Citizen Hearing 2013: Rendlesham Forest Encounter, Part 1

0:19 I do hereby affirm I do hereby affirm that I will tell the truth that I will tell the truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth to this committee today. to this committee today. Thank you very And uh welcome to our visitors and presenters this morning. I'm going to start at the right and have each member take 30 seconds just to introduce yourself. We have our counselor on the end who was an excellent expert witness yesterday. Would you get We got about 15 seconds, please. Open up with introductions. We have new people in the room. So, yes, uh we identify us? Yes, you Oh, I yeah, my name's Dan Sheehan. Uh I'm general counsel for the committee and uh I've been involved in this for about 20 years, probably uh in in these kind of hearings since representing Dr. John Mack uh in front of the Harvard faculty committee and uh prior to that time I participated, as I mentioned, in the preparation of a special report from the Congressional Research Service to

1:20 President Carter on this issue back in 1977. Thank you very much, sir. Madam Congresswoman? Yes, I'm Congresswoman Darlene Hooley. Um left Congress 4 years ago, had a wonderful experience while I was there. It was an amazing thing to do and I am back home in Oregon and have a business and am am delighted that I was invited. I served on the Science Committee. Delighted that I was invited to attend these meetings and I will tell you yesterday was spectacular. Really appreciate all the witnesses um and I learned something new. It was fascinating to me. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Mike Gravel, uh senator from Alaska for two terms. Uh been out of office for 40 years. So, uh but I found the hearings absolutely very interesting, edifying and I really want to congratulate those who put this

2:21 conference on. Thank you. I'm Roscoe Bartlett. I had the great honor of serving Maryland's 6th District in the Congress for 20 years. I didn't come to the Congress until I was 66 years old. So, obviously I had a life before that. I have a PhD. I worked for the military various everywhere you can work for the military for 20 years before I came to the Congress. Taught medical school. Really great honor to serve and really pleased that I was asked to be a part of this activity. Thank you. Congresswoman? I'm Lynn Woolsey from just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. Retired 4 months now after 20 years in Congress and um served the entire 20 years on the Science Committee and on the Education and Labor Committee and find uh this issue that we're talking about this week uh absolutely stimulating and important. Uh not just the uh

3:21 uh extraterrestrial piece of it, but mainly the uh governance and uh knowing what's going on in our government and comparing with other governments. So, uh I too am honored that I was asked to be part of this. Thank you, Congressman. I'm Merrill Cook. I had the great opportunity to serve the state of Utah as a congressman from the 2nd District, which is basically the Salt Lake City metropolitan area. I Among other committees, I was pleased to serve on the Science and Space Subcommittee and the Aviation Subcommittee. Thank you. Need no introduction on me and Mr. Bookman. I'm Dr. Joseph Bookman. I hold a PhD from Indiana University. I ran for Congress in 2008 as a libertarian. I'm currently the chair of the Libertarian Party's Platform Committee and I serve as a researcher for the Paradigm Research Group. Thank you. And I'm Congresswoman Carolyn Kilpatrick, 14 years in the House of Representative, 12 on the Appropriations Committee, first African-American woman

4:23 to serve on the Defense Appropriations Committee, which was a thrill and served on the Air Force Academy Board for five or six years in that time. So, you have here over 80 years of service in public service and giving and I I want to tell you to a person some of the best. So, the again, to commend staff for putting this together. I know you guys have been in it 30, 40, 50, 60 years and up. We're neophytes and we're here to learn and to hopefully take back something so that we can move forward like the rest of the world on this topic. Welcome. Okay, Mr. Pope. Thank you. Thank you. Madam Chair, um fellow committee members. My name is Nick Pope, formerly of the British Ministry of Defense. I had responsibility for the UFO issue from 1991 to 1994 and with your permission, I'm just going to read a a brief statement onto the record. The United Kingdom's best known and most compelling UFO incident is a series of sightings that occurred in December 1980

5:24 and are collectively known as either the Rendlesham Forest incident or the Bentwaters incident. The sightings took place near the twin base twin military bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge. These were bases in the United Kingdom operated by the United States Air Force. There were several dozen military witnesses, the most senior of whom was the Deputy Base Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles I'll give a brief summary of events as I see them before focusing on events aspects of the case on which I have more direct knowledge. On December 26th, 1980, two members of the United States Air Force, my colleagues John Burroughs and Jim Penniston here, who had been sent to investigate a a suspected crashed civilian aircraft, encountered an unknown craft which had apparently landed in a small clearing. One of them got close enough to see strange hieroglyphic symbols on the side and indeed to touch it.

6:26 The craft rose slowly above the trees and then accelerated away at great speed. A subsequent analysis of the landing site showed indentations in the ground, scorch marks on the sides of the and radiation levels which the Ministry of Defense's Defense Intelligence Staff assessed as being significantly higher than the average background and the committee will have a small pack of of papers including that Defense Intelligence Staff assessment. The UFO was briefly tracked on military Two nights later, the UFO returned and fired light beams at the Deputy Base Commander and a small team of men who had gone to investigate. It later fired light beams at a particularly sensitive area of the military base. Though these events happened many years before I joined the Ministry of Defense, it was a case that was raised with me on numerous occasions during my time working on MOD's UFO project between 1991 and 1994. It was certainly the case

7:28 on which I received most inquiries from UK parliamentarians, from the media and indeed from the So as to be able to better respond to these questions, I not only read all the relevant papers on the case, but also launched a retrospective review of the incident, something akin to what the police would call a cold case review. Subsequent to this, I've met in a private capacity most of the witnesses to this incident. Investigations by the United Kingdom were inconclusive. I do not know the results of the US investigations because as the MOD documents released under the UK's Freedom of Information Act show, some evidence was removed by the US authorities without informing the British government. Specifically, the MOD case file reveals and the committee members will have this document, too, that shortly after the incident, General Gabriel visited the twin bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge, was briefed on the incident and took

8:30 various items relating to the investigation back to his headquarters in Ramstein, Germany. At the time, General Gabriel held the post of Commander-in-Chief, United States Air Force in Europe. The MOD document concerned, though carefully worded, leaves little doubt that the UK authorities were less than pleased with evidence being removed in this way, with the MOD not being informed at the time and not, so far as I'm aware, being briefed subsequently on the conclusions of whatever United States Air Force and or Department of Defense investigation followed General Gabriel's visit. My cold case review showed that General Gabriel's removal of the evidence was one of a number of factors that adversely affected the contemporaneous investigation. A combination of confusion over jurisdiction, i.e. between the UK and the US authorities, delay and poor information sharing fatally undermined the original

9:33 Part of the problem was that the US investigation was in of itself a direct contradiction of the US government's public line on UFOs, namely that the subject is of no official interest and that no official investigations took place after the termination of the USAF's investigative program Project Blue Book at the end of 1969. This clearly put senior United States Air Force officers in an extremely difficult position and it was clear to me that the US authorities wish to hand the investigation off to the British while the Ministry of Defense was equally keen to see the Americans take the lead. The confusion over precisely what happened at the time is compounded by the fact that some Ministry of Defense Defense Intelligence staff UFO files covering the time period of the Rendlesham Forest incident have been destroyed seemingly without proper While I'm aware that this action has generated some conspiracy theories, I'm

10:34 not aware of any evidence that suggests this was a deliberate attempt to hide information though I know that some people dispute that point. While some internal Ministry of Defense emails expressed delight at the loss of these files, my assessment is that these were unfortunate remarks by comparatively junior staff and were motivated by nothing more sinister than the relief of not having to respond to further Freedom of Information Act requests for the documents. By the Ministry of Defense's own admission, there was no definitive explanation for the Rendlesham Forest incident and the case remains unexplained to this day. However, when pressed to make a statement on the incident, MOD consistently said that the events were judged to be of no defense significance {quote} {unquote}. Um a catch-all sound bite that the MOD consistently used with all UFO sightings explained or unexplained. In this way, MOD could justify taking no further action whatever the circumstances of a

11:37 It's worth quoting uh in conclusion the assessment of Lord Hill-Norton, retired five-star admiral who was former Chief of the Defense Staff and former Chairman of NATO's Military Committee. Commenting on MOD's no significance line no defense significance line on Rendlesham Forest, Lord Hill-Norton said, "My position both privately and publicly expressed over the last dozen years or more is that there are only two possibilities. Either an intrusion into our airspace and a landing by unidentified craft took place at Rendlesham as described or B, the Deputy Base Commander of an operational nuclear-armed US Air Force base in England and a large number of his enlisted men were either hallucinating or lying." It's difficult to disagree with that assessment. In the course of my cold case review, I examined critically all the various theories that sought to explain the sightings in conventional terms as misidentification, hoax, or delusions.

