Apollo 14 crew debriefing: the light-flash questions, 1971 (NASA audio, NASA-UAP-D026)

0:00 you're coming through loud and clear okay i guess we got three mics one for you mics that we need good morning charles hello how are you fine how are you fine good you're fine good yeah we tried to go through this uh you know your debrief last night the uh printed one you know this all the stuff that you guys did on on tape your tech debris to get those so that we try and not repeat you know only amplify stuff and so we've tried to come up yeah much time to do that but i hope we got most of that stuff and

1:01 okay if you if you think we're hitting some area that you think you know is a conflict with that well yell tell us all righty change around and some of the things now there were some things that you guys said yesterday you know when i was in the project keep reading that probably uh bear on some of these too good morning good morning yeah it's cold in here come on yeah come on bill all right hey craig

2:05 will you use those mics i don't know i'm on the floor before we uh you know start asking questions um yeah i don't need it we don't have any we don't have any

3:09 that's some stuff i'd like but i saw a picture today is a lot better than the one they had yesterday yeah i heard what you did okay uh questions and answers yeah

4:12 i guess we oughta for the tape identify this dr barry and for the medical debriefing and i'll try and uh ask most of the questions if people have some here we'll try and hand them in that way if they're not will you identify yourself and i think they can identify you guys voices pretty well i don't know already on the tape so there shouldn't be any problem with the tape thing chuck i think we'll have to pick up those mics they're not loud enough it's a little down yeah mr birdhart where is he i'll take care of it probably outside i guess can can you get them to turn them up some well we can yell for a while here if it'll help and then we can get them to turn them up some you just speak up loud one two three four five five four three two one is that where it's coming from there i'll pray we'll get somebody

5:13 try again one two three four five five four three two one test out somebody better spray down well it's not coming in there though they're not getting it in there we can hear them great but they're not hearing us very well we're hearing both of you real fine back there they want that mic turned yes inside inside the speaker not the mic they did i set it on the minimum setting in here instead of the max the max seems to be then and vice versa oh really hey that's a lot better it's labeled raw they're just screwed up and that's too much yeah yeah we can we can hear you loud and clear now it's great okay good show

6:13 okay i'm going to start a little bit uh out of out of order here but one of the things that sort of pervades it all is medical requirements and in this section 27 you had some comments about the medical requirements and i thought we ought to we ought to just get one one question with you we in explaining the medical requirements we have one opportunity to do that with uh with deke of course at the time that we're trying to get the document the medical requirements document published the second the only opportunity we really get to go over that with you was at the the 30-day debrief 30-day briefing uh prior to the flight now did you guys feel that you had an understanding of what the requirements were because when i read this it sounds like you did not is that true i think we were i read the forms chuck and uh understood in general what what you were after at least the the number of sessions we

7:16 had i think it's a question of degree yeah okay well one of the things we tried is a very valid thing like like uh al's comments about uh you know you should substantiate the requirements no question about that they should be clear they should be clear to you in the sense that you want to know that what you are doing is is worthwhile and the stuff is used and it isn't it isn't wasted somewhere down the line somebody isn't just doing it for fun yeah and we try uh that's something we try to iron out pretty hard in our own house and one of the things i'd like to do is if we run if you guys end up at the sometime before the end of the quarantine period here and have some time we ought to have that data together by then and then prior to the time that that uh we end up getting you out if you've got a an hour sometime we might be able to go over with you and and show you here's here's what we saw with you and with the lab data and the whole bit and say because you know it's

8:17 very hard to get back together again after you get out of here to do that sort of thing everybody says they'd like to know what happened to them we could do that to you in here and tell you that uh and here are the samples that were used to do that so you have some idea or understanding about how that happened would that be worthwhile to you yeah the comment was made not from a point of view a specific complaint about our flight but just uh i think a continuing understanding between the two uh directorates we agree ahead of time because it's it's the kind of thing well just like with other scientific experiments unless the crew understands the reasons and agrees with it you know the thing is going to be a successful experiment amen so it wasn't coming wasn't made from a point of uh criticizing anything specifically about our protocol at all just to reiterate what everybody ought to know but doesn't always think about yeah good and i think chuck also probably the last few weeks before flight is not the time to try to brief the crew on the

9:21 medical requirements at that time their thoughts are quite a bit on other things and perhaps it needs to come earlier than that uh that's a good that's a good point uh i think each one of us is concerned with ourselves medically or the medical effects the physiology of flight etc etc but the last few weeks you just can't get yourself cranked up to really think about those things except for the things that are going to happen to you so you can be mentally prepared for it right i think i may have precipitated that comment at least when we got that area and started that about and and i guess it really wasn't a complaint chuck as much as just a statement that it's a drag you know going through uh collecting urine for 24 hours and so forth and and and you know uh i just wanted to toss it in that you sure hope that it's worthwhile and and i think it would be interesting to sit down and see how you what you're really doing with

10:22 all that good i i think that's really needed because uh we're trying to do that right now with uh skyline crews to tell you what we really know about what happens to man what we know from the russian side of the thing as to what's happened on even their longer one put the thing together and say here's what here's what we don't know and why why we need to know it well i think i think we understood uh or i understood your your need to work out the total body water but the actual mechanics of how that fit into a 24-hour urine collection six times and all the blood drawing and how that all fit into the picture the theoretical picture you're right painting for us i never understood that okay fair enough you know i think everybody understands all these things why don't uh why don't we make a specific recommendation at this point now you know all the flight crews have a training plan which is set up about the time that the flight crews are designated it includes all kinds of things on the simulators and scientific

