David Grusch on the Dr. Phil Podcast: craft, cadavers and the retrieval program (August 2026)

0:01 You have seen undisputable evidence that there are craft on this planet that are not from this planet, correct? Correct. You've seen the cadavers. Yeah. Have any of these pilots or occupants of these craft, to your knowledge, been taken alive? You may believe we're alone, you may believe we're not, but you have the right to have information and think critically about it. Tonight I'm talking with a whistleblower, and I want you to hold on to that word because it is a word that matters. A whistleblower is someone on the inside who sees something that they believe is wrong. And make a very important decision. They decide the rest of us have a right to know, even when telling the truth can cost

1:03 them everything. His name is David Grush, 14 years in the Air Force, and then held some of the most closely guarded secrets as an intelligence officer. Closely guarded secrets, the biggest this country has. Then he went in front of the United States Congress under oath and said the government has recovered craft that were, in his words, quote, not made by human beings. And hid it from the very people who are supposed to be watching. And look, I'm like you. If that's true, I want to see it. Show me the craft. Show me the proof. Before we dive in, a quick thank you to Preserve Gold for sponsoring the Dr. Phil podcast. They're the only precious metals company I recommend. There's a special offer on your screen right now and in the show notes. I'll tell you more about it a little later. So, here's what I want to put to David tonight.

2:05 If this is true, why aren't we seeing any of it? Where's the evidence? Who's holding it? And why does every door close right when we get close? That's what I want to walk away with. It's not a verdict on aliens, but the truth about a man who blew the whistle and about why the proof the whole country is asking for still isn't in our hands. So, let's just get straight into it. David, thank you so much for talking to me. Thanks, Dr. Phil. This was something that you did based on what you have seen, and it has come at a very high price to you. Is that a fair statement? Yeah, absolutely. It came at a very high price, and I had to essentially sacrifice my career to do what I thought was right. Why was it so important to you, and what did

3:07 you see that was so important to you that you were willing to do what you had to know was going to have a profound effect on the trajectory of your career? Yeah, in terms of why I did it, I mean, certainly there was an implication that our nation's leaders was not being provided this, you know, unbelievable information about our place in the cosmos. But myself, my coworkers, you know, friends, supervisors, you know, were attacked for enabling me and helping me in my investigation. So, it was a combination of needing to get off the X and definitely suffering some reprisal activities, but also realizing this information, you know, half of it shouldn't be classified. Humanity has a right to know certain basic facts about, you know, different types of life. And seeing what Congress was not being told and not having appropriate insight akin to the church pipe committees of the 1970s and not having insight on the CIA, NSA, and FBI's

4:09 activities. I just thought it was wrong, but this was allowed to go unchecked for so many years. Well, as we've seen from the disclosures that have been made, it's interesting when you actually see the documents, I guess the MO has been to hide this from the country going back as far as 1947. The Robertson panel, everything has been, move along, folks, nothing to see here, nothing to see here, when they would say that and then simultaneously be spending huge amounts of money, dedicating huge resources to trying to figure out what's going on while they're telling the American people, eh, nothing to it, move along, nothing to see here. But yet, they're diving into it very deeply and keeping that a secret. And I think the first thing I said about this when those documents came out was,

5:09 our government's been lying to us for 79 years, and I'm furious about that. And that bothered me a lot. I said it should bother everybody in America. It certainly bothered you. Yeah, certainly you're right. The 1953 Robertson panel kind of changed the tone and developed a systematic ridicule process while the government was secretly taking this very seriously. And what we saw in some of the recent tranches was documents from early 50s, late 40s, showing how serious the Air Force, the Navy, et cetera, were taking this. They ruled out classified U.S. programs. They ruled out foreign programs that other countries were pursuing. Obviously, what's left is either a natural phenomenon or some other anomalous intelligence that we don't understand. But the government had taken it seriously and kind of buried it behind the scenes while engaging in activities like Project Blue Book, et cetera, explaining away the phenomenon as something prosaic, you know, ball lightning, you know,

6:11 swamp gas, very famously, right? And, of course, that wasn't true. The government not only was studying this, but then formed a, you know, material recovery and exploitation program. So if you accept the fact that UAP are real, which I think we're at that point, common consensus, you know, guess what? Sometimes these things land or crash. And simply what I brought to the inspector general and what I briefed Congress both, you know, classified and in a public setting is the fact that we've had this recovery program of actually recovering that empirical evidence. And kind of like the movie Indiana Jones, we've stashed it all over the place and all the big contractors are involved and the CIA, Office of Naval Intelligence, be something called a federally funded research and development centers. A lot of them were involved in the analysis over the decades. And unfortunately, very few people in Congress knew, very few presidents knew as temporary employees, you know, or leaders of