12:38 None of these theories fitted the facts. Most people, whatever their views on the UFO mystery, have probably heard of the alleged crash of a UFO at Roswell. Arguably, in the Rendlesham Forest incident, we have a UFO incident more recent, better documented, and better evidence than the Roswell incident. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you very I want to I now yield to Patrick a couple I don't want to mispronounce your name and I appreciate you having your testimony to us last night. Presconia. Thank you, Mr. Presconia. Please proceed. Madam Chair, my name is Patrick Presconia. I'm legal counsel to James Penniston and John Burroughs, both of whom proudly and passionately served our country in the United States Air Force. Mr. Burroughs and Mr. Penniston are seated with me this morning along with Nick Pope, formerly with the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defense. Mr. Pope has been a long-time advocate for full disclosure of the events for which we will discuss today. For me, it is indeed nothing short of an

13:39 honor to be seated beside these 33 years ago at the zenith of the Cold War in 1980, Staff Sergeant James Penniston and Airman First Class John Burroughs were assigned to the twin Royal Air Force bases at Bentwaters and Woodbridge near Suffolk, England. At that time, RAF Bentwaters and Woodbridge were leased by the United Kingdom to the US Air Force. Together, the twin bases were home to the largest tactical fighter wing in existence anywhere in the world at that James Penniston held as US as well as NATO security clearances and was for the protection of sophisticated war-making assets in addition to the personnel located at the bases. By December of 1980, he was the senior security officer in charge of base security at the twin base facility. After midnight on December 26, 1980, Airman Burroughs along with Staff Sergeant Bud Steffens were on patrol together when they noticed strange

14:40 lights emanating from just outside the east gate of Bentwaters base in the adjacent Rendlesham Forest. Mr. Burroughs had been stationed at the twin base facility for nearly two years and had never seen such an unusual previously in the forest. Sergeant Steffens and Airman Burroughs telephoned Central Security Control CSC from the kiosk at the east gate to report the unidentified lights just beyond the bases' perimeter. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Penniston was briefed by Staff Sergeant Steffens regarding the strange lights that they had seen. Mr. Penniston was further informed that the lights did not result from a but had landed in the forest. This is a remark he discounted by the by Sergeant Steffens and proceeded to notify the base control center that there was instead a possible downed aircraft. Mr. Penniston also learned that an object had been seen on radar over Rendlesham Forest.

15:41 Moreover, a call came over his radio that Eastern Radar had also confirmed an object that disappeared from their over the forest. The team Mr. Penniston assembled to investigate the lights in the forest consisted of himself, Airman Burroughs, and Airman Ed As he and the rest of the team approached the forest, they experienced uncharacteristic problems with their radios. As a result, Mr. Penniston instructed Airman Cabansag to remain at the edge of the forest to act as a relay for transmissions between he and Mr. Burroughs as they entered the forest As these two gentlemen proceeded into the forest, they were expecting to find a downed aircraft. Upon arriving at the suspected crash site, it immediately became apparent to both Penniston and Burroughs that they were not looking at a crashed aerial vehicle or for that matter any kind of vehicle they'd ever seen. Suddenly, a blinding flash of white light emanating from that craft instinctively causing Airman Burroughs and excuse me, Mr.

16:43 Penniston and Burroughs to drop to the As both men returned to their feet, they witnessed a triangular craft approximately 9 ft long by 6 and 1/2 ft wide at rest in a small clearing in the Also observed were blue and yellow lights swirling around the exterior skin of the craft craft as if they were part of the craft skin itself. The air in the vicinity of the craft felt electrically charged and was in fact so full of static electricity they could feel it all over their clothes, skin, and throughout their hair. Nothing, absolutely nothing in the military training of these men had prepared them for this encounter. After perhaps 10 minutes had passed without any recognizable aggression displayed by the craft, Mr. Penniston concluded there was no threat to either himself or Mr. Burroughs and the rest of his response team or more importantly to the Bentwaters base itself.

17:44 Consequently, he commenced a thorough on-site inspection of the craft in accordance with the usual security His inspection of the craft included photographs, notebook entries, and radio contact with Airman Cabansag for relay back to the Bentwaters Control Center. Mr. Penniston noted a row of symbols which was 2 and 1/2 ft long and about 3 in in height on one side of the craft. The symbols Mr. Penniston saw were pictorial and hieroglyphic-like in design. The largest one being a triangle which was centered in the middle of others. All of the symbols were etched into the skin of the craft which was itself warm to the touch and smooth as glass. Approximately 45 minutes after arriving on scene with the craft, it rapidly began to brighten. In response, both Penniston and Burroughs took defensive positions away from it and watched as the craft became airborne without generating any air or sound disturbance.

18:45 The craft maneuvered through the trees as it ascended skyward then streaked away at an unbelievable rate of speed. In fact, Mr. Penniston described the craft's departure speed in his field notes as impossible. The craft's departure from the forest was observed not only by Mr. Penniston and Burroughs but by more than 40 Air Force personnel, all of whom were trained observers assigned to the 81st Security Police Squadron. The information acquired during Penniston and Burroughs' investigation in the forest was dutifully reported by them through normal military channels. Their team and other personnel who witnessed the craft were instructed to treat the investigation as top secret and not to discuss what they had seen. The camera film containing photographs of the craft Mr. Penniston took were turned into the base lab but when he picked them up, they were strangely all overexposed rendering them useless. Add to this oddity that following the encounter in the forest, both Penniston

19:47 and Burroughs were interrogated by government agents believed to be from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations in which narcotics were even given them prior to interrogation as if they were some kind of enemy captives. The previous description of the encounter Jim Penniston and John Burroughs had in Rendlesham Forest in late December of 1980 was not solitary. John Burroughs would or join Colonel Charles Halt on another investigation in the forest two nights when an illuminated craft moved silently through the forest before becoming multiple aerial objects overhead. Colonel Halt generate generated an official Air Force memorandum commonly referred to as the Halt memo in which he memorializes this event. Moreover, the Colonel has even stood in this very room we're in today and said he believed the objects were under intelligent control. Jim Penniston and John Burroughs both

20:47 began suffering from physical ailments after their encounter in the forest. Ailments which did not exist prior to joining the Air Force, but ailments which began almost immediately after exposure to the craft in the forest. These ailments have persisted in both men to this day. In 2011, I began assisting both gentlemen in propounding Freedom of Information Act requests on the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, Department of the Air Force, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency via the Department of Defense, Air Force Office of Special Investigations, and the Department of Veterans Affairs. All of the previously listed divisions of our government responded to our inquiries for for information regarding John and Jim by essentially saying they had nothing on file about them. The one exception is the CIA's response which was the most frustrating of them all by their stating that they could neither confirm nor deny the existence or nonexistence of records responsive to

21:48 our request. In other words, none of the governmental entities we contacted, those we just named, even the Air Force to know anything about a John Burroughs or a Jim Penniston despite the fact that we're all fairly certain they served in the United States Air Force for many We have repeatedly sought to obtain the medical records of John's and Jim's through FOIA request, but have yet to John's physicians in particular have requested his service medical records, especially those related to what it was he and Jim came into contact with in the They have requested this information time and time again from John in order to provide the best chance to treat his medical problems which have at times been life-threatening. We even enlisted the help of a former senator from John's home state of Arizona, but still did not get anything other than learning that the Veterans Administration has a classified records

22:52 In closing, I want to say that in December of 1980, I was thousands of miles away from Rendlesham Forest studying in college. I was completely unaware of the incident. I was completely unaware of these gentlemen. It would not be but for another 28 years in 2008 that I would first encounter that incident and come and become aware of But once I learned of their story, I felt compelled to assist them however I could as this was an event of tremendous fascination, importance, and one with casualties, too. It has been cowardly the way their requests for medical records and the like have been rejected using excuses like we have no records responsive to your request or the requested records are no longer under our purview. Nevertheless, we continue undaunted in our search for these gentlemen's medical records so that their physicians may properly treat them. As John Burroughs

23:54 once said to me, Jim and I have been left behind on the battlefield of the Cold War. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you very much for the both of your It's very hard to explain why a country this great can treat our military so I want to yield now to Mr. Pennington. Sergeant, I hear Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate that all of you are here today and I look forward to your questions and uh I'll try to answer them as honestly as I You know, I am it's it's been 32 years though. There's a few gray areas that I can't recall on. So, I'll try to answer them as best as I can and to and keep it strictly to the facts. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And thank you for your service. Thank you. Sergeant Burroughs. Thank you, ma'am. My name is Tech Sergeant John Burroughs, United States retired. In December 1980, I was

24:54 assigned to the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing in RAF Bentwaters, which at the time was the largest TAC Fighter Wing in the United States Air Force. During the opening day of testimony, you were exposed to the history of UFOs and the cover-up that's taking place. Today, you will be hearing from military personnel who were involved in some of these incidents. One of the factors that I feel is being overlooked is the human toll that takes place with the witnesses that are involved in these incidents. Our job was to investigate and report back in what we observed. What we were not prepared for is what happened to us afterwards. In our case, we were not only let down by our chain of command, but there's also evidence showing that we were brought in and interrogated by OSI and other agencies. What you're about to hear is what happened to us in the forest, the investigation that took place afterwards, and the evidence showing our incident is still classified 32 years later. Thank you. Were there other witnesses uh of this craft other than the two of you?