11:22 briefings and everything else and why is why wouldn't the best way to do it but actually to schedule the time for medical briefings early in the training program because i think if you all uh conversely if you all feel that an experiment's worthwhile doing you want to get your protocol settled early in the game so you have all the equipment or whatever you need amen ready uh right will be a satisfactory test so i would suggest that maybe sometime something be scheduled in the in the crew training program early in the game yeah and i should think it becomes one of those things you've got to check off like systems briefings and everything else and i should think that briefing should consist of a bit of the theoretical thing you're trying to do right followed by the mechanics and the protocol what that means to you yeah that's right the mechanics of how you go about doing it the number of punctures and where you're going to do it and how many

12:23 urine samples and sort of thing great just so the guys understand great okay will do thank that's great uh i'd like to go back and pick up one then on on the uh exercise uh area you you mentioned this in the debrief and you mentioned it again in the uh yesterday but can you give me some idea now you said you missed uh as i remember the the debriefing statements here you comment that you missed one day on the way out and one day on the way back and can you can you say what you did in time uh what what the exercise consisted of what you did roughly in time i know you won't know it a minute or a second or anything but as roughly as you can and then uh what if you have any idea did you try and judge what you did as far as did you try and get a heart rate increase or did you try and judge your your exercise level in any way and this is particularly important for us in trying to separate out the effects that are different

13:24 between the two of you are on the surface versus stew who was in the in the spacecraft all the time so we want to keep that we want to get that straight if we can could you just sort of greet the exercises for the way you did it maybe each of you have to do it because you probably did it differently but what we were shooting for was about a 10 minute period per day exclusive of the two days of lunar service activity for the two of us and uh stew was going to try to get the about 10 minute period per day for including those days the method of exercise during the 10 minute period was to use this extra gym device which we have and to operate that in such a fashion that the old what they call the big four where you start out with with your legs and feet in two loops and your hands controlling the friction device from a crouch position to a full stretch out and do that several

14:27 times then hold the the fixed loops and use the legs on the movable loops and then hold a fixed loop with the toes and use the biceps on movable loops that's the general pattern that we tried to follow but we didn't make all those time periods we missed the first day out because of uh well we didn't have it scheduled the first day out well it was in the flight plan but we hadn't i don't think anybody's going to exercise the first day anyway uh in yeah in fact it should never have been in the flight plan to exercise the first day pretty hard to get that in in that first day well you have a problem with the docking probe so that puts behind you don't really need it in that first day anyway pardon you don't really need it in that first day well uh in retrospect i think that it would probably have alleviated some of the sore back muscles that first day but go ahead and done it in my case yeah it was kind of like uh one

15:29 of those things where they said okay you want to exercise and put it in the flight plan i said yeah we got to have the flight plan we won't do it we're going to put it i said put it in before lunch every day before the mid meal every day that's how i got in there okay did you said extra gym or is it is it the extra genie or gym extra gym is a trade name yeah they're both similar devices it's the same thing it's the friction one yeah okay yeah okay and and so 10 minutes a day is what you had programmed for the thing and did you have any you have any did you feel that you really got a got a fair amount did you get up any increase in breeding rate or heart rate that you were aware of when you did it yeah we didn't do it quantitatively but somebody uh yeah i always tried to stop uh short of uh cracking a sweat it's just not desirable to get all sweaty in the spacecraft and i felt like i was pulling it somewhere around 10 to 15 minutes i could feel the heart rate going up and the breathing going up but i would never

16:30 do it to the point of a sweat and it's not a vigorous exercise it's more of a it's a tension exercise right i put put enough load on it to where it was a a hard pull but a slow pull okay okay stew did yours go about that same way then for the whole time even when you were alive i'd like to just summarize exercise uh in my case uh i uh i probably didn't exercise as much in retrospect as i would have if i were doing it again uh for various and sundry reasons uh one is you know you you don't feel a need for the exercise you just got to say well i'm gonna i'm gonna go do this and uh there were a couple of times that we got out the uh you know it says exercise period so we got out the exerciser and alan added have at it and i'd be doing something or i'd say well i'll put it over here and i'll get to it in a minute and then uh i know on

17:32 one occasion uh several hours later i finally got around to getting that to getting it and uh and doing some exercise on it the uh i'd say probably five to ten minutes was the length of time uh i uh i would strain pretty hard i didn't work up a sweat but you know you use this thing you can use it about any way you want you can drag them through the ropes or it's really designed to where you hold and do an isometric first and then go right from the isometric into the isotonic and and you get the whole whole smear so i'd hold uh hold pressure on the thing and strain against it and you know you can strain as little or as hard as you want but i'd strain reasonably hard and and then relax the tension and and pull it up uh but i'm trying to think i'm sure that i missed uh one exercise period on the way out completely that al and ed got in i did