7:12 our country and kind of the intelligentsia deep state that unfortunately, or fortunately, because I learned the ways of before, so to speak, what I think that I was a part of for years, you know, kept that torch burning and controlled the issue and allowed the political appointees to essentially come and go without many of them knowing. So you say that there is a, you refer to it as a deep state, there is a bureaucratic machinery that actually keeps this from the president of the United States because they are regarded as temporary employees who are going to be out in four or eight years. And this apparatus doesn't want them knowing that information and being like out in the world and able to then talk about it. Exactly. And this is a common practice. I mean, when I was back in the intelligence community, there were sensitive programs I

8:13 worked on that we purposely hid from the director of national intelligence, oversight staff, stuff we only briefed the White House. And, you know, kept it away from Congress through a unique shell game of not reporting programs. And, you know, I've had sensitive meetings with senior officials of this administration, and they've also encountered that where they're briefed by one thing by CIA in their one hat at the White House. And then when they, you know, go to another agency and sit in a briefing for that same program, they're telling another cabinet member a totally different story about what this classified program is doing. So this is a very common practice. And, you know, even going back to MKUltra, remember Richard Helms in 1973 ordered Sidney Gottlieb to destroy all the MKUltra documents. There was a shell game within the CIA to prevent the inspector general, general counsel, Congress from learning about the program. I mean, we only know what we know about MKUltra

9:14 through the financial records that were found and stored separately. So that's why we know, you know, 30 percent of what was going on in the CIA had this document destruction process. And I do worry if President Trump hasn't provided a either classified or otherwise, you know, historical document preservation notice hold, that a lot of the information on the UAP recovery program is being destroyed as we speak, akin to MKUltra in the 70s. And tell people what Project MKUltra was about, the Human Experimentation Program. To be clear, you're saying that you have seen undisputable evidence that there are crafts on this planet that are not from this planet. If your retirement dropped 30 percent tomorrow, would you be ready?

10:15 So many successful Americans turn to gold to help protect their retirement. And Preserve Gold is the only precious metals company I trust and recommend. Let me be frank. Gold is not for everybody. And I do not give financial advice. But I do urge you to learn about a special offer to receive up to $20,000 in free gold and silver. Visit drphilgold.com. And tell people what Project MKUltra was about, the Human Experimentation Program. Yeah, so there was a whole MK series to include Operation Chaos, which was domestic influence operations. But MKUltra started in the 50s, and I'm certainly not the expert, but essentially it was a mind control experimentation program, also using different types of drugs, such as LSD. And they were dosing innocent civilians in clinics, and they were experimenting with pretty intense mind control capabilities,

11:17 because the CIA got wind that the Russia was also experimenting with this kind of thing. And they wanted to create Manchurian candidate assassins and other things. And there was a, you know, Chairwoman Lunar had a hearing about it recently. And, you know, believe it or not, there were some spinoffs as well. During that period, the Psychic Spy Program at Stanford Research Institute was created, because once again, Russia was experimenting in this extrasensory perception and kind of the more woo type stuff. But a lot of these, you know, what you would consider fringe ideas were being looked at back in the 70s. But what we did catch was CIA paying off journalists at major, you know, news organizations. That's the whole mockingbird thing that you hear. And there was just a lot of unsavory things. And it's been reported by, you know, a particular author whose name escapes me that even Charles Manson would have possibly been in the MKUltra program. And there's a whole book on that.

12:19 And the gentleman testified with Chairwoman Luna's committee recently. And I encourage you to watch that, you know, that video. Right. And I've spoken with Representative Luna, and we've talked about this a little bit. And I think that there's going to be a lot coming out about this. And I don't think there's any question that drugs were being used, and the idea was enhanced interrogation. there were violations of human rights, and there's a definite desire to keep all that from coming out publicly because it's not very flattering to our government when those sort of things come out. And I think we've had times in our history, I think MKUltra is one, JFK, and those records. And now we're looking at this.

13:20 And take me through, there had to be a moment in time when you had to sit down, and certainly the night before you made your first declaration about these things that went from classified to going public with it, when you had to cross the threshold and decide, okay, I'm doing this. I'm just going to do it. Take me through your thought process and what challenges you had to face in making the decision to do this. Because you had to know what was going to happen when you did. You had to know, I'm falling on a grenade here when I do this. Yeah, it was a very hard decision. And after I fought off some of the administrative terrorism I faced and, you know, maintained my top secret clearance, you know, I went back at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, and I saw the writing on the wall.