25:55 Yes, on the first night uh there was a security flight that was working and then also a law enforcement flight that was working. And that totaled somewhere between 40 and 60 people. It varied. It was over the Christmas holidays. Uh plus we had a number of civilian witnesses that came forward later on. Were there any but you two who were close to the craft and saw it on the ground or did you or did the others simply see it leaving and coming? on Bentwaters All right, the bases are two uh bases that are geographically separated by 3 mi of Rendlesham Forest. The main operating base is on on Bentwaters. Uh that's where all the control centers are. Now, the forces security forces working that night that were on I think it was about 13 of them seen it Uh then uh everybody else was working our our restricted areas on Woodbridge uh at Charlie and Delta area, they

26:58 they seen the object in the woods, but it was mostly a a dome of light that was over the woods. Uh and the forest getting direct contact uh on with the with the vehicle itself was John and I in Kirtland Air Force Uh but everybody on that was working on Woodbridge base that night and Bentwaters base that night that night seen it take off. I mean, that was That was all observed by everybody. When it landed, I gather that uh the uh it was not detailed enough so that there was some concern that it might be a crash of one of our aircraft. Well, when I approached the the craft itself uh I we were familiar with all types of aircraft and silhouettes. We practiced you know, routinely we could tell by looking at silhouettes what kind of aircraft they were, Warsaw Pact or if they were Chinese or you

28:00 know, ours. but the craft itself was void of things that aircraft need to fly. I mean, it did not have uh uh a crew compartment compartment that I could see. It did not have exhaust. It did not have intake. I couldn't I did not know what the front was. It's so it was pretty void of all those aerodynamically, well, it was a brick. I mean, there's no way that thing could fly. Uh and my mindset at the time was that was not going anywhere. It was just going to stay there. So, I had the all the time in the world. Can I take a second to add to that? Um the reason why we were sent out there by our shift commander and after a discussion on the phone was the fact that Eastern Radar was contacted and notified us that there was some kind of object over the base that disappeared in the forest. Because it was off base, our jurisdiction was limited, but because the possibility existed that something actually crashed in the forest, decision was made by the

29:02 shift commander to allow us to go out into the forest to investigate. At the same time, the local authorities were contacted, also. Was there a radar track before it landed? It was picked up on radar before it landed. Yes, what we were informed was Eastern Radar, our local radar both picked up something on radar over the forest area outside of Woodbridge Air Force Base. Okay. What were the approximate dimensions of the vehicle? Well, I had to pace them off. I took a large stride, so I measured it as 9 ft by 9 ft by 9 ft. Uh I'm 6 ft 2, so I measured it estimated at 6 and 1/2 7 ft tall. We did have berms earthen berms that were used in the forest, and so the area was uneven somewhat, Uh uh but uh it was actually actually a very small craft, and that was one of the puzzling parts of it is it was just too small for it to be piloted. And you know, in my opinion.

30:02 Was there any investigation of the landing site? Was it cordoned off, and did uh experts come to see what artifacts might have been left there? Yes, well, these security forces did an uh besides obviously us two uh did a investigation following morning, uh which included uh several security personnel, and uh then also about a week later, a little less, uh Colonel Halt informed us that uh a team from Langley came in, and they cordoned the whole area off in the east end of uh uh adjacent to the east gate where the area was, and uh they provided their own entry control, and they wouldn't allow us uh in the area. And that they were there a few days and then left, packed up and left. The uh documentation relative to this, is it now uh existing, or is it been lost, destroyed? May I take that, please?

31:02 Yes, sir. Uh yes, the British government's file on this incident has been declassified and released under the UK Freedom of Information Act, and you should all have in front of you uh Colonel Halt's initial memo to the Ministry of Defense, which certainly mentions the radiation readings that were taken at the landing site uh by a number of people, including the Disaster Preparedness Officer uh Monroe Neville's, Right. uh who who did the assessment. You should also have in your pack a British government document uh again released under the Freedom of Information Act in the UK, which is the Defense Intelligence Staff Assessment of those radiation levels that were reported to us, and you'll see that that document uh suggests that the readings were about seven times higher. Thank you. Thank you. Continue. Those who debunk the whole uh UFO thing, what do they do with this incident? How do they explain it away? I mean, it was real, you saw it, it was

32:04 tracked on radar. Uh how do they explain it away? Um we believe the cover-up started within 24 hours after the incident. There was an individual sent down town and made contact with some of the local uh what they call reporters and investigators that were involved in UFOs, and it was spread around that there was some kind of alien contact in the forest. Also, what went on after that was there was a debunker that came forward and tried to explain it away as either uh Colonel Halt, who was who was a combat controller prior to becoming, you know, command officer, that he was either fooled by stars, planets, or the local But how do they explain the radar track? It's just like all the other documents that we present, they just try to uh downplay what we have. They don't talk about They don't not talk about Yeah, I've had a very long time curiosity and interest in this, and um I

33:05 my major concern has been what do you do with those sightings that were accompanied by a radar track? You know, you can have searchlights off of clouds, and they can appear to move very, very rapidly, and the eyes can be fooled. But you know, when you have both uh visual sightings, several people seeing it, and picked up on radar, you can't just wish that one away. And I'm just curious how they deal with those number of incidents that have both visual sightings and a radar track, and in this case, you know, a landing. And and am I to understand that there are few existing records, that the records of this incident, like those from Roswell, Some of the paperwork has survived, uh but to answer the specific question about how governments deal with UFOs that are simultaneously tracked on radar, in my experience at the Ministry of Defense, uh the issue was decoupled. In other words, the Ministry of Defense

34:06 will then say um when responding to questions, uh radar is not an exact science, and anomalous returns can arise through through faults, or through uh meteorological effects. So so the governments will typically downplay the radar in that way, and and then as I say, decouple it from the the eyewitness testimony as if they were two separate issues. Uh that is true, you can have spurious uh results, but when that is accompanied by visual sightings, doesn't give that some credibility to the radar track? It does, yes, sir. Um but uh that's simply how the Ministry of Defense would would downplay that issue. Officially in uh Britain, is this handled the same way it is in our country, just denial that it exists? Uh the Ministry of Defense UFO project was based very much on the United States Air Force program Project Blue Book. Um

35:09 right from the terms of reference through to the investigative methodology, and yes, very much the conclusion was uh we we accept that people do see strange things that can't always be explained, uh but we do not believe these things to be of any defense interest or significance. That was the party line. You know, a few of these, one here and one there, and uh you it's easy to to accept that that might be just a hallucination or something, but when there are so many, so many different places over so many years, doesn't it become pretty much obligatory that something's that you recognize that something's there? I agree. Um and and that's and and indeed that's one of the reasons why I I continue to um speak out on this issue. Unfortunately, the Ministry of Defense's UFO project was the victim of defense

36:11 cuts in 2009 and has now gone the same way as the USAF program Project Blue Yeah, I think that uh that this attempt to to cover up and clearly there is that attempt to cover up uh reflects a um an attitude on leadership about the general public that I have a lot of trouble with, that somehow the general public is not able to cope with something like this, that they have to be protected, that they would panic, that they're too dumb to understand, or something like I I just don't think that this is uh the way that uh that that our general public ought to be viewed. If it's out there, if it's real, we have a right to know. And that the government which covers it if they can cover that up and make assumptions about what I ought to know, what I ought not to know, that gives me a lot of concern. Thank you very much for your testimony. Thank you. Uh no,

37:12 Mr. Sergeant Burroughs, do you have something you want to add there? No. You're fine. Thank you, Congressman. Congresswoman Hooley, please. All right, thank you very much. Thank you uh all for being on this panel. And and Sergeant Peniston and Sergeant Burroughs, thank you for hanging in here. This has been a lot of years you've carried this around with you. Um what are you doing now? Uh not this minute, but in life. I know Okay, I got I got I got that. No, I we're in the process of uh making this a historical document. We're writing a book, the three of us together to put this out, and uh I I I recently I you know, I was a human resource director for county government for 20 years. Actually, I've been out of service uh retired now for 20 years this year, so. And and in your record Well, uh Sergeant Burroughs, what are you doing now?