18:33 no exercise at all the lunar orbit uh the thinking of the uh extra gym was uh never even crossed my mind for those two days and then in preparation for uh for entry i said boy i'm really going to hit that on the way home as it turned out i barely got in the one the one exercise a day uh that that we did on the way home so i would say overall uh i probably or i'm sure i didn't uh hit the extra gym as much as i probably should have okay i don't know how uh from my point of view at least how you in a case like this where you're trying to correlate the relationship of the exercise that dad and i did for example and its benefits or lack thereof with respect to the the uh lunar surface period which was over 30 hours

19:34 i just think the workload the basic workload there alone is enough different to put that exercise thing down at the noise level that's competition down the noise level as far as the two of us i think that's probably very right now i and i think that thing we want to know is you know was stew trying to make up for it in some way with exercise in the spacecraft because he obviously i mean there's no way he could make up for what you were doing on the lunar surface he's trying to but he had a real busy flight plan yeah yeah i don't think he could do it and this this is what i wanted to find out was he was he trying to do a lot more or something during that time so no i uh i wasn't i i think that'd be a difficult thing to try to do really i i don't know you're going to uh maybe with the longer period and in lunar orbit uh cmp may not be quite as busy uh or maybe i suspect he probably will be i think it's going to be difficult to uh to get in much exercise there but uh no i wasn't right yeah

20:37 so it's obvious that stew's stew's greater interest were in running the spacecraft and for example the b-23s took a lot of time that was the kind of this is the kind of thing i'm talking about but you but if you're going to get the individuals to uh try to exercise and respond to exercise then you're going to have to get through really explain the benefits or the crew as a result of that right because it really is an individual thing that's right and we haven't tried to set any numbers of times that you do anything or anything like that and so i think we need to really carefully look at look at that as an area okay uh ed while i add one that came up yesterday when you guys were talking about uh myrtle reminded me of the and the problems that you had in flight with the the urine kinking of the urine hose and so forth uh how much time did you make a conscious effort uh in in your own particular case because this is important trying to chase down your status post-flight here of of the time that

21:37 you had the insuit urine device on did did you have it me well yeah it wasn't my hose it was kinked you know right right it was al's yeah i gather twice al's was that right apparently all the time all the time we uh oh yeah we had it on i guess we have to look back on the transcript or look back over the flight plan to nova and we took it off the first time we all unsued it at the same time which was about uh six six six hours seven hours into the flight all right somewhere in there and uh we put the uctas on pdi morning and we took them off only when we got back to the spacecraft after docking and it was off for those two periods only and i never experienced any discomfort i never had any problems whatsoever that was done we discussed pre-flight no symptoms no of

22:38 any sort great well it looks like you know we haven't had any and you did well how did you feel uh that's a another one we might just get out of the way on fluid intake it sounds like you all thought the water was great and so you were you were drinking well uh did did you were you trying to force fluids were you trying to consciously force food yeah i think uh in my case anyhow i tried to drink take a drink out of the water gun about every time i went by it i did find that i preferred the juices to water and surprisingly enough as much as i did not care for the juices pre-flight particularly i didn't crave them or anything uh we were drinking a couple of juices per meal a large portion of the time i was and in addition uh taking the shots from the water gun about every time i'd go by it i i forced myself to drink the water uh not that it tasted bad or anything but just

23:42 just to keep the fluid intake up and so i would i would drink water uh you know like it says every time you pass the water again you say well i think i'll try some of that and one person would take a drink of water and pass it around and would put it back up did uh as i understand though you you stayed in the deep arena you you thought you drank about half so many juices as they did because i'd say that's probably a good average uh they they no i'd say probably say a third less a third glass yeah in juices yeah you drank two juices so yeah i drank two occasionally toward the toward the end i was i was drinking two more than uh i was because a lot of times you'd drink a cocoa and a juice and i'd bypass the cocoa and i just drink a juice so i'd say probably and this is a wag but i'd say a third less juice than they did well i think i kind of decided i was going to try to do everything i could to uh end up

24:46 in as good shape as i could at the end of the mission which included uh keeping the fluid intake and the food intake up as well as the exercise and uh that's generally what we tried to do you did a great job of we had to try to get two juices per per meal most of the time okay there was a uh question everybody did uh for you particularly did you eat more do you feel while you were while they were with you alan ed were with you in the spacecraft and when you were alone eat and drink better i saw in your food thing well i'd say uh excuse me go ahead i saw in your food uh comments here that that you you had difficulty you know the food preparation thing you'd have preferred if you'd have had some like some canned things you could have opened quickly and gotten to when you were alone that way and i can surely understand that i think it's something we want to look at but well that's the way i did eat yeah uh as because we had them there i guess it didn't

25:46 come out right because that's the way i did eat lunar order i would say uh i'd say the answer to your question would be yes uh that that i ate more when when they were in there but the idea of people being together is is nothing in that it's a time factor yeah uh during the coast during the coast phase you have more uh you have more time to you know to worry about eating uh during that lunar orbit phase i didn't have any time at all and uh to you know any extra time and particularly with the troubleshooting the high con and so forth so i didn't have the inclination or want to go to the trouble of trying to mix up a meal as such and i didn't much like that the going to all that trouble anyway so i opened up you know can of that chicken salad i think it was and i had that for breakfast and uh in a wet pack and you