14:21 I saw that they were not going to allow me to do my job. I saw the minefield that they were creating for me. And I had a long discussion with my wife and, you know, my wife was a former CIA medical officer and Air Force officer. So she had, you know, a top secret clearance at one point and understood a lot of the background of my investigation and the terrorism that I faced and knew the intelligence community's tricks. And I realized I wasn't going to be able to continue my career at this point because the venom was out to get me and I saw others being affected as well. So I used what I called the Russian Ministry of Defense doctrine, which is to escalate, and so I escalated to the highest level possible, both to protect myself and my family, but to keep the wolves at bay, so to speak. And that mostly worked. What I talked about in the June 9th presser is the Air Force did unsuccessfully try to file an Espionage Act unauthorized

15:24 disclosure complaint against me when I did go public, which is kind of hilarious. And unfortunately, I had to resign my Air Force officer commission because I foresaw an attack of that nature if I stayed in the Air Force on the reserve side. I really thought that the Air Force was probably going to come after me using, you know, the uniform code of military justice. And I was mostly correct that that was, you know, going to be one of their things that they were going to try. So I had to essentially kill my career and, you know, miss my promotion to a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserve. And, you know, and I was only a couple of years away from retirement. And I'm working right now to try to get a medical retirement and that promotion that I missed through a records correction process. So we'll see if the Air Force actually honors my sacrifice and gives me that. But that's up to a particular board that works for the Secretary of the Air Force right now. But it was a very hard decision. I mean, my whole identity was built around

16:25 being an intel officer, being, you know, a super spook for the government and having to totally change my lifestyle and look for another job. And the amount of money I've spent on legal fees and the income I've lost was really unfortunate. And so I just I guess I have a very high justice sensitivity with the little touch of autism and ADHD. And I decided, you know what, screw it. I'm going to do what's right because I'm looking left and right. And I just don't see, you know, anybody else taking the leadership needed on this and talking about the real skeleton in the closet, which is this material recovery and reverse engineering program. There was a pretty focused effort to assassinate your character and imply that you were mentally unstable and impeach you as being mentally unstable, having autism, things that they could use to say, well, consider

17:26 the source. And you didn't run from that. You owned that and said, yes, I've had PTSD from Afghanistan. Yeah. You described yourself as a high functioning individual on the autism spectrum. And you said, I will absolutely say that you cannot weaponize that against me. I absolutely know right from wrong. I know what I know and what I don't know. So you didn't run from that. You leaned into it and said, yeah, that's right. What's that got to do with what I'm talking about? So you kind of took that on head on and killed it where it stood. Exactly. And they did try to relitigate, you know, past PTSD issues that I reported to every agency I worked for, the security apparatus. And they tried to relitigate it and claim that I didn't report all my mental health issues. So they launched this huge investigation.

18:27 I handed over all my medical records. And of course, you know, I was cleared of any, you know, issues. And then when that didn't work, you know, they opened up a criminal investigation on me and other individuals, other associates of mine. And of course, that didn't work as well. I was cleared of all wrongdoing there. And there was this, like, iterative attack to try to destroy me from a personal conduct and mental health perspective. And it's hilarious because a particular security office at a particular agency I used to work at leaked and tipped off about my PTSD and my previous struggles that I've, you know, took an ownership for to a journalist at The Intercept. Literally within a couple of days of me testifying in July 2023 to try to shoot the messenger, to try to character assassinate me, not going after my claims, but going after my person. And, you know, what I experienced PTSD-wise is very common in the veteran community. And once again, I reported it. I've always maintained my security clearance. I've had a clearance for 21 years, Dr. Phil.

19:29 And I just thought it was very disgusting and gross that they tipped off a journalist about that to do a hit piece on me. And interestingly enough, I was actually warned two months in advance. Hey, Dave, a friend of mine called me who was involved in these programs that I served in the Air Force with. And he's like, they're going to leak the stuff out of your security files about your PTSD. True story. And I was like, dude, no way that is so like cringe and disgusting. They would never do something like that. But once again, you know, the intel I got was true. And unfortunately, they did that. So, you know, that just shows you they're trying to attack me asymmetrically because they can't attack, you know, the truth that I'm bringing to the American public. So the people that are accusing you of violating your ethics are using unethical means to discredit what you're saying. And, you know, you think back to fifth grade, if you're in an argument with somebody and they're losing the argument, what do they do?