38:14 yes, ma'am. I um retired from the Air Force in 2006, uh-huh, and I uh took a couple civilian jobs, and also was a basketball coach. But because of my current medical conditions, um I'm uh basically limited in what I can do, and um I'm trying to work on getting disability. So, uh your current medical uh situations, both of you. So, are you getting treated by the Veterans Administration for this your your illnesses? Barely. Okay, they they have addressed a few issues uh uh like with uh the uh inner ear problems of balance see, one of the problems was is initially, I mean, we were supposed to treat it as top secret, and which we did. I followed orders. Uh and then when I did have I had to go to the base uh hospital because I I was

39:16 having problems walking. I mean, it was it was like within 3 weeks after the So, here I am with a dilemma, do I violate orders and tell them because they asked me, and they says, "Have you been exposed to radiation So, um I followed orders and said no. I mean, it was obvious that that hit was radioactive out there at night because it was so warm to touch. So So you did touch it. That was going to be my Yeah, that that's That's probably the the worst decision I made, I think, touching that. Yeah. I didn't after the initial contact with it and then and then the explosion of light, I I didn't touch it again though. I mean, I I just walked around it and uh tried to write down as many notes I I I could. Getting back to the medical issues, um in 19 I got out in 1993, retired, and uh early 1994, I went to uh

40:19 uh I was just having terrible time sleeping. I mean, I was getting maybe 2 3 hours a night of sleep and um so I decided I went to my doctor and she said, "Well, maybe I'll send you to a psychiatrist. It could be some PTSD." They didn't call it that then, but uh and I said, "Okay, we'll try that." is a VA doctor? No, I had to pay for that myself. They wouldn't The VA said I didn't have a medal for combat in So I know that makes no sense. I said I had an incident I told them all about that. I had an incident I said I can't It was classified and I can't tell you what it it is, but uh it's fair viable viable with the uh the government. I said the Air Force. But anyway, they wouldn't I went to my own doctor, my own MD, and she referred me to a uh I told her I wanted a reasonable price psych psychiatrist. I mean, that's impossible. I I want you to know that. There's no reasonable pricing on that. So I go there and uh you know, after a couple of visits, she says, "You know

41:19 what I like to do? Cuz I think she was thinking like, "Oh, maybe you're abused when you were a child or something like that." I don't know. Who knows? And um and she says, "I'd like to do some hypnosis with you and and you know, trans rational hypnosis." And we'll try that. She says, "I'm going to tape it because that's what I use for notes." So I said, "Okay." And so and she says, "You won't remember nothing. I'll make sure that you don't remember anything from it." And uh and she says, "I'll get you sleeping all night." I said, "Great." and then I I come out of the hypnosis. It was like 2 hours. And she's like She looked like I don't She Her mouth is down at the bottom of the table. And she says, "Tell me about RAF And I said, "Well, I said I think it's classified. I don't know." And they said, "Well," they said, "you know," and uh and I remembered when I got out there was a specific question I asked about it being classified and they come back with some weird answer. The Pentagon

42:20 uh information officer said that uh nothing classified happened at Bentwaters, so therefore nothing is classified for you to worry about. Which is so ridiculous of an answer from the Pentagon. I mean, what they what they should have said is uh the incident is classified. And then that means I can't talk about it. But that does That wouldn't mean you couldn't be treated because you could talk in generalities. Yes, I have been to radiation. So um I did have another question. Did you want me to answer it? Yeah, I want you Yes, please. For me, shortly after the incident happened, um I started not feeling well. At one point, my gums turned white. Um sh- a couple of 3 months later, uh while home on leave, I became very ill and went into the emergency room. Okay, the doctor there listened to my chest and came back and

43:21 says, "Well, what does the Air Force say about heart murmurs?" And I looked at him and I says, "I don't have a heart murmur. Um I just shortly joined the Air Force and my physical said I had a clean bill of health." And one of the other interesting things to know about a heart murmur is you're not allowed to enter the United States Air Force if you have a heart murmur. It's against So at that point, I wasn't sure how or why I got it. And the other question was later on when I had vision problems was from the doctor down at Wilford Hall was, "Have you ever been exposed to Again, I had did not relate back at that point to the time in the fields at Rendlesham So 3 years ago, I got really sick one day. I went into the um urgent care thinking I had bronchitis. They put me on an EKG machine and they rushed me to the hospital. I was in A-fib, congestive heart failure.

44:21 At that point, they did a bunch of tests in the hospital. They shocked my heart back into regular rhythm, but none of the tests were conclusive on why I would have A-fib or congestive heart failure. I was released, followed up with my civilian doctor, and eventually the insurance company blocked any more tests because there was nothing showing why I could have any of those incidents. I was a non-smoker as far as cigarettes. I didn't drink alcohol. Everything was clear in my arteries and everything else, so my doctor was perplexed. My heart did rebound and I went back to a normal life. 8 months later, I walked into the emergency room and my heart rate my heart um fracture rate was down to 10%. I was the walking dead. They transferred me immediately down to a uh heart hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. So you're not but you're not being treated by the VA. No, I'll get to that in a minute. I'll get to that how this all about. Because of all this, Mr. Frescona started inquiring with the

45:21 government, the VA, and everybody else about cuz my doctors were requesting my medical records from the military, about my records. Senator Kyl, who I sent a letter to in December January of 2010, took my case. He started looking into it. Okay. During the process of his investigation, uh we received a letter which we have here today and a phone call from his from one of his senior staffers saying it appears to that my records are located in a classified VA section, which the staffer told me, which is not well known to anybody, to include members of Congress. She said, "We came across this when we were doing an investigation on PTSD and Agent Orange and we kept running into things that uh we couldn't get past and we discovered this classified section." Okay. My initial request for my um VA records

46:22 were denied. The VA said that because I've not filed for disability, they would not even release my medical records which belong to me. They would not release my records to my doctor so I could receive treatment because I had not filed for disability and allowed the VA to review it. Senator Kyl had me go in, file disability claim, and bring him that claim. This was in June of 2010. In November of 2010, after not hearing from him, we sent him a letter. His response back to us was, "I was unable to obtain your records. My suggestion is because I'm retiring is to try to contact Senator McCain and see what he can do for you." Now, I've gone almost a year without getting any any reaction or any kind of care from the Veterans because my records are classified. Finally, after a few months, Senator McCain was able to move up my claim and I got was seen by the VA in Prescott,

47:23 When I met with the doctor who's reviewing my case, we started discussing my case. She looks at me and she says, cuz I keep referring back to '79, '80, and '81. She looks at me directly in the face and says, "Sir, I have no DD Form 214 for you from this uh of uh from 1979 to '82. It does not show you being in the United States Air Force. And subsequently, I have no records medical records of you during that time frame." I looked at her and I said, "Oh, what a surprise. That means they're classified." She looked back at me in shock and said, "There's some things we don't have a need to know. There's people above us that handle this." thank you. What I was going to say that and I would like to ask Mr. Pope a question, but what I was going to say uh have you gone through your congressional offices because I know in my district, we would have turned that into a major case and demanded We can

48:24 You can't tell them what they what the outcome has to be, but you can demand information all the way down to why you know, What was interesting about both Senator for a waiver. What was very interesting about Senator Kyl and Senator McCain is they would not comment on anything other than they would attempt to get the VA to treat him. That was it. Right. But McCain got you that far. Well, I'm I'm currently now I was Yes, interviewed by the VA. Okay. And and Mr. Peniston I'm not having too good of success with Senator Kirk. Well, push. Um I mean, you really have to because I yield the Congresswoman additional 2 minutes. Oh, thank you. Because uh they they are your advocates uh I mean, our it's our responsibility to be the the interference between uh and the conduit between our constituents and the and federal And the idea that you were in the Air Force and they say

49:26 you weren't, I mean, this is not okay. And these the your members of Congress and senators have to uh go front for you on this. We're we're doing this alone. I know. Mhm. But it I'm we're not getting the help that we need with it. Uh I mean, uh when when the um Pat, our attorney, uh I mean, uh we're we're retired air force. There's no doubt about that. I uh but he tried to get my records, and only records they're going to provide him is from the time I got out. What Yeah, I know it. But but But what I'm hearing is that uh with uh Burrows and um probably yourself, Jim, that uh they are denying you were even in the Air Force the first when you were in I mean, that is Come on, that's criminal. This is the United States of America. So, if something has to be fixed with that. I have to ask Nick Poker Poker question,

50:28 okay? And um I want to know I want to know uh when the incident happened in Great Britain and it wasn't even on the uh base, why did America the Americans become the lead in the investigation? This was in Great Britain. My assessment of that is that because the incident was regarded as a security incident, um the Americans did have the jurisdiction to go off base. Um it it's the umbrella piece of legislation, as I understand it, is the NATO status of forces agreement. And jurisdiction can actually be concurrent in a security situation. The US do have the authority to go outside the wire. Uh but um the UK um juris have jurisdiction, too.

