Lacatski, Kelleher and Knapp on “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon” (Mystery Wire, October 2021)

0:00 Dr. Jim Lekatsky, there has been considerable speculation fueled in part by statements from the DOD's spokesperson that the $22 million that was secured by Senator Reid and his colleagues in Congress to fund this program and study had nothing to do with UFOs. It was really just a study of future technologies, presumably by our adversaries, that it was really just that. Can you address whether OSAP was first and foremost an investigation of UFO phenomena? Why isn't it made obvious in any of the documentation that's been made public so far? It was completely UFO-related. The reason you haven't seen the documentation is we used a statement of objectives format for the request for proposal. That is insufficient for anyone examining the contents of the contract. They must have the proposal. Now, within the proposal, and in this case

1:01 it was from Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, it's clearly mentioned among the topics proposed, a worldwide database of advanced aerospace vehicles. Dr. Jim Lekatsky, there can be no ambiguity here. This was being proposed as a UFO project. Now, if you want to look at the tail end of the project, you'll find over a hundred documents required to be reported to the Defense Intelligence Agency that were UFO-related, were UFO-related, in part, of course. I mean, they were large, very large documents. And you also have, you know, technical studies, and you have that database, probably the largest UFO database that exists in the world and is currently being used by the U.S. military. So, yes, it was completely

2:04 a UFO project. One of the other things that's been confusing for the public over the last almost four years, the New York Times and other major media outlets reported that that $22 million went to AATIP, not to OSAP. Can you clarify the difference between OSAP and AATIP? Yes. The name AATIP was a nickname for OSAP for certain security reasons that we've put into the book. But the difference between OSAP, with the nickname AATIP, at DIA and AATIP at the Pentagon is quite distinct. OSAP had $22 million of funding. It covered military and civilian UFOs yielding a massive database. It also had a main contract and subcontracts. Now, AATIP in the Pentagon, as described in the articles, was basically zero funded.

3:05 Looked at specific military UFO encounters and very important ones because they had film and it had no contract. So getting back to how did this mix up occur, I think it's not deliberate. It's not due to authors, to television personalities, etc. It's the fact we were running not an official SAP, but a closed program. I can tell you for a fact that within my own office, they did not know except leadership that this contract was being run. They had no idea whatsoever. Our security was that tight. And also, the fact is, is that, well, I guess that pretty much says that that's that's that's the best example I

4:06 can give. Dr. Colin Kelleher, you were a program manager at Bass. Can you describe in sort of broad terms, the operation at Bass, how many people were hired in what timeframe. And what did they do. I mean, was this a real investigation of UFOs and related phenomena and how did it work. Well, I was hired in November of 2008. The also program ran from September 2008 to late 2010. So one of the first tasks that I had on coming on board was to put together a team of UFO focused investigators as quickly as possible. So I was thinking back on this and between November 2008 and probably April 2009. I personally conducted about 300 telephone interviews in an attempt to recruit different people for different positions.

5:06 At also happen. In addition, I did at least 100 face to face interviews in my office in that period of time. So we're talking about a pretty rapid clip in terms of bringing forth. You know, a lot of people into the office. Sometimes there were one or two people outside, but our focus was in hiring a team of PhD level scientists. That would include physics and biology masters level scientists technicians. We also look for database analysts and military intelligence personnel who had a long. History investigative background. And of course, we also were looking for a lot of security officers because security was a big issue. Interestingly, one of our program managers was a 20 year veteran of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, also known as AFOSI and you know this guy

6:08 was a very, very seasoned investigator and he helped us a lot in what you know turned out to be. Attempted formation of a relationship with AFOSI which is discussed in the book, but all of these hiring and recruitment occurred within a four or five month period. I think by the end of May of 2009 we had a team of about 50 50 people and George when you consider that that you know this was a 24 month contract. So not only were we putting together the security infrastructure of this of this large organization and that included facility security clearances getting everything up to, you know, to. A level that was sufficient for. inspections, but hiring these people training all of these different people and then we executed multiple programs side by side.

7:10 And all of this happened in a 24 month period so. We were on a pretty rapid clip and I would say i've worked with government organizations in the past. NASA and DOD and in other capacities and. Putting that kind of level of activity together in a 24 month period. I think was pretty extraordinary and. Obviously. The input in Washington DC and greasing the wheels. To make all of this happen. I'm putting together a pretty large organization that was focused. Only on UFO investigations that was the key. You know, one of the most disturbing aspects of the investigation that you both. cooperated in and headed is highlighted in this book. The medical and physical consequences of close encounters and not just lights in the sky and people may be seeing structured craft but also other