20:31 They start attacking your character or your your mother wears army boots. You know, they start going after anything except the topic because they're losing on the topic. So, yeah, it's funny how it goes full circle all the way from the playground to the United States government when they're trying to discredit somebody. And, you know, we've seen it. And, you know, it's it's it's part of the psyop that goes into all of this, sadly. I've been saying for years, the most expensive thing you can do is nothing. And when it comes to Medicare, nothing is exactly what most people do every single year. Luckily, doing something is easier than ever with Chapter. They're independent Medicare advisors, and they compare every Medicare plan in the country. If you're already in the right spot, they'll

21:32 tell you. And if you're not, folks who switched with Chapter saved an average of $1,100 last year. That's what something is worth. Stop paying for nothing. Talk to Chapter. Bottom line, you say that you have hard evidence. You have seen documentation and, in fact, pictures of what? Tell us what and you've testified about this. So, yeah. Tell us exactly what it is that you because, listen, I've I've just written an op ed piece and I'm happy to send it to you. It'll come out in the next day or so. I've written several about it so far. And I think the title of it is Disclosure with a question mark behind it. Because it seems to me that it's formed

22:32 without substance so far. And my interest in this has always been if there is something that is going to come out that involves aircraft not of this earth and intelligent non-human life forms, that that's going to have a significant impact, certainly on a portion of our population that could be negative for them. It could cause some people to have a serious psychological reaction and that we need to be prepared for that. And the American Psychological Association, Psychiatric Association, Medical Associations all need to be planning in advance because all of our resources as of today are fully deployed because our, particularly our young people, are experiencing the highest levels of anxiety, depression, loneliness. Yeah. Since records have been kept.

23:33 So, I mean, we don't have a lot of undistributed resources right now. And if we're going to have a huge uptick of even 5 or 10 percent of the population that has an ab reaction to these sort of things, we need to plan for that and be there to support these folks. We need to make sure that elderly people aren't scammed on the Internet with people saying you need to sell everything and we'll bury a school bus for you in the mountains to create a bunker so you can be safe from this invasion of aliens, etc. We need to be prepared to support our society if people feel like human exceptionalism doesn't hold true. The evangelical community can have a problem in what their belief systems have been. A lot of things can happen from a psychosocial standpoint. And I take that very seriously. So, I think, but I think we can handle it. I think people deserve to know.

24:36 I think they can handle it. I think we need to be responsible in helping them. And you've seen things that would suggest that these kind of preparations need to be made. Not that there's a panic, but we just need to be prepared. So, what is it that you have told people that you know and that people are entitled to know? Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's interesting that I think HHS and Bobby Kennedy, assuming Trump releases all the information, is going to play a big role to include the... There's an administration for strategic preparedness readiness called ASPR that would need to be involved as well to coordinate that response. So, I totally agree with you. There's kind of an undervalued fact that you're going to have to have this behavioral health and public health communication strategy. So, in terms of what my, you know, exposure was, I had folks from the retrieval program, I'll call it exfiltrate audiovisual evidence for me to see both video and photos. And that was, you know, audiovisual evidence

25:38 of the retrieved craft, some of the dead cadavers that were recovered, you know, call it the pilots, as I said, in my interview with Nancy Mace. And, of course, I interviewed a ton of subjects all the way up to the cabinet White House level that had close personal participation in this subject. And, of course, because I wasn't hands-on, so to speak, and saw this in person, I brought a lot of those people to the Intelligence Community Inspector General under the Biden administration, you know, so they could hear from the horse's mouth. They can get information on the locations of where this is being held, where the archives facilities are, where they hold all the program records, et cetera. And, of course, this complaint was, you know, considered credible and urgent. Admiral Haynes was forced to send it to the Senate and House Intelligence Committees in summer 2022. And then I subsequently provided 11 and a half hours of classified testimony to the Senate and House Intelligence Committees. Unfortunately, from what I understand, there

26:39 was a little bit of fear in those committees, especially in the Senate, and they did open up some full-field investigation. I think Mark Werner and Marco Rubio were a little nervous to really up the ante with the deep state that they were tackling. That's probably a longer discussion. And then, of course, the ICIG investigated it. And from what I understand, back-channeled to me unofficially is Jake Sullivan in White House General Counsel Office basically told Tom Monheim, who was the Inspector General for the Intelligence Community under Biden, and his staff to stop. And they realized they were bumping into White House classified programs, something called special access programs, and eventually they were told to stop, from what I understand. And I would love for Mr. Monheim and Jake Sullivan, who's been in many interesting meetings about this subject. So I'd be curious what Mr. Sullivan has to say for himself when he was the National Security Advisor in his history on this