51:30 But the US took primacy because it was a security event. Okay, thank you. Uh Could we Uh let me just make a statement here. I've been invited by our uh Congressional Research Service uh gentleman on the end there that because you were so obedient had such short opening statements, we do have a little leeway time here. So, I'm going to yield uh the Congresswoman two more minutes for the the attorney here. Thank you. Uh Mr. Frascogna, go now. I just wanted to add that um I'm not helping these gentlemen for my career's sake. Okay. I'm doing it they're worthy of an effort being put forth on their behalf. as I had said in the opening statement, um their case is so compelling. Uh There's just no way I could I could leave it without trying to do something for it. I wanted to say, though, I I worked for a member of the California delegation in the 1980s.

52:31 Legislative uh assistant there, too. And one of my issue areas was Bureau of Land Management. The oddest thing we came across in that office at the time were nude sunbathers in the deserts of that I would have to deal with. Shame, Well, it it it goes to the next point I want to make, which will All I would do is call the liaison with BLM and have them send a car out there and move them it's interesting to watch the reaction uh whenever I approach, particularly in the or in this case with John uh Senator Kyl's office, everybody gets to a point, for lack of a better word, weird at some point when you bring up the Rendlesham case. Everybody gets weird at some point. And although I understand the senator was retiring, he had had almost a year, or rather his some LA on his um in his office did.

53:31 If that had been me, uh Congressman Thomas would have fired me if after a year I had not resolved a constituent's Uh so, uh nothing against Senator Kyl or his staff, but it goes to show how there is a wall at some point you reach in this thus we're we're at the point that we are. Okay. And um searching for answers. hoping that others of my colleagues up here are going to continue this this conversation because they've told me I'm I've outworn my welcome for a moment. Very good. Very good line of questioning. Thank you, Congresswoman. Senator Gravel. Yeah, I'll I'll continue to pursue that line of It's I get my health services from the VA, so I have some uh hands-on uh experience with them. Is this the first time you've brought your case in a public hearing, or has it all been on direct contact through your

54:34 attorney uh or through your own efforts with the VA? Is this the first time this is being made public? Yes, sir. Um what we were trying to do is work within the system, which has failed us so far, and trying to get some kind of, you know, care and results on what's going on. And like Mr. Frascogna said, every time we reach a certain point, we get stonewalled. So, at this point we felt it was time to make it public. Let Let Let me just give you a little bit of You know, God helps those who help themselves. And so, you you've got to be a lot more aggressive. When when the political system that you interfaced with, I'm not even got got to the VA yet, uh was not responsive with any immediacy, and this is what uh Carolyn was referring to, is that uh you know, it's a it's a it's a given on our side in our activities that when you have a case that just cries out for attention,

55:36 you just put the muscle on it, and you make sure that there's an intelligent response. And so, I'm somewhat horrified that to just hear your story uh because uh you know, we're dealing with bureaucracies, and bureaucracies are human beings, and some human beings are responsive, and some are not. And you clearly have run into a series of bad luck of those who aren't responsive. The classification uh problem stymies me uh that they would classify your records or not acknowledge that you had served. You have a discharge document, right? Okay. So, so that proves that you were somewhere for some period of time. And uh and and so, I I just really want to say that uh get back on this. You'll obviously there'll be some attention as a product of this uh hearing, but I think that you want to get back to your Congressional uh persons, and uh and and and really be

56:37 aggressive. This is just unfair. This is just gross uh incompetence and negligence on the part of the government, and you're the victims of this. And uh my wife and I whenever I go to a doctor or what I bring my wife along, you need an advocacy. You need somebody to stick on top of the issues, not just because you're you're you're you're somewhat of a in a bad situation when you're in front of a doctor. You're just giving them the information. Well, sometimes they're competent, sometimes they don't care. I had a doctor in uh the VA, and and uh you know, she told me I I really wasn't ill, you know, and I was wasting her time. She there's more important people to see that are ill. Well, I made a complaint right to the top at that VA hospital, and I want a new doctor, period. And the new doctor I got was a sympathetic caring person, and uh and and helped me a great deal. So, you've got to take

57:38 that that responsibility on yourselves. We're And And that's the best advice I can give you is is be aggressive. Don't put up with this crap from a bureaucracy that's unresponsive. Uh and whether it's a Congressional uh area that's unresponsive or the VA that's unresponsive, you you know, here again, squeaky wheel gets the grease. And so, you've just got to do that, and you got to take somebody with you to act as an advocate when during examination because you can't remember everything that they're saying to you. Let me ask uh can you share with uh with us a little bit more uh first, Jim, yourself, um your your the physical problem that you're experiencing. Well, like I said earlier, uh it started out with the inner ear problem. Eventually, that which which affects your balance and Right. But you know, if you do if you're in that have that condition long enough, you you're in the compensating quite a

58:38 bit. You can do those things. Um They eventually uh did say it was Meniere's uh disease uh on separation. They needed to do that, and I can get treated for that, which I do get medicine for for that. Uh but approximately 2 years after the I mean, I got violently sick. Uh I got put in the hospital. Apparently, I had my heart infection, and it was a heart-related. I never had anything like that before. And I almost died. Uh it was a uh touch-and-go situation, and I anyway pulled through it, and uh I'd like to have those those records. Uh why would that happen? And uh Every Every Everything they come up with, they they They always have These records VA now are private are uh US Air Force um you know, when I was in. During your when you were in service? They're active duty. Yes. Did they in your VA records right now is

59:42 it on a computer in other words are you part of in the system at this Yes, I'm in the system for the Meniere's part. The other stuff they they won't treat. But everything should be in the in the computer. In other words it's a history that and the Congress has appropriated a lot of money to to to get this done. Well, if the gentleman will yield to me one minute. I sure will. It's my my understanding that they started from a certain point and went forward. They have these guys records in a box somewhere or in a file cabinet or something and they intend to bring it all up to date, but I would guess that they're not for back back then when they don't even acknowledge they were in the Air Force that it's in the computer. How old are I'm 58. Okay, so I'm old enough that I bounce one from the other if I'm not happy I'll go to or VA preferably VA

1:00:45 and your age? 52, sir. Okay, you both got a little bit of time to wait. But in your case there's no record at all of you in the VA system. Okay, two things happened with Senator Kyl. Number one, when he initially requested my records they didn't exist. They weren't where they were supposed to And after second letter was sent and it was interesting the way the St. Louis treated him. He they they told him they they tried to look into it for They said we'll try to locate his records, but they're not where they Eventually they were able to get part of my personnel records released. Okay. And then from the the personnel my DD form 214 is missing from 79 to 82. When I went in saw the doctor, she was the one that brought up to me that there was no medical records in her file that she had received for me from 79 to 82 and she looked at me funny and said you

1:01:47 there's no record of you being in the Air Force from 79 to 82 and I pulled out a piece of paper that I brought with me showing where I I came in the Air Force enlisted in 1979 and I also showed her the physical showing that I came in with no heart problems and my exit physical with heart problems and that changed her attitude towards me at that point. And again like I said, she looked at me and said there's some things that we don't have need to know and I said to her I says well, how are you going to do a fair evaluation on my case? Because you're the one that's going to recommend whether I receive disability and what kind of treatment I get am I correct and she said yes, sir. And she well, sir, what I can tell you is there might be somebody above me that will have to look into this incident at this Yeah, that's sort of I hate to admit this as a former senator, but my experience generally has been that you get better casework from the house member than you do from the senator. And I hate to admit that, but that's a fact. Can can I bring up a point?

1:02:50 Sir, can I bring up a point though? The reason why we contacted Senator Kyl was his vast experience in helping helping veterans. He had a vast staff in Phoenix than we did our research that their job and they did were very successful at helping veterans solve their cases. Were they successful helping you? No, sir, they weren't and she was very frustrated she was very frustrated with me when I met face to face with her. She told me you're probably never going to know what happened to you. But hopefully we can at least get you some care. That's what the agent told They've got to learn what happened to you because you can't go to a doctor and have a or have a void because they can't practice medicine that way. I'm fascinated by one thing. I'd like to move away from the VA and again, let me it's your responsibility be aggressive and not take no for an answer. You've served, you paid your dues and you're entitled to be taken care of by the by the country that you've served. So

1:03:54 If if you're not getting satisfaction here, go there, but be aggressive. The thing that I'm fascinated by now you did not touch the craft. He touched the craft, right? No, sir, I did not touch the craft. Okay, now I want you to walk us through you're you're walking up to it and you touch it. What do you do? Touch it that or you grab it? Tell us about that. Okay. Well, after the explosion of light and we did hit the ground. I mean we were I thought it was going to explode. That's good training. I mean it was reaction. So there was no noise, so I I got up and composed myself with just a composed myself just a little bit and I I said well, I got to do what I I I'm supposed to do. I need to investigate and get as much information as I can and report it back someone of a higher pay grade, you know, who can make a decision on this. I I felt uh