26:50 know that's the type food that you can really get to in a hurry and eat right so i wouldn't say overall that that probably ended up eating too much less but it was a little different rather than sitting down and mixing up a rehydratable pack and so forth so the total amount you don't think was any different because you're there but it was just different kinds of food then it may have been a little less but uh do you do you personally feel now you know the weight loss is involved here you know yours you know that they uh you got one pound each here and you got a 10 pound one and i heard your comment about the scale yesterday too but uh with do you have any personal reason why you think there's that much difference and the weight loss i mean is there anything that you know that you personally tried to account for it other than the than uh food intake water intake or anything of that sort no i just i'm not sure that there's anything magic about uh

27:51 about the zero g or the flag i would suspect i'd probably lost several pounds if i'd uh eaten that same uh same menu and sat right here uh i uh i probably think uh that i was uh certain pounds overweight when i went into the flight uh as a matter of fact you know i'm not a big eater and uh during most of my uh during most of the time you come up on training uh i drink a can of sego and a can of v8 juice for breakfast and then i'd eat a sandwich for lunch and uh you know maybe drink uh two or three cans of beer and eat a sandwich in the evening and you know yeah you know you know i can go for days on a menu like that and i don't know how many calories all that adds up to but uh you know it's it's it's not a really a a high calorie uh uh diet

28:53 and i would say that that pretty much was my diet for three months prior to going into quarantine was just about what i uh what i stated there and then when we got into quarantine well then i started eating eating more for breakfast and needing a bigger meal in the evening and uh so i think i probably uh was three or four pounds heavy going in going into the flight and uh so i uh i think the weight loss may be overplayed a little bit because i think i uh had a few extra pounds and then plus i don't think that uh maybe we picked the right uh the right weight up on the on the rolling scales but uh that's neither here nor there you know well we can probably show you something about that from when we get your lab material pulled together i think we'd be able to give you a better handle on that as to whether you know it really was something that had to do with the zero g state or not we hope we'll be able to

29:53 do that so we'll try well if i could just add a general comment which i think reflects the consensus of the three of us that that with respect to the food in general the type of food the method by which it was packaged and so on and uh and the degree to which we like to dislike it was primarily a function of the uh level of activity in the flight plan that the business of going into the pantry and taking time to select foods and drinks and so on is fine during the quiet periods of coast that things like uh like spoon spoon packages are good if the level of activity is not too high but certainly if the level of activity is high the wet packs and the cans and that's about all you want to take time to fool with i think this is a general comment that really reflects our consensus it was a time consuming part of the day to prepare meals uh get them all get them out of the the food box get them all laid out cut all the tops off of them get all the water into them

30:54 get a massage and go about to get the pill back in there when you're through you know it's an effort you're right and uh you know it's a lot easier to open up a can and a wet pack and then uh then you then you think it's a lot of trouble to mix up the juice but you know that and that way you got your meal and you're through and you're on your way right okay the cooking problem quotes is a is still a problem which has been fairly fairly common i guess that's right yeah i think i think if you've got plenty of time you don't mind spending an hour so matter of fact it's a very pleasant hour yeah it gets rid of that time very effectively but but i would say in my case that watching these guys eat you know they they went right down the menu and uh so i thought uh you know i uh i really i really should do that but uh i just didn't have an inclination to eat that much i'd uh you know even though you know in your own mind you know hey you got to do this you know and you got to keep yourself you know eat just as much as you possibly can i just

31:56 couldn't get around to doing it in fact several times i'd mix the food up and then by the time i'd eat a couple of packages you know i just couldn't get to the to the third package and so i'd put it back in the pantry well stew one of the things that's going to come out of that is somebody you know reading the the the uh debriefing itself the obvious question comes up okay was your loss of it your lack of appetite itself was it just plain lack of appetite or did you really have any any discomfort in your as far as the gut was concerned at all anything that that you felt was pathological in your loss of appetite due to the environment or anything no no i don't think there's anything that i could say i think it it boils down to a lot of just too much food you know if you bundle up one of those meals and uh there's just too much there to eat were any of you ever thirsty in flight you were dry yeah you were dry uh quite a bit you know you'd have a sensation of dryness

33:00 and you'd want and water you know juice would make you want someone yeah did you while we're at it we might just wipe out the water did you guys drink the water in your suits eva i did i drank all of his i just drank about a third on the first one i don't know how much of mine i drank i thought i emptied the bag but apparently uh the walls of the bag got around the drink tube and i didn't get it all out because it drained down around my neck during the sleep period okay okay did you fill them up again then when you went out second and you drank about you think you drank about a third of yours both times yeah i didn't really stop and drink yeah and i drank on mine the second eva uh and i can't remember whether i drank it all or not if i didn't there may be some still in it okay all right hey one other comment on while

34:00 we're on there eating before i forget it uh we ran completely out of these uh bite-sized uh packages you know and to me that was the best the best thing we had you these little you know turkey sandwiches cheese sandwiches and uh and that sort of thing because that was a no sweat operation you just clip that off in a can of juice and you could go at it so i really liked those and uh i eat all those generally that i could get my hands on and uh we ran out of those well we ran out of almost everything else just about no not really i had all kinds of food uh if i may make a comment uh student of mine about about his uh eating and drinking habits uh this flight plan is really something that he worked on developed before the flight it's it's a busy flight plan it's a full one and it was my impression that he was more interested in being sure that the flight plan was done properly than uh than eating oh yeah