27:40 topic. So once again, I hope Secretary Rubio is helping Stephen Miller at the White House, because I'm hearing mixed messages about Stephen Miller's seriousness. And I hope he understands how this will impact President Trump's legacy, if this is botched. I think the JFK files release, unfortunately, it was just released to the public. And I think, even as a former intel officer, I still haven't come to a conclusion. What happened to JFK? Did CIA and the mob kill him? Or what? It wasn't curated. It wasn't, you know, explained to us what all this means. And I think the same thing needs to happen with the UFO file drops. It needs to be done in a professional way that's consumable for the public. Well, one of the things that I have objected to is that these tranches of information that have been released have been released with very little context. Yeah. So people have a difficult time in understanding, you know, what does it all

28:42 mean? And I don't think that's by accident, frankly. I think that, I think there's a kind of an idea. I spent a lot of time in the litigation arena working as a trial scientist. And I saw clients oftentimes, if you want to hide something, do it in plain sight. Cover them up with a sea of minutiae and drop that key document in the middle of thousands of others of documents and hope that it gets lost in the confetti of documentation. And I'm wondering, as I see these five tranches of release and I see these grainy videos, I've seen gun camera video. It is crystal clear if you want it to be crystal clear and radar tracks and infrared. We're getting very degraded versions of what is available. So I'm concerned about the intention.

29:44 I don't think it's coming from President Trump. I think he intends for there to be transparency here. But I think when it gets into the bureaucratic apparatus, it's getting garbled. So to be clear, you're saying that you have seen undisputable evidence that there are craft on this planet that are not from this planet. Correct? Correct. And it's funny, I got tipped off initially, I got access, I have to be careful because some of this is still classified, to a peer adversary's intelligence reporting about what they thought was going on in the U.S. And I learned more from a particular peer adversary about what the U.S. was doing in terms of retrieval and reverse engineering of UAP than I learned from my own government officially until I started spelunking in

30:45 different archives, talking to people that were able to provide me program documentation, etc. And then I had an individual that cleared me into a program that I could learn some of the signatures that we've learned at these craft admit and how the U.S. tracks it and how they hide the tracking of UAP within the national intelligence architecture in plain sight, kind of like what you were talking about in ports, where you would never know that that was what it was actually designed to do because everything was buried and certain hardware and certain software processing was on the back end and you would never know that certain things were designed to do so. And once again, that foreign intelligence reporting, the Defense Intelligence Agency has refused to release those classified documents to Congress. And I know Representative Burleson is likely going to pulse DIA leadership to get that. And once again, where are those documents in the tranches?

31:45 I mean, I can sit on the top secret intelligence community network for about one day and I can pull a ton of information like that, that just low hanging fruit that many people can access who have systems access in that system and release a ton of more interesting stuff than you're seeing right now. So I really don't understand why the bureaucratic apparatus is resisting so hardly to getting this out there besides some of the social, psychological, national security concerns, et cetera, that have been mentioned to presidents in the past that have been briefed. And it's really unfortunate, and I hope that Stephen Miller has the wherewithal and seriousness to break this open and enlist the help of certain other people like Devin Nunes, who's the chair of the President's Intelligence Advisory Board, and I think himself and his staff would be very helpful to assist too. And I'm certainly happy to assist in my own capacity if I ever got the call or summoned. I never want to go back to government full time. Obviously, I'm a professional staff member

32:46 for Representative Burleson part time. But certainly they could, you know, ring me up if they needed to, you know, call me in to help solve this very, very quickly for the president, because I know who to call and what doors to knock on. Well, it sounds like you would be a huge jumpstart. Now, you say you have seen and have evidence that there are craft that didn't originate on this planet. Are we talking multiple craft? Yeah. Are we talking five, six, 25, 50? What are we talking about? Under 100, but more than 25 is what I could say. And the exact numbers actually are a little nebulous, because starting in the early 2000s, when a lot of money was siphoned for the global war and terror, the big defense contractors started doing their own retrievals, sort of off books, you know, under the cognizance of certain government agencies.

33:47 So there's a lot in, I'll call it, you know, private possession in defense contractor space that I think the government doesn't have a full accounting on. So it's really hard to get exact numbers. But certainly we've recovered several dozen vehicles over the last, you know, eight, nine decades or so. All right. And is there a homogeneity among these that suggests that they're all coming from the same place? Are they similar, different? There's a lot of vehicle types. You know, you have the disc, you have the sunfish, boot heel looking thing, you have boomerangs, you have crescent moon looking craft, you have tic-tacs, you have egg looking craft as well. Certainly, it's very hard to deduce origin, because it's not like we know exactly what point in space or time these things came from. But, you know, different types of pilots, if you will, different types of crafts, some similarities in operation technology.