1:04:56 since there was no reaction from it at the at at the beginning um it was non-hostile. I mean it didn't look like it was going to go anywhere. It looked like it was fixed. It's going to stay there. So I started doing the walk around 360 of the uh of the object and as I came around I I seen there was inscription on on the front on I was actually relieved. I thought it was going to say United States Air Force uh NASA some product I was looking for And when I seen the the glyphs I well, you know, your imagination does all when I went into that forest I never believed in UFOs ET alien and I still don't by the way. This is what you saw, That's what I saw. you know, I'm having a hard time rationalizing this because I really wanted to be aircraft crash too. I mean there's all kinds of things I wanted to

1:05:56 be because it didn't look like an aircraft crash. I was just trying to make it an aircraft crash. Uh because we lost contact you know, prior 15 minutes I said they gave us permission to go off. So I started walking around the craft and I I seen the glyphs and as I you know, ran my hand from the fabric of the uh it was smooth to touch. You ran your hands along it? Oh yeah, I started feeling it and I says well, first thing I looked at was underneath it because I said how is this thing Just a couple minutes. Thank you. I'll take whatever I can get. You know, I was wondering how I was wondering how sir was being uh how it was sitting there in the in the So there was light emanating from underneath it. So as I looked down there was no landing gear. But it was hub it was up off the ground maybe 2 ft. So here I am pushing the craft.

1:06:57 Doesn't move. Nothing. It's solid as can So I said okay, so I'm start running my hand across humming when you tried to There was complete silence. There was uh the the the the air temperature at that time is about 32°. When I touched the craft it felt like metal smooth metal and I would say and this is a estimate guess. Do you have gloves on or did you was it your own skin? No, it was my own skin. Anyway, I figured the temperature of it might have been 45 50°. unbeknownst to me it probably was radio you know, radio radioactive. And that's probably why it was warm. Uh I didn't realize that at the time, but uh And then then as I walked around it I uh I knew it was nothing that I that we had and it surely wasn't nothing the Russians had. No, it it was beyond our our technology.

1:07:57 Thank you very much. I only want to leave one two words with you. Question authority. Just don't take Question authority. In the sergeant's defense in the military you just do what you're told and you do your job. So yeah, I mean all you all know that so and you're senator you're a senator. So that makes that makes a difference. You get a little bit more out of that. But but no, your point I know. I know we do have to do that particularly in today's world for sure. But I walk in and I get good care as a human being. They don't know I'm Oh no, I don't believe that. Yeah, I yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Excuse me, Congresswoman Hooley. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for taking your time to testify. I found it fascinating. When this aircraft landed how long did it take for the public to find out that this object this aircraft this thing had landed? Some local people were aware of this

1:09:01 incident almost immediately and indeed there are a number of civilian witnesses who have gone on the record with that. The document that you'll have from the deputy base commander Lieutenant Colonel Charles Halt was made public in 1983. Okay. For many years this was the only piece of paper that had been released in that way, but it was 1983 that it went public. And was there So, it went public, but what before that was there any Did they try to cover up that this thing had landed? Uh yes, I my understanding is that uh a number of local reporters and indeed a number of local investigators of of strange phenomena were aware that something had happened, questioned aggressively um the the Bright Base press office were were told that nothing had occurred

1:10:03 and it was only when this document was released under the Freedom of Information Act that the authorities were forced to say, "Oh yes, we did have an incident." Uh but it was it even then it was downplayed. Okay. Were there other members of the military that were out there walking around the craft like you were? Uh no, ma'am. Uh I was the I was the only one that walked around the craft. Um John was incapacitated at the time, um by whatever visual um lighting that was causing him to be enveloped in it, I Uh he's just recently came public with And uh I've known about that for years, but this is a human journey we're going through also um to be able to deal with certain uh emotional issues with it. And so, John be uh went public with that. Uh but that's one of the things I kept secret until he was ready. What was happening to him. And the poor

1:11:05 guy one night wasn't enough, he did it on two two nights. Same thing happened to him, so uh it's very disturbing actually for me to think that would happen to somebody. you know, I was helpless. I did what I had to do. I I I I figured I was going to die out there at night. So, I figured I was going to get as much information, do my job. Uh and uh Well, we're here, so So, so you were the Were you the only two out there? No. On the on the first night it it this actual incident took place over three nights. Okay. Three nights, okay. you look at the Halt memo, you'll see that the date is wrong on the first night when it started. That was one of the things that we've questioned and we were able to prove eventually that the initial date that he put down was not wrong was not correct. But the first night was our incident, the second night there was a small incident where they observed lights again in the forest moving around.

1:12:06 And they sent two personnel out to investigate. One of them's the on-duty shift commander. At one point a beam of light shot down at their vehicle, through it, and shut the vehicle off. At that point, she was so upset, she was relieved of duty and sent home for the rest of the night. On the third night, which is the Colonel Halt incident, which he describes in the memo, there were several areas of reported, you know, incidents that went on, but one of the most interesting parts is he recorded a tape. I believe it's about what, 13 minutes long, Nick? Was it 13? 17. 17 minutes long of real time what was going on. If you get a chance to listen to the tape, at one point you're going to hear "Now, whatever it is is coming at us from the south. There's a beam of light shining down on our feet. This is unreal." And you should hear the emotion in his voice. And this is a frontline officer that was a combat controller at one point, and you can clearly hear the

1:13:08 concern in his voice. So, there was several other incidents that took place also besides ours. So, how many people actually saw this? Did anybody I mean, I would think you you were in a base or near a base, We were We were probably um uh 300 yd from Woodbridge. Working that night at Woodbridge and uh and Bentwaters um they I know you said 40, uh that's probably the security flight with LA that might have ran up to 60, maybe I don't know, a little less. Those are out in the forest. Of course, we also had, you know, like fire department and uh those folks. There was other people that uh that uh seen this on night one. Right. And then of course, there was the civilian numbers that we found out later on, we didn't realize how many there were. We thought it was pretty uh isolated as far as uh anybody seeing it.

1:14:11 But uh we were wrong about that, too. Yeah, I would have thought that someone would have probably come out and recorded it and looked at it and taken film of it. Did any other people do you know touch it? No, I was the only one out there that made physical contact. Um I'm not It's a it's a it's a hard question for me because John received contact, too, but it wasn't I don't believe with a a physical object. It was he he was he was um engulfed in a beam of light out there. And he it also happened on the the the third night. I don't know why with him. Uh it's that's even more fascinating why it would even happen I mean, that's the unusual part of this. I mean, here you got a landing of uh craft of unknown origin, that's what I put in my report because I'm in the Air Force and that's what we do. We don't use those other words.

1:15:13 And then on the um what, two nights later, it's back. And uh the base commander, deputy base commander is going to put this to bed. He's going to debunk it. And his life changed, too. So, that's the way it that's the way it came down and the way it worked. And all we want is okay, incident happened, we just want to be taken care of, all right. And there's a lot of other veterans that were working that we also have access to about 240 of the other security policemen that were stationed at that uh uh twin bases there. And uh some of them have similar problems, too. Um and uh we would we like the you know, we're working for them, too, not just ourselves. So, Have you reconnected with some of the the people that were there that night? Right. Okay. And and I want you to know that uh the I want to add this in. I know this wasn't your question, ma'am, but I want you to know that the wing commander,

1:16:15 uh the base commander, those folks when we went in and gave them a sanitized version of what because we were instructed to give them a sanitized version from OSI. they were it was a they never asked one question, the the wing commander. It's like he knew everything was going on out there. And we found documents recently that that showed them why he did reacted that So, what what should have happened if there was any doubt on our credibility, or any doubt on our mental state, any doubt uh any activity at all. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Air Force Personnel Reliability Program, That's when each all of us had the responsibility to look at the other person they're working with and say, "Well, he's acting odd or something strange or some odd behavior." You're supposed to report it What should have happened if there was any suspicion at all that we were not uh

1:17:16 uh being completely honest or with the command element, they should have relieved us of duty for 30 days, had a medical evaluation, and then at 30-day mark, decide whether or not they're going to permanently decertify us under PRP or or or return us to duty. None of that happened. It's because we went out and reported what we seen. They believed everything we said. And then they reinforce it three nights later, Colonel Halt and his team go out. And uh when when when Colonel Halt called us in the office uh a few days later, like five days later, after the first night, I was so happy to hear him say that he had an experience out there and he's backing up what I was saying from the first night. I said, "Good, it's off my shoulders. I got a I got a you know, soon-to-be full colonel uh taking responsibility, saying, 'Okay, I'll take the fight from this point And he did, actually. Have you in trying to get help