35:02 i think that affected it to a great degree which again gets back the level of activity versus the if you guys can get a little for example those drink bags get a little diaphragm on the end just stick over a needle and pump the water in that way and shake it up pull the plug out and break it out the same deal that would be a lot easier for those drinks i mean for the for the juices and things you mean all cutting yeah so that you don't so you don't end up having to sort of feel you got to drink the whole damn thing once you get it done you see you got a drink packet you got a little narrow thing that's all sucked in the plastic is all pulled down right exactly right first of all you can't get out of the nozzle without having a leak and you get it all done then you got to go cut the other end and i was just thinking maybe it might be an easier way to put a diaphragm fitting on there that will you can stick over a hypodermic type thing and get the water in that way might be a little bit quicker way to do it okay anything you do to make it easier is going to help increase the consumption right particularly during busy time periods

36:02 okay but uh could we get you uh this is going to involve just really uh alan and ed we we'd like to have you describe as well as as you can the things that you did with your uh with your bio instrumentation harnesses when because it's very hard for us to be sure exactly what happened we don't have that stuff back yet we're going to set up we've got to develop a plan to troubleshoot it and as i under the thing that happened with yours out just from our actions not the words huh party you want the actions not the the actions not the words yeah okay well you said in some of the words too but what from our point of view what happened with your particular uh harnesses everything was fine when everybody left the the the msov okay we got when you got into the spacecraft right after you got apparently when you were getting cinched down somehow because we had about three minutes or so after you were in the in

37:04 the couch of good data on you then we began to get erratic data it began to wander the baseline began to wander all over the place uh that continued to get worse and worse and pretty soon it was going just full scale which was totally unreadable so the question was okay had it was a question about hatch closure at that point in time we uh decided right right then i said well hell we're going to go we're going to go without that because i'm sure it's a sensor and the only way to get at it anyway if you we asked you then to try and press on those things if that wouldn't do it if that wouldn't recede it uh then the first opportunity would be when we got you actually in flight now we don't know why but it came back it was gone still when you went over australia as you came back up on the states magically there we had data and we went back to the msob from the firing room to catch that pass and there you were a wet

38:05 that was beautiful just as if nothing had ever happened and you hadn't done a damn thing because then we asked them you know had you done anything now uh as we understand when you looked at that sensor then that you did have some material had leaked out from under underneath it and you and we understand that you replaced that so you cleaned up and replaced that sensor is that right we didn't replace the sensor no okay just cleaned it off refilled it put a new sticky back on it and put it back on yeah okay that was the second day into the flight yeah yeah right yeah that was the first time that we really and that we asked you to do that then because we thought we'd get it out of the way before you got into the okay and then you had another i also changed the adapter the cwg adapter because that one time on the flight they said my comm wasn't very good yeah your comm was terrible right yeah spare adapter and uh so it changed that exactly when that was i don't know but that was pretty early too i think it was the first day right yeah i think it was the first day yeah

39:05 i think it was the first day al that was the lord that wasn't anything to do with the launch problem because of course no no and we had it we had a uh respiration on you you can see respiration but we didn't have the that's good yeah yeah but we didn't have dcg that's right good yeah can you correlate the reappearance of your ekg signal with any flight plan activity that you might have been doing it i sure can i'm just as mystified about that you or i tried to press it through the soup or anything you know you can't feel anything through the soup well you were free then though you had your helmet gloves off it was one hour and 30 minutes gtm i don't know if that rings any bells to you how was the gloves are off at that time we're moving around with the post-insertion checklist there's some movement in the couch right diamond and get some things and pull helmets still that sort of stuff it's probably it's just got to be that you were probably just it was in the cinching down in the in the couch that it probably loosened that edge of that sensor somehow a

40:05 little bit and i don't know why or put a crimp in a lead or yeah brought it to contact with something else yeah because it sure came back fine after that okay then the second time what what else did you have with with yours al from your point what else did you do to the thing that i noticed was about the next to the last day that the thread coupling between the sensor line sensor harness and the belt the little transistor in the belt on top of the signal conditioner yeah it stripped the threads i could get it to hold a little bit and apparently the signal was fine then it would slip off it came back beautifully when you tell you but then when i unsuited it at the end i noticed that was loose so the threads apparently stripped on it probably got cranked down too hard did uh excuse me did you routinely uh disconnect that connector at the signal conditioner for sleep or for

41:07 bowel movements not for sleep for bowel movements and for swabbing down and cleaning out process anytime anytime you pulled your clothes off to either change clothes or put on the lcg or use the blue bags whatever we all wanted those okay okay and then uh you didn't replace anything you didn't do it have to receipt any sensor after that that was the only other thing you had was the signal because every time i took the sensor off was that first that call was correct because when we took it off you could see the secret to the electrolyte right same okay how about yours then the only thing i replaced was that one sensor which one and it was uh the same the whole sensor i don't mean replace the sensor we pulled it off cleaned it out refilled it with electrolyte put it back on it was the same just the same came out okay you did not take the harness