34:50 It's sort of like if you're a car manufacturer, a lot of people build sports cars that are in the shape of a Porsche 911 or, you know, a Ford Mustang. But there's many different drivers of said sports cars, if you get the course analogy. So it's, you know, a whole taxonomy of different intelligences from very familiar type of intelligence, where they seem just a little more advanced than us, to indescribable, non-corporeal type of sentience. You know, it goes back to the orb phenomenon that came out in tranche 4, that the administration is having this issue with these luminous orbs showing up at a certain sensitive test range. What is that? You can see that it's intelligently controlled. They come in groups. This isn't just a ball lightning here, but it's this, you know, plasmoid type intelligence. Now, there might be a structured craft behind said plasmoid, and that plasma discharge might be an artifact of the propulsion system, possibly.

35:51 But we're seeing even weird stuff like that that is almost unknowable what it is, unless we have some way of studying it or capturing it that I don't know about. Right. And you have also seen pictures or video or both of life forms that are piloting these craft as well. You've seen the cadavers. Yeah. Some of the craft we've assessed that are likely drones and some of the craft that we've recovered, it is true in some of the lore in the public space. We've recovered vehicles that were empty and the pilots were not there. That actually is a true historical statement. But, yes, some of it was piloted. And it's always I always find, even though it is my reality, I always feel uncomfortable talking about that because it is such a ontologically shocking thing to talk about the pilots. But what do you know?

36:51 They look just like what people have reported seeing, like credible witnesses. You look at the aerial school event in 1994 where 80 school children in Zimbabwe saw what we would call in pop culture speak, gray, small gray aliens, exactly the way you think. And what do you know? Some of them look exactly as reported by, you know, credible observers that have nothing to, you know, gain and everything to lose by discussing their experience. And it even goes back to the work of John Mack at Harvard, who was a trained psychiatrist looking at people that have had these experiences with the phenomenon. And he deduced something is going on. This is not some, you know, psychosomatic thing or some mental health condition. And, you know, people over the eons have had these personal experiences with these things. And that is a sensitive subject that I know is still kind of stigmatized, unfortunately. Right. Of course. Have any of these pilots or occupants of

37:53 these craft, to your knowledge, been taken alive? Yes. And I know people who have had direct interactions in a detainment situation, which sounds very Star Trek and sounds very crazy, but it is true. And I talked to a cabinet member, a former cabinet member about that, who directly worked the issue for a particular former vice president. You can guess which one. Darth Vader. And were they able to communicate? Yes. And it is true that some sort of consciousness communication, you know, of course, people call it telepathy. I cannot begin to tell you how it works, but there is some sort of communication like that. And even friends of mine that were on retrievals felt that kind of communication as they approached the vehicle when they were doing a, you know, cordoning it off, waiting for

38:53 transport. How that works, what that means, I certainly don't know. I'm as curious as the average viewer on your show on how that works. And it does feel very Star Trek to me. I have no personal experience with anything like that that's outside of my normal, you know, human experience. But that is indeed, you know, what people have experienced in the government with these things. Well, I'm learning about this as I go along and, you know, I'm told that our nearest neighboring solar system is Andromeda and that it would take two and a half million years traveling at the speed of light to get there. So if these visitors have traveled from the nearest solar system, it would take two and a half million years at the speed of light, which we can't do. We can't, I think Voyager is what, 10% of

39:56 that, 18,000 miles an hour, something like that. And that's a spacecraft. So we don't, we certainly don't have any of our runway takeoff aircraft fighters that get even close to that. So we can't travel at the speed of light and if we could, it would take two and a half million years to go see them. So by the process of this deductive reasoning, they would have to be hugely advanced technologically over what we have. And from what we have seen on some of the tracking and all, their maneuverability would create G-forces that we can't sustain and we don't have the metallurgy to have the structural strength to sustain the G-forces

40:56 that making turns at the speeds they're moving at. Our best fighter would look like a yard sale if they made that kind of turn at that kind of speed. So they have to be technologically advanced, and you mentioned reverse engineering being associated with the retrieval. So I assume there's great interest in their propulsion system and how they're doing what they're doing. Yes. Is that a huge motive? It seems like if you could reverse engineer that and figure that out, that would revolutionize everything. I mean, the entire fuel systems and propulsion systems would become antiquated if you could reverse engineer what's making these things go. Yeah, and it's funny because I was cleared into some of the fruits of our labor, so to speak. And there was a lot of programs that once again, I thought we were defrauding the American taxpayer because you have a certain

41:57 smorgasbore to classify programs reported to Congress. And then Congress authorizes and appropriates funds, the funds said programs, but then you have this carved out base of technology that is sequestered. And a lot of it has civil application that would help humanity, and I have to be careful not to infer certain technologies that are unacknowledged by the federal governments. But there's a lot of things that I see civil application and that could be responsibly introduced into society to help us and to also fuel different economies and whatnot. And, yes, the closest galaxy, I think it's M31, Adronom, like you said. However, within our own galaxy, there's extrasolar planets around other nearby stars. But I do caution to ascribe this whole phenomenon as merely just extraterrestrial. That's certainly a piece of the pie. That's likely what some of this is.