1:18:21 through the military, have you has he collaborated what I mean, has he been there for you? Uh yes, the end result is what what's what we looked at and uh he has done up a that said that we were out there at the a certain time and what happened and we encountered the craft of unknown origin. He says all this in the letter or similar alludes to that. And he says that uh we were probably uh exposed to radiation and this letter he did for us to go to the VA. So, you know, we are being aggressive with it that way. I have no problem being aggressive. Uh Good. Yeah, I'm a You need to be aggressive and I know and I I have no problem doing that. Can I bring up a point? Can I bring up a point, ma'am? Yes, please. You told us to be aggressive. Where was our chain of command when it came for them to be aggressive? After the incident happened, we were brought in and interrogated. They did

1:19:23 nothing to stop that. They did nothing to step up and make sure that we were treated medically after the incident. Okay, the chain of command is clearly partly or at least partly being um prohibited in what they need to do because this incident has been And not only has it been classified, it's been classified and kept away from the the people that served this country, which is the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of And we're trying to do what we're trying to do, but at the same time, where are we going to go when people like Senator Kyl are prohibited from receiving records? That's right, sir. Yeah, I was going to say He's probably He should have responded. He I mean whole House member. Yeah. You have to I I I tell this to When I was in Congress, I told this to every person that came in that wanted anything

1:20:24 I wanted any help. Excuse me, I I yield the Congresswoman additional 2 minutes. All right. Uh you also have to be very persistent with that member that you're dealing with, uh whether it's a senator or a House member. You have to be persistent and say, "What have you found out? Is anything happening?" And talk to I mean if they've Most members have really great staff. Talk to the staff and you just have to be just pound on them that you need to have this information. but I so appreciate you telling us this story. It's I am embarrassed for our military that they don't come forward with the information so that you can get the kind of treatment that you need. So, thank you for First of all, for serving. And again, I hope that there will be people that will step forward. You have to

1:21:25 be consistent, be persistent, and hopefully you'll get the information you need. Thank you. Thank you. You bet. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Congresswoman. Uh Congressman Yes, you know, I want to say that uh for any open-minded uh Americans out there, no matter how uh this is very interesting stuff we're hearing today. Extremely interesting. And uh uh I'm surprised that not more Americans know about this Rendlesham Forest um I'd like to ask uh and I want to commend both sergeants for their service to our and apologize for the United States even though I'm not in any official capacity at the moment, for withholding important information. But let me start Sergeant Burroughs by you uh you enlisted in the Air Force when you

1:22:26 were you were in in the year 1979, I think you said. Yes, sir, 1979. Okay, and how old were you at the time? I would have been 18 years old. Okay, and you when you were made sergeant in the United States Air Force? I believe I was I was 22 or 23 when I received my E4 I can't remember exactly. Okay, so that would have been about 1980 two, '83? '82 or '83, if I recall correctly. Okay, after the Rendlesham Forest incident? Yes, sir. Okay. Nick Pope has indicated or no, excuse me, Mr. Francione, your attorney has indicated that uh the very first sighting was with Sergeant Steffens and yourself. Yes, sir. Uh Sergeant Steffens and I were on routine law enforcement patrol when we were down checking the east gate and we observed what was going on in the forest. Okay, and Sergeant Steffens went

1:23:26 to uh Sergeant Penniston. Am I right on that? And Well, what happened was after we called it in because he was the senior ranking individual, when Sergeant Penniston responded down to the gate, Sergeant Steffens briefed Sergeant Penniston on what was going on. Oh, I see. Okay. And uh and you went back after Sergeant Penniston wanted to investigate after what he'd heard, you accompanied him. Yes, a decision was made by the on-duty shift commander after consultation with the squadron commander that we would go out and investigate and Sergeant Penniston formed a team. And uh what happened to Sergeant Steffens that Uh Sergeant Steffens was visibly shaken by what he was seeing in the forest. And there was two reasons why he didn't go out there. Number one, if he would have went out there also, there would have been nobody Well, you needed somebody on patrol, not on patrol, but somebody in charge because he was a senior ranking security

1:24:27 and Sergeant Steffens senior ranking law enforcement, but also he really didn't want anything to do with it. Whatever he saw, what he what he was observing shook him up enough that he wanted to stay back and he did not want to go into the Do you know? We've had trouble tracking down some individuals, but I do believe he is still currently alive. Yeah. And particularly interested in um in this classified records system of the Veterans Affairs administration because uh I can tell you our staff during my tenure in the Congress spent a great deal of time with the Veterans Affairs administration and I have never heard of a classified within Veterans Affairs. Could you tell as much as you know in that short period of time here in about 1 minute, Yes, sir. what is a classified records sections and how many

1:25:29 classified records do you believe are in there after your uh experience in dealing with them? Okay, what was summarized not only in the letter from Senator Kyl's office, which says "Once your claim is being processed and it's determined that needed records are classified, the request for those records can be made." What the staffer told me was that the VA has a section that they maintain records for certain operations and didn't necessarily mean Rendlesham, but any type of military operations is classified. And it's up to the gaining command, Army, Air Force, or whatever, whether or not they will allow those records to be released to the VA so you can receive treatment. And she said she came across this recently in the past 2 or 3 years when she was same way was being stymied on certain cases involving PTSD and Agent Orange. And that she made this available to us and not only that, but the VA volunteered it again to her saying that they would not even let her know if my records were classified or

1:26:30 not until I filed a disability claim. Yeah, and this question, I'm no way uh excusing a classified records section, especially with regards to medical records. I can't understand that. When as you say very correctly, Sergeant Burroughs, you are the owner of those medical records under the law of the United States. Uh even uh military laws, as I understand it. And I'm not an expert on that, but that's the way I understand it. Uh but as you found out about classified records sections, it's not just for people that have said I mean, people that are in classified sections aren't just for members of the the veterans that have maybe uh made statements as you've made about things you've seen that relate to unidentified flying objects. Am I correct? And they talk about Agent Yes, that is correct, sir. She said she became aware of it because of her work through Senator, you know, with Senator

1:27:30 Kyl for veterans and their assistance. And she specifically said it was for PTSD and Agent Orange that they came across this. And she also told me that very few members of Congress were aware of this. I'd like to hear from Sergeant Penniston on this question. If those records were handed to you what do you think would be on those records? Again, these would be records from the period what, '80 December of 1980 to say '82 or '83 or whenever you had those medical evaluations while you were in the Air Force? Yeah, there would be a a paper trail of my um the increasing medical condition uh from the night of the incident uh and it it showed progressive uh issues. Uh and that's what it would show. the the opportunity that we would have this time is that we will actually say that we were

1:28:35 You believe that the records would absolutely show that you've been exposed to the radiation. Well, they uh Or the The conditions that were that I explained to the doctors at time, I think will verify that. But I think Colonel Halt has also done that by issuing that letter to the VA. Uh yeah. I think that's what Uh anything else that might be on those medical records with your heart condition that you've talked about uh There would be show up there? There would be showing treatment for vision problems, which were related to my heart, and an unknown he had an he had no he could not figure out why I was having the vision problems I would have. This It a full bird specialist down at Wilford Hall where he ended up sending me. And he did look at me at one point say, "Were you ever exposed to radiation?" And you had you were pretty young man. That's kind of unusual at that age especially. So you passed your exam physical exams to get in enlisted into the Air Force I take it. That's pretty young age to be having heart difficulties. But you do believe

1:29:37 those records would show that. I take your answer would yes. Yes, sir. The records would clearly establish I came in healthy and shortly after the incident I became ill. For either one of you what has been the CIA reaction to your FOIA requests? Do you want to hear from us or our attorney or the lawyer? if if you know or whoever can answer that the best. that question uh Frustrating is the first word that um and one I've already used in regard to But what was their reaction? I understand your There's was the typical what they term the Glomar from the Glomar Challenger incident response which is they can either confirm or deny whether they know anything basically. And is that all Do they Do they know something the CIA? I mean Well, they won't confirm or deny that. I mean I'm talking about your I'm I'm only I'm not talking about the incident. I'm talking about your the medical records here. Oh, well, now the request

1:30:38 were pound propounded to them included medical records or any and all records I really should say. So they they don't tell you what they they do or don't have in regards to anything. But and whether they actually have something or not who knows. I mean but I have to believe based also on the the boots that were on the ground that there were the people there. Okay, now what Do either of the sergeants have any other feeling about CIA and this? Not about the CIA but the State Department we can bring up. I'd love to hear what you think about the State Department's reaction. Again, not to the sightings or anything but to the medical records. Okay. This when the State Department was given a FOIA request they admitted to having records on file. The State Department has admitted which would make it an Which is more than the CIA has admitted Yes, but that would mean it was an international incident because Department of State was involved in a foreign country.