42:07 out of the kit and replace the whole okay because that's a we thought you had done that and you called and asked that but there wasn't time to do it so we took glad you couldn't hear what we said when you guys said that we took the chance that the real problem was simply the sensor and the electrolyte and that's what it was that's exactly what we couldn't have picked the worst time from the standpoint timeline is that right we're just getting ready to go into the lamp you know that boy everybody's all asses and elbows and suits and underwear and gear and books and everything all over the place and i i was sitting there hand dressed i didn't want to go any further until we got a go on it we couldn't get the high bid rate up for you guys to look at right and so there just wasn't any time left so we changed that when i went ahead and dressed hey ed you know when you came up there though the the uh the data you gave us about two minutes uh when the high gain did lock on and we got two minutes of data and it did still showed the uh the loose sensor now what did you what did you do the second time uh did you uh you came up ask us how the data looked and we said it looked

43:09 poor yet and we gave you no more of the suiting to change out the harness i don't recall exactly the sequence of events uh when when i called and asked for you to check it as far as i know we did nothing after that except make sure everything was cinched down and went ahead and dressed didn't you do something with the with the fluid in there yeah but i had already done it at that point we did the i changed the electrolyte when i called and asked you guys to check it uh i did nothing after that except just make sure everything was secure yeah because you see the first time you called the data was poor and that was the basis for the call of change out the whole harness because we said well it wasn't that sensor and we didn't have time to talk to you because los was coming up so we said go ahead and change out the whole thing but whatever you did they subsequently corrected it because it came back beautifully so we assumed you would just change out the whole range let's bring a little holy water on it yeah yeah

44:12 so you know that you mentioned it you know i just can't remember precisely when we changed it but i'm but i'm thinking that it was already changed at that point okay and it uh ed was this the lower sternal it was a lower sternal same as the same as al same as al they changed it was electrolyte that was replaced yeah yeah taking it off by changes taking it off and cleaning it putting it back just sticking it back okay and and you think you did that before los yeah he probably did what we're thinking now happened probably took a while for it to see properly and when he came around it was good good well his state stayed good then and then we were having trouble with yours going and you began to get this wandering baseline on yours again before the you know after we got into the land so there was a question in our minds about it is there any way we could do to to to get that better you know to make that better we were trying to find trying to figure some way could you reach

45:13 around when you were in the suit is there any way you could get at that thing if you took like after the eva if you ended up taking the helmet off uh could you get down into the end of the suit here you really have to have the upper torso garment the upper part of the torso garment clear of the body in order to be able to feel that in order you know what you can definitely tell you know the other guy goes through the back zipping around in front then we tried that on the ground to see if you can do that and that's pretty hard to do we found out the most you can do is press after all that time of quarantine that's pretty dangerous too yeah yeah depends on where his hands is okay all right forget the eva just keep pulling with my sensor you've got two hours to stop that okay did the thing we got from the sleep and i uh

46:14 which i think is fairly well covered if you have anything to add to that well we would like you to but what we got out of it is that all of you pretty well never really had a a solid long sleep period that it was broken and it was things like a couple of hours at a time or something and i gather that the the reasons for that varied you had uh some difficulty with with the uh wanting wanting to feel some pressure in ed's case i know and this al mentioned this too and and uh stew didn't like the couch and and then you ended up uh in the limb the the thing was being in the suits all the time and then the tilt of the limb too both those things probably had a lot to do with sleep activity is there anything else that you can that you think you can add did you feel that you that you were rested enough to do the task even with the sleep that you had yeah but i think we're working on reserves yeah i did too well there were two days that we felt sloppy one was the second day out after the after the excitement of the

47:16 launch and all that activity and being coming and becoming acclimated to the new environment so we felt like we weren't really working on the second day out and the day after tei although we all apparently slept better after tei that night i guess was probably the terms of continuous sleep was probably the best time still the next day we felt like we were not really organized we got things done but the little things were not being handled as neatly as we would like to see them so these are the only two days we felt that we were on top of the flight plane i think chuck i feel that that for no longer than we worked for nine days that you can get along on a fairly small amount of sleep and just your reserves and your discipline and everything else makes you do the job properly but in my case i felt very strongly that i was on reserves that physically i was going downhill and the

48:17 it was of some concern to me that i wasn't getting enough sleep i knew i wasn't getting enough sleep and yet i felt fairly wide awake and alert on most of the days except the two days i was talking about but sleeping to me was a very insecure experience now how do you mean insecure you mean because of this wanting wanting something yeah wanting to feel like you the best i can say feel like you were in a bed yeah wanting to feel some pressure or to be reliant on something it was a pleasant it was really a pleasant experience to be in zero g during the daytime i thought it wasn't quite so pleasant an experience at night well did you feel that brings up the scene did you feel i gather from al's comments in particular uh this business of using your legs and your and your feet to try and hang on to something which has been described by by

49:18 other guys too at some length uh did did you have a feeling that that was the cause of this muscle business in your back more than because you know that that's been described and they've never been able to really put a handle on to why they felt they had that they've had this sort of a feeling that if they could just stretch that real good it'd be great you think it is due to the fact that you had we're trying to lock onto something thank you jack yeah as soon as that's what i've analyzed it after the first couple days i think we discussed it as a matter of fact and so we started exercising and then deliberately take time out to relax not only during the sleep room but also try to adapt ourselves to a relaxed state during the awake periods in the seats or on the optics or in the tunnel or something and after the second day it kind of went away yeah that that small of the back problem was gone after a couple of days and in fact i was kind of surprised at that i woke up that first morning and my back had bothered me during the night and i didn't