42:58 But there's other, you know, taxonomies of anomalous intelligences, we'll call it, that perhaps it's extraterrestrial. Perhaps it grew up here and it left and it came back. And there's, you know, shadow biome. There's other types of origins. You know, there's under the sea that we don't understand 70% of our oceans and what advanced intelligence might have developed on the seabed, so to speak. A wink, wink. And so there's a lot of different things that this could be. I certainly don't have all the answers and I'm not omnipotent and did not have full exposure of the U.S. government's holdings and analysis of that. But we need to be open to a lot of different possible origins, none of which I think conflicts. So basic Judeo-Christian theology. But we need to be open to some of that, too, because I suspect a good portion of this is not, you know, traditionally extraterrestrial, so to speak. Do you know where some of these craft, if we

44:00 have more than 25 and less than 100, do you know where some of these are being stored and or researched as we sit here today? Yeah, the problem with that is I knew where they were historically up until the date and time that my source at that facility, you know, worked at it. And this is something I told an element of Mr. Miller's task force recently, is they're going to have to get eyes on to those facilities. There is a program protection strategy, unfortunately, to move movable archives and materials if they feel like the location has been burned or exposed. That's exactly what some of these CIA programs did during the church pike era. So that's not a kind of a conspiracy theory. So up until a couple of years ago, I was aware of U.S. government facilities and contractor facilities that both had the documentation and the material holdings and the cadavers, you know, mind you.

45:02 But once again, you know, I'm out of the biz. I don't have a mole at that facility anymore that can tell me on August 11th, 2026, it's still there, unfortunately. And that's just my own limitation. However, you know, I certainly know what the president was briefed on in his previous term and certainly what, you know, Secretary Rubio was briefed on as well and what was given to the ICIG and whatnot. And so it's up to them to do a search and seizure activity at those locations and also depose witnesses that have that information. So once again, if certainly if I ever got summoned, I would solve this very quickly and call up the A-team for the president if you wanted to get control of this issue. But some of it will have to be this process of, you know, identifying where things have been moved, unfortunately, which, you know, is an unfortunate reality. You know, they've said a lot of things about you.

46:02 They've attacked your character. They've done a lot of different things, but they haven't proven you wrong. No. That's yet to occur, and I guess it's hard to prove a negative, but I guess my question to you is if the president said, Okay, Dr. Phil, with or without cameras, whatever, if David knows where these things are and gave me the clearance to accompany you there, You have the ability to take me to where we could see a craft and a cadaver somewhere, somehow. You believe you could... Oh, yeah, we could take a little field trip out west, we'll say.

47:02 Yeah, and we could certainly go to those facilities. And you believe there would still be something at one of these places that we would be able to actually see, knock on, something three-dimensional that's there. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes certain things are hard to move, you know, when they're a particular size, it's a little bit laborious to move. So I think there's some locations that likely are untouched, because I'll be very vague on that, not to spook the herd. Yeah, I understand, and I don't, you know, I've discussed this with the president, I've discussed it with Stephen Miller, I've discussed it with Representative Burchard and Luna, I've had discussions, and I believe there are people from the president on down that truly want transparency and believe that the American people are

48:03 entitled to know their circumstance in the universe. I believe they truly want that to happen. I think it gets garbled downstream. Do you think some of these have been moved to the private aerospace industry in order to keep them outside a FOIA? Certainly, yeah, that's, and also keeping the funding outside a congressional oversight. So if you're using non-appropriated dollars and you're using a corporation whose net profits are being used to reverse engineer it. And, you know, most famously, you know, there was a DIA program in the early 2000s called OSAP, and they were actually getting, trying to get Lockheed Martin to transfer material to them outside the program for study, kind of outside the onion, so to speak, but CIA leadership denied that. I have that on very good authority that that's, that happened. And you do make a good point about proving me wrong. It's funny, I challenged DOD Arrow's office last year at a meeting.