8:10 related phenomena that resulted in. Documented physical effects, some of them pretty serious effects. Dr Kelleher can you tell us a little bit about what was learned about the medical consequences of these encounters and maybe provide an example. Yes, we had multiple streams of. Of of cases pertaining to ufos that were coming in, we were also examining multiple databases, some of which were pilot databases military pilots civilian pilots. And we were data basing a very large number of of cases we had. What we call the data warehouse that has 11 separate databases of uap cases from around the world and from within. And from within the United States and we actually data based a several hundred cases where. Individuals both here and and beyond the United States and encountered

9:12 ufos and had. Had had physiological effects pathological effects and medical effects, some of which. Medical effects were quite serious and to that end in terms of real time investigations and in medical ufo effects. We had two physician scientists. And i'm talking md PhDs that were consultants with ossa and their task was basically to be as a part of a team that would go out and investigate. uap related injuries, we had we had a few that were real time and normally during a ufo investigation. Investigators may spend a few days with the with the with the witnesses in terms of these medical type investigations. These these investigations went on sometimes for months and sometimes for years and a lot of these investigations involved taking a blood samples.

10:14 Analytical chemistry hemat hematology of blood samples immune system parameters sometimes MRIs were done all under the HIPAA standards, we were very careful to observe all patient confidentiality. And and and HIPAA dictates us so we we came across a few outstanding cases in terms of medical injuries. I can I can give you an example of one. There was a biotechnologist that was driving towards. Oregon if he was driving towards bend Oregon and he had his daughter in the car and the daughter noticed off in the car. field three unusual unidentified objects that seemed to be erratically flying close to the ground, they were small. And right after they they noticed that she noticed this they came

11:14 towards the car and the biotechnologist as he was driving. Two of these objects came into the vehicle one past right in front of father and daughter right across the dashboard the other went through his left shoulder. And exited through his right shoulder, these were small approximately baseball sized objects we we still have not a good. ascertainment of exactly what those objects were but right afterwards, this guy began to feel. Dizzy he began to feel nauseous following morning he woke up there was a lot of pain in his left side. His his left face was very, very sunburned. He started within a couple of days or a week losing hair on his left side his left eye began to decrease in acuity his left ear began to that began to go downhill. Long story short our

12:15 physician scientists follow this guy and his family over several months. A few months later. This guy came down with a rare form of ductile carcinoma and luckily was was was able to be treated. But the multiple blood samples were taken over that time and sort of a very cohesive picture was put together so that. A complete story of what we thought was a high probability of medical injury occurring as a result of this close encounter with unidentified blind objects, there are other other cases. That we explain in the book, but that one in particular was followed actually for years. Just one last comment from each of you, you know you we all have been working on it you guys more than I have for. A couple of years putting this together it's finally out. Dr. Caskey Jim. 14 months it took to get

13:18 the stamp of approval from the DoD. I imagine you were kind of sweating it out there. Can you tell me about that process and how you feel about what emerged from that process. Well, I'm glad that we finally got. Public release authority. And and frankly I understood all of their concerns. What we had to rewrite in the book and what do we had to remove and and put in. I wasn't really sweating it because I was almost in constant communication with them. Very pleasant. People I was dealing with and I understood their situation during the pandemic they were working off site. But they had to process that through secure channels, because you don't know what's in the book. Until is so they had to process it as if it had maybe top secret SCI

14:18 information and. Of course, it didn't but nevertheless they had to handle it that way they had to go into work transfer to various organizations for their review and approval. But. It eventually occurred and I'm glad we got that approval for release. column you're excited to it must be like giving birth huh I have this finally out to be able to tell this story. yeah I think it's been a it's been a long time coming and I think. The book as it comes out should be able to address. A certain level of confusion that they're especially in the media over the last four years, there has been a sort of a focus on. The book will will encounter the entire program and I think it is a complete summary of the of the the two year the 24 month program that was. That occurred and as as

15:19 Jim said. Over 100 reports during that 24 months were submitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency, both electronically and by paper, I remember standing in my office actually. In Las Vegas with the paper copies. In three ring binders and that set of data actually went to about six feet high on the floor of my office, I mean it was an incredible. stash of data visiting encompass not only monthly reports but also reports that were deep dives into specific. cases and and also topics so. I think it's about time that the entire story of awesome is being told and you know Dr. Lekatsky was the driving force and. In Washington DC and I was the day to day manager in Las Vegas, so I think between the two of us we've come up with a pretty good summary of what what the whole program looked like.

16:20 I think people will really enjoy seeing the genesis of. Tick investigation how that was was explained in the is explained in the book. Also, what I liked was the inside baseball of how all of you Senator Reed Robert Bigelow fought to get the program on and get it up and running, but also to defend it from predators in the Pentagon who eventually. caused a lot of trouble, I mean can imagine if if all SAP and bass had been allowed to continue how far down the road we would be in understanding these mysteries, you know. Okay, well, first of many conversations to come. Looking forward to how the public reacts to the book and i'll be talking to you guys soon. Okay. Thanks, George. appreciate it. Thank you.