50:19 realize that uh al and ed's had a back was bothering them at that time too you know and i said you know i really didn't get that much sleep but this sounds crazy as all hell because i can lay on that uh big fine king-sized bed at the house and if i get a lot of sleep you know if i lay there for say 10 or 11 hours why uh the small my back bothers me sure and i and i said to these guys i said hey this is crazy i didn't sleep that much last night but my back feels just like i got about 11 hours sleep and they said well mine does too and then you know then we got to talking about it and uh but it was there and it was very conscious to me that first night in fact i thought probably my back kept me going to sleep as much as the new environment yeah uh rather than the zero g because i was always conscious of my back bothering me did you ever think about taking aspirin or anything to do anything with that did you i never take aspirin at all for them for the eighth thing i think until the time we

51:19 discussed it i was convinced that the reason i was feeling bad in the back was just not urinating for so damn long during that hole i wondered if you wouldn't think that i did think that yeah and then after we started discussing it i said well that may not be the problem or so that's just part of the problem everybody's got everybody's got it and i agree with al that it has something to do with the way you try to use your feet uh to stabilize yourself and i found i believe although i couldn't see myself i believe that when i was relaxing in the spacecraft receiver g i was in a curved position and it felt good to throw the shoulders back and straighten out or to take the extra gym and get some tension on those back muscles well you you tend to assume a sorry it's sort of like a fetal position if you just totally relax your legs will tend to to float up and come come up in a sort of a semi-seed and your hands would tend to float out about like this and your back tends to bend them so it tends to

52:21 assume that kind of a position if you just let all your muscles go so you don't have any muscle pulled on oh i tell you that one of the good things for that back too is just exactly that position just get yourself up like this and and i know that first night when my back was bothering me i i tried to sleep a good bit i'd reach down and grab a hold of my of my booties and i would lay there like that with pulling some pressure on my legs and it would and it would really help that that smaller your back cut i found both things either straighten it out to put some tension on the back muscles or as stew says double on out and pull the other way did how about when you got back onto the carrier now you got into a bed then for the first time back on in a 1g environment did you have any feeling did you have the feeling that you were real heavy that you were sinking into the bed did you have that when you're on a table or anything on the x-ray table or anything of that sort none of you experienced that how about weight of clothes did you

53:22 have a weight of clothes pants were too heavy or they were falling or anything like that when you first got back only thing i can remember about laying down on the bunk was it was uh it was a good relief to be able to lay on your on your stomach you know i generally i don't know which way i sleep most back or stomach or what but you know yeah you always had the impression no matter in what position you are in the in the spacecraft you're on your back and uh so i remember thinking of that the first thing i laid down in the bunk was i stretched out on my back and i thought gee i've been this way for nine days i think i'll turn over so i rolled over on my stomach it felt pretty good okay did any of you have any dreams at all did you ever dream in flying at all i did but i couldn't for the life of a recall well it doesn't matter yeah i had dreams but you did have dream activity at least yeah served these things good okay yeah i think of that heavy feeling chuck the only time i

54:24 noticed it was after we had landed we were still in the spacecraft we had strapped and the spacecraft were bobbing around a little bit but not too much got down the lab right away in the first couple of steps a combination of the rocking spacecraft and being in one g again for perhaps uh i don't know 30 seconds no more than that certainly that was my experience too and started doing some deep deep bends right away for maybe 10 12 of those babies and uh and i was right back home again and continued to feel that way no muscle soreness no feeling heaviness or anything did you this feeling that you experienced when you first went down the lab was that was that all over was that just heaviness in the legs or did you just feel heavy all over for just all over how about when you when you first got got some g on on re-entry did did you have a sensation that you had a lot more g than than you really registering you go through that i don't remember anything over 2g was i supposed to

55:27 these two guys were you know that you blanked out everybody else has done no i think you become uh very sensitive to uh g like even even ullage on uh in in the spacecraft you know or uh uh uh well that'd be just on time you'd really feel a g would be the all it's as as well as the sps engine of course you know it but on entry certainly you know as you're going through 1g uh it certainly doesn't seem like 1g it it's you're sensitive to the g since i wasn't quite as busy during that initial period as as they were i didn't have tracking tasks to keep me occupied uh i probably felt it more or was conscious of it more than they were and it felt to me like one hell of a load uh in particular my one task was to be watching the time and i couldn't get my arm up to see to watch it until after

56:29 peak g let off and then about four or five g i could pull my arm up take a look at it uh and i had the same sensation that al did right after i got out of the couch i felt very very heavy and then with just a little bit of motion it seemed to go away and i'd say it kind of described a very uh sharp rise the return to normal with a very sharp rise and then an asymptotic to one g because i still stumbled a couple of times getting out of the helicopter but i felt fine except i just didn't have the sureness of footing that i would like to have but that didn't last as far as putting you know that's a interesting thing that the russians had after their their 18 day they had some real marked mobility problems that lasted for days and you didn't have uh we've never had anything of that we've always had some initial footing problem you know just getting getting used to being back in the 1g environment and then you're on a shift too which is moving around