49:05 I was in a, in a classified meeting with Representative Burleson, and I, I offered to them, okay, well, I will cross-examine witnesses for you. I named several current and former government officials that ran these programs on behalf of the government, provided them several leads. And I was like, invite me back. I'll cross-examine and extract this information from these individuals. Based on my career in the IC doing certain things, I have an unusual talent for, you know, interrogations and interviews. And once again, you know, it's been 15 months, and Arrow ghosted me and never contacted me again, because I guess they were likely afraid of, you know, what I would say or do or extract from these individuals. It's actually quite sad that that organization is as troubled as it is. But I even offered to grill these senior executives in front of the Arrow leadership, and unfortunately, they never took me up on my offer. So I've tried, and I've, you know, confronted the government that's saying that

50:05 there's nothing to see here as professionally and as calmly as possible, but certain organizations have not taken me up on my patriotic offer, unfortunately. Well, maybe the last chapter of that story has not been written yet, so I'm interested to have this conversation because I do have a dialogue with them about these things, and I would like to follow up on that as well. I have to ask, it's just in my DNA, David, as this is all unfolding, how are you doing? You know, day by day, you know, there's certainly days that, you know, I regret even getting involved in the topic. You know, I had an average at interest at best, you know, prior to getting involved, and I've made a lot of sacrifices. You know, my family's made a lot of sacrifices. You know, friends were harmed and co-workers, so I think, you know, I live with that burden and a lot of mental, emotional, and psychological scars, and I hope it was worth

51:06 it, and I really hope that President Trump delivers on his promise. I think this is going to be the singular thing that's going to define his legacy, believe it or not. I think it's not going to be the war in Iran, unfortunately. I'm not going to adjudicate, you know, that. You know, I think that's a contentious thing, but I think Mr. Miller and the President's team needs to realize that this is going to be the defining moment of his legacy because even if Trump doesn't disclose, you know, this is coming out, the genie's out of the bottle now, and it's going to look back on, like, what did the President know, and why didn't he, you know, get the information out, and that goes to W. Bush, that goes to, you know, other Presidents in the past that will access this information, and so I, you know, I'm proud to be a part of that defining moment in American history where this is finally coming out, but I've certainly bared a lot of scars, and, you know, I have to live with a lot of, you know, extra trauma, but, you know, I'm a warrior, I'm part of

52:07 America's warrior class. I was an Air Force officer, and, you know, I do my best to cope with it. Yeah. Well, I'm sure it's not easy, and I hope that you realize you got to take care of yourself in order to take care of your family, and I know you've been, as you say, been very open about your PTSD and all from Afghanistan, and you have to take care of yourself to take care of others, and I know that can get really burdensome and intense, and it's, you've done an important thing and a courageous thing. I don't want you to ever feel like you're in this alone. No, I appreciate it. That's another reason why I live remote Rocky Mountains, and I hike with my dog every day, and I try to, you know, chill out by my creek as much as possible, and I, you know, I credit my wife, who's a medical professional, and if it wasn't for her strength and her guidance and her, frankly, toughness

53:09 in many aspects, and I wouldn't want to mess with her, so she was well-trained by the CIA, and I definitely credit a lot of my resilience from her support, honestly, so. I hope she hears this, and here's what I'm saying to you, because I'm sure she will agree with it. I don't know if she knows me at all, but I know she'll, I bet you she'll agree with me about taking care of yourself. Oh, I agree, yeah. She wanted me to tell you that she wrote you and Oprah in in 2008 as candidates for president and vice president as writing candidates, so, you know. Well, we know that she doesn't always have good judgment then, so. Hey, you never know. You never know. You'd be an excellent vice president, sir. Well, listen, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, and I want to respect your time, but I hope we can do this again, and sooner rather than later. Absolutely, sir. I'd be happy to. All right, it was a great conversation. Thank you so much, and thank you for your

54:10 courage in what you're doing and for being here and talking more about this. Absolutely. Whatever is out there, David's story is absolutely a reminder that asking hard questions and getting to the truth is every citizen's right, and listen, I just want you to be critical thinkers. You may believe that there's something there. You may believe we're alone. You may believe we're not, but you have the right to have information and think critically about it, and you have the right to decide what it means to you, whether it's significant to you and your belief systems or not. And look, the government works for us, and we're entitled to get the truth from them, and it's people like David who have the courage to step up and shine lights on things that we otherwise wouldn't know were going on, and we need to

55:12 be very appreciative of that courage and strength. So thank all of you for listening. We'll talk to David again soon. Thank you for being here tonight. We'll see you next time. And don't forget, you can watch all new episodes of Dr. Phil on Envoy TV and Envoy Fast. Just go to EnvoyTV.com for more information.