1:31:39 But what they did then was say that they belonged to United States Air Force and it was up to the Air Force to decide whether or not they would be released. The United States Air Force claims there's no records on file. Okay. And besides the two Arizona senators have been talked about McCain and Kyle I'd like to ask you about Senator James who's a member of the who was a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. I understand he said that he had spent more time looking into this particular than any other case and and his quote I think I've got this right since I've been a US Senator. Well, he said that additional information like a seven interagency is on file. He says that he feels there's been no cover-up. Now, why did he say that?

1:32:40 In your opinions or the opinion of the attorney or anybody else that Well, in in my opinion the Air Force after the incident broke the memo was released they contacted us and wanted us to have brief contact with the press admitting what what happened that was something happened out there they didn't want us to go into detail. And what with the MOD saying no defense significance and the Air Force saying there's no cover-up what they're basically saying is an incident took place and we're not lying that it took place. But what we're not available and willing to do is go into what's been classified and and what the final outcome was. Well, I'd have to say that if they admit that an incident's taken place without identifying what that incident Excuse me. Let me yield you additional two minutes on the record, please. Oh, I appreciate that Chair. It seems to me and I think I hope I'm a fair-minded person but I'd like to say any other fair-minded person

1:33:42 that if they've admitted that an incident has taken place we don't have to get them to admit maybe your interpretation of what you saw or what you They don't have to admit what you saw. But they sure have to admit that there's no reason to hold your medical records and this is very disturbing to me because the only what could possibly be reason to withhold from the person whose medical record it a medical res- record if they've confirmed the incident which they have. Would you That's why I'm not necessarily agreeing with Senator Exon here and say I I I don't see how this can be unless a cover-up has taken place. And I don't mean to be throwing statements out here. But you cannot admit that there was an incident. I just like to clarify this

1:34:44 point once more because I want to be careful the way I'm saying it. And then insist on classifying a medical record related to that incident. It doesn't matter what the incident absolutely is or was and we don't even have to talk about whether it was a UFO whether it was as you say Sergeant Peniston you're not totally a believer in ET but you believe that you definitely an unidentified maneuvering that is solid evidence then and I'm not saying exactly what you saw is right But I'm saying that is evidence that's indisputable as far as being a cover-up. Excuse me. Thank you. Yield back Congressman. Thank you. I've got I have a request from one of our members who would like a second shot at this and we'd like to give him the time allotted. Congressman Thank you very much.

1:35:44 I have a question about the radiation. I understand that the the next day or so they went in and found uh uh radiation. Uh if you irradiate food to preserve it if you then take the food away from the radiation source there is no radiation coming from the food. Uh if there was radiation found at that site the next day or so something was left there from which the radiation was Radiation's like light beams it's gone when you pull the source away the radiation is gone. What was left there? Nick go ahead you want to Um yes, the um Colonel Holt investigated the landing site from the first night shortly before he had his own encounter and the disaster preparedness officer Sergeant Monroe Nevells noticed that not only were there indentations in the ground where this thing had apparently landed uh three

1:36:45 indentations forming essentially a triangular shape. But the inside this was in a clearing the insides of the trees seemed to him to have been scorched. Um and and burned somewhat. And again the the document the February 23rd Ministry of Defense document that that you have is from the scientific and technical intelligence part of the Defense Intelligence Staff. Uh I'm not a scientist myself so I can't speak to the technicalities of it but clearly a number of people who looked at the landing site after Jim and John's certainly got close to all this. And then this is again one of the reasons why this is of some concern. A number of these people have gone on the record but a number have not and may not even be aware that that there are potential health health care issues arising from the the But am I not correct that

1:37:46 radiation was coming from the site something was left there from which the radiation was coming. Radiation's like a light beam. If you take the source away uh source of light away there isn't any light. Take the source of radiation away there isn't any radiation unless you leave something there that is irradiating. What was left there? Indentations in the I I don't know, sir. Okay, I'd be very curious what was left there that that was radiating. Uh You said that the trees were scorched but you when you took off there was no There was no there was no backwash. And why would there be indentations in the soil because you saw it hovering. It wasn't even touching the soil. Well, that's that's the way it appeared the hovering but the only thing that was emanating out of it was light and unless the light caused indentations I don't know. It's beyond my you know, I can guess on it but But what one last

1:38:46 we have things so difficult to deal with that we don't deal with them. They're locked away in our mind and they're accessible only through hypnosis. Mhm. You said that when you came out of the hypnotic state that the hypnotist seemed distressed distressed whatever word. Yeah. That's uh yes, she was. She was She was distressed. write a report that is available? What did you tell her under hypnosis that made her respond that way? Well, I went into the instant, the problem that she was having and it would created a second uh was uh when I got to the landing site, I would jump to OSI. I'd be in the OSI room. And she says she's read about this. She says, "But I'm not sure she's I'm what I'm thinking that it is." She says, "I think you your memory's been And she says, "Now, why would they do that?" I says, "I I don't know." Did both of you fell down when there was a light from this? Does it understand

1:39:47 that? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Do you have any idea how long you were on the ground before you got up? Seconds. But that's what you When I go under anesthetic, I 5 hours and it doesn't seem like I any time has elapsed. How do you know it was seconds? Well, there is a time distortion. I mean uh that uh you can get with the adrenaline and things like that. It can you know, more time can go by than actually that you realize. I I understand that. Uh the craft was on the ground uh 45 I mean, it's not like it was Uh the reason we we know exactly the minutes on that by the way is uh after we got back in, our watches were all 45 minutes off. Oh gosh. Your watches were 45 minutes off, so maybe you were unconscious for 45 minutes. I wasn't unconscious. I mean, I I remember But sir, if you become unconscious and become conscious again, you may have no sense of that.

1:40:48 I can put a hood over your head and and you will breathe nitrogen and you will become unconscious and if I then give you oxygen, you'll be conscious and you will have no knowledge that you were To your knowledge, you were not unconscious. That doesn't mean that you weren't unconscious. time I've been given anesthetic, I know I was under anesthetic. There's some little trauma going under anesthesia, but in this case there wasn't any. One interesting note was the shift commander confirmed they lost radio contact with us for over 45 minutes. Right. Okay, but I'm very curious what that 45 minutes was. Maybe you were unconscious for 45 minutes. I have no idea. Yeah. It's possible. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. You're very welcome. Uh we're nearing our break, but I am going to allow Senator Gravel to have 2 minutes to comment to you and then we'll have a break. You made a statement that there was another uh military personnel uh of female personnel who drove up and her car or her vehicle was shut off not by her and uh how did she get out and

1:41:51 uh did she suffer any uh disabilities as a result of this? Two things that stand out with that. Now, at one point her vehicle was shut down. She was relieved of duty. And in fact, she should have been the on-duty shift commander on the night of Colonel Halt's incident and she wasn't present. Um at our level, we would not have been briefed on what what treatment she received or you know, what the final outcome was. But not only was her vehicle shut down, but on the third night, the light offs and radios were malfunctioning. They couldn't even get the lights to come on out in the fields. Which clearly points towards there was some kind of electrical interference. And this has been reported. Mr. Pope, is this part of the record that there was general shutdown of electrical service or energy service during this period of time? I I can't recall so whether the documents say that, but Colonel Halt and a number of the other people, but but particularly Halt because he was um the deputy base

1:42:52 commander, has gone on the record and confirmed that. Yes, sir. Good. Thank you, Madam Chairman. You're very welcome. We now come to a 15-minute break time. Our witnesses will rejoin us and I'm getting another note. Okay, that's Congressman That's okay. This will allow Congressman Cook to ask for additional minute. Well, even just 30 seconds. Um I wanted to I meant to ask you this earlier, Sergeant Burrows. Um You indicated you you were promoted to sergeant after this incident had Can you give us some indication of maybe the year or two after the incident occurred uh thing you said that clearly they weren't denying you of being a member of the Air Force at that So, I'm trying to just understand did you kind of Well, were you being politically correct for a year or two and then it What I'm trying to understand is the

1:43:53 time scale on when they started saying that you weren't even a member of the Air Force. That Yes, sir. That that just came up on our inquiries that are going on now that when my when I did get a little bit of my records released, there was no DD Form 214 in there. And also the fact that the uh doctor that was interviewing me that day said there was no record. Now, that doesn't mean that technically the Air Force is saying that I wasn't in. What they're trying to do is show that whatever part of the incident took place is classified and my records are in those files. And one other interesting note I want to bring up to you and a few years after the incident, I went down to Maxwell Air Force Base. Wow. And I went into the you know how they keep the history of the wings in in the base. I went and requested the history of the wing uh the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing in 1980. When they gave me the files, December of 1980 was missing. It was pulled and was classified. And so maybe that's why you were

1:44:55 Well, I don't know. I'm not making a statement here. I just wanted to get it out in the open. announcements from Mr. Pope when before we go in recess and we will be back in 15 minutes and the same witnesses will we'll see you at that time.