: “That material was not made here.”
  9. 51:25 George Knapp: Knapp on the Russian files he gave the Task Force: a USSR-wide order to collect UFO reports, feeding an analysis program he calls Thread III that aimed to build superior technology from what was learned.
  10. 53:54 Dylan Borland: Borland: former Air Force geospatial intelligence specialist (2010–2013), a whistleblower to the Intelligence Community Inspector General and AARO with “direct firsthand knowledge of and experience with craft and technologies that are not ours.”
  11. 54:32 Dylan Borland: Borland says he was later exposed to classified information from “the UAP legacy crash retrieval program” through a special access program, and has faced over a decade of reprisals.
  12. 55:03 Dylan Borland: Borland: at about 01:30 he saw a roughly 100 ft equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar at Langley AFB.
  13. 1:06:48 Dylan Borland: Borland describes the Langley encounter: a white light flew across the flight line and “a triangle manifests around the light”; it stopped about 100 feet in front of him and 100 feet above, and his phone grew hot and froze.
  14. 1:12:18 Jared Moskowitz: Moskowitz: “I don’t know on this subject. But I do know when we are being lied to, and we are definitely being lied to.”
  15. 1:18:03 Jeffrey Nuccetelli: Nuccetelli on a pattern across the encounters: someone notices a light, “then the object responds. It performs for you.”
  16. 1:19:10 Dylan Borland: Asked by Rep. Mace whether the Langley triangle was U.S. technology, Borland says that must be answered in a SCIF, that AARO “have the answer”, and that he does not think it was a foreign government.
  17. 1:35:11 George Knapp: Knapp relays Russian files on an October 1982 incident at a Soviet ICBM base: after hours of UFO activity the launch control system lit up as if the correct codes had been entered, then returned to normal.
  18. 1:36:15 George Knapp: Asked which contractors hold recovered material, Knapp: “one of them is Lockheed”, adding they are doing what they were asked to do.
  19. 1:39:09 Jeffrey Nuccetelli: Nuccetelli: AARO told him it could not locate the Red Square records, which the Air Force had destroyed; he holds a FOIA reply saying Air Force police records are destroyed on a three-year schedule.
  20. 1:40:57 Dylan Borland: Borland: after his complaint AARO classified everything; to his understanding the Inspector General found him “credible, not urgent”.
  21. 1:44:30 Eric Burlison: Burlison plays a video he describes as taken on 30 October 2024: an MQ-9 tracking an orb off Yemen as another MQ-9 fires a Hellfire missile at it.
  22. 1:46:12 George Knapp: Watching the Yemen video, Knapp: “that's a hellfire missile smacking into that UFO and just bounced right off”; Burlison adds that the debris seemed to be carried along with the object.
  23. 1:48:03 George Knapp: Knapp: James Lacatski told him the U.S. had managed to get inside a craft with no wings, rotor, tail or fuel; it took 14 months of DOPSR review to clear two sentences on it.
  24. 1:59:32 George Knapp: Knapp: congressional investigator Richard D'Amato, sent by Senators Robert Byrd and Harry Reid, got into Area 51 and came to believe the reverse-engineering program had moved inside corporations.
  25. 2:14:44 George Knapp: Knapp: Bob Jacobs, who filmed a 1964 Vandenberg missile test, went to AARO and was dismissed with a claim that the original footage showed nothing — footage that had been taken away the day it was recorded.
  26. 2:15:30 George Knapp: Knapp: Bob Salas, who saw UFOs over a nuclear ICBM base as missiles went down, was also disregarded; “It almost looks like AARO operated as a counterintelligence operation.”
  27. 2:20:24 George Knapp: Asked to name gatekeepers, Knapp names Dr. James Ryder at Lockheed, and says the CIA primarily gave contractors the material and told them to keep it quiet.
  28. 2:21:21 George Knapp: Knapp adds a second name: “Glenn Gaffney, CIA.”
  29. 2:24:36 Anna Paulina Luna: Luna: the Task Force will move to seek immunity so Borland and others can testify in a SCIF without exposure under the Espionage Act.
  30. 2:27:21 Anna Paulina Luna: Replaying the Yemen video, Luna asks whether anything in the U.S. arsenal can split a Hellfire missile like that; Nuccetelli and Wiggins say nothing to their knowledge, Borland would answer in a SCIF.
  31. 2:31:35 Alexandro Wiggins: Wiggins: the object rose slowly from the horizon to 3,000–4,000 feet, then went “probably 1, 2 Mach instantly” into the formation; radar showed four objects.
  32. 2:32:17 Alexandro Wiggins: Wiggins: he detected it on radar first and saw it from the port bridge wing about seven to eight nautical miles from the ship.
  33. 2:39:01 George Knapp: Knapp relays Col. Sokolov: in 40 Soviet intercepts of UFOs, three pilots fired; their planes stalled and crashed, two pilots died, and the standing order became to leave UFOs alone.
  34. 2:39:53 Dylan Borland: Borland points to Bob Lazar: discredited at once, yet he took friends with a video camera to film test flights in the desert, “so clearly, he knew something.”
  35. 2:45:36 Jeffrey Nuccetelli: Nuccetelli: 500 Air Force police guarded the critical launch, with 40 to 100 people on duty during encounters; the square objects were “at least as large as a football field … like flying buildings.”

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