57:30 and uh this didn't last for any of you for longer than a few minutes really getting out of the house i never felt lightheaded at all no neither did i lightheaded how about putting your feet in the right place did you feel like when you were walking that you're walking normally on the that your steps were normal and everything you didn't have to worry about where your feet were no i i think that up to the point we got in the mqf i felt that uh that took a little care to make sure my foot was going where it was supposed to be going but it wasn't out of the ordinary you know really severe anything no it seemed to be improving very rapidly from a very heavy state for the first 30 to 45 seconds after i got out of the couch to within an hour or so after i was in the mqf the footing was very sure but i do remember stumbling once going to the end of the mqf from the helicopter uh and i didn't see anything to stumble over it just i stumbled you know i think hell you

58:30 do that right now though if you're going to walk out of that door with a television camera on you and you're going to walk up to the front steps you'd be more conscious of your footing you'd be more conscious of your footing whether or not you've been in zero g or not sure if you're carrying a load you're going to look very carefully where you're saying yeah you want to get knocked down yeah and you in particular know that uh you know you've just come back from a flight and uh people are going to be watching how you're walking and and all of this stuff so you know it's in your mind and you know you've got to walk this 30 feet to the mqf so just naturally you're you're more conscious of where you're going to put well i may have psyched myself into stumbling for that reason but nevertheless i did stumble in spite of the fact that i was conscious of the fact that tv cameras were okay did uh did did you notice any distortion of of uh your facial features at all did you we when you look at the tv the in flight tv as we watched you you know when inside the spacecraft uh you get the

59:31 impression that that your faces are not like they are now that that they're much rounder that that's a that's a thing that you see on the tv is that true is that did you feel that when you were looking at each other no but i i observed that when i saw a picture of us taken from that tv and i didn't think anything about it until you mentioned it it looks quite you look quite round you you look you look much different than you than than you do now it takes it's very rounded and but you weren't aware of that looking at each other yeah you know i uh al bean had made a comment of that in in the 12 report that after he got into orbit he looked around and and everybody looked 20 pounds heavier and i remembered that and uh i i looked at these guys you know they looked just as bad then as they do now uh i i had remembered that comment from from al bean's report and i really didn't notice it yeah they were the 12 crew i guess been the one that was the most impressed with that of anybody and they noted that they felt even that they

1:00:31 they had redness of the face for several hours after they first achieved orbit but well it's the his general feeling of fullness yes but i mean just to look at a person and see his face puffed up i didn't notice that at all maybe it's just lack of observation but uh i remember for the first five hours i'm too busy doing the other thing did did you have any sensation that in the first 24 hours in flight that you urinated more than you normally would than you did the rest of the flight time i don't know that's a hard thing to remember but do you do you have any idea that you did that at all i went seven hours without it all i never used my uh ucta that first one was a whopper i know that of course you got a lot of excitement to make it a whopper anyway so it's hard now no real no feeling one way the other okay uh was the can you comment on the work

1:01:39 that you did eva out on the on the lunar surface as far as as what you you felt based versus your ground training did you you think it was harder easier or about the same and secondly as a second question that did you did either of you feel really physically tired to to the point that you knew that you were really tired during during the evas even going up cone i felt of course it was a order of magnitude easier than 1g training just no comparison at all as we expected it to be uh and as far as as being tired i think i had already made up my mind that i did not want to sweat in uh on the moon that i was going to keep the water up and i was going to keep rested enough so that i didn't sweat for consumables and for fatigue purposes so i never really felt tired i did

1:02:39 feel occasionally that i was approaching the point where i'd have to have more cooling or take a break but it wasn't because of a tired feeling it was the desire to program and plan consumables the way we wanted to and not not be high so i i felt in my mind that i was stopping short of the point of fatigue as a direct plan of not wanting to use up consumables how about you well it's kind of hard to equate the pre-flight stuff with flight stuff first place you're not using the lcg and the pre-flight stuff you're lifting one essentially one g yeah pieces of equipment around so on uh so it's pretty hard to equate the two in my mind as to whether it was harder or easier in flight from the standpoint of the total workout but certainly standpoint of ease of mobility and so on as ed says it's a lot easier to get around i think you travel a lot faster easier on the lunar surface as a general comment to start off

1:03:41 dba1 i did not feel uncomfortable at any time at all dba2 i think the fact that i was aware of the workload was manifested primarily in the respiration rate as opposed to anything else i didn't feel as though the body heat was was going up too much the deep body heat was going up too much i think this is primarily because of the circulating fluid in the lcg and i was not aware of any profuse profuse sweating just a little thing change of uh of sweating or blush whatever you want to call it it's when i went to the medium flow on the water so i think and of course you're not really aware of an increase in heart rate unless you specifically stop and measure it somehow so i think to me the thing that was most obvious about the increased workload was the respiration rate and at times i think we suggested climbing the steepest grade of the crater that uh comb

1:04:43 that we we stopped and take a rest i think you all suggest that right but uh standpoint of being uh tired to the degree where i didn't want to press on after a short rest period no i didn't feel that at any time until after the two days was over and we were back on the command module i never really felt like i was behind the power curve as far as the total workload well we'll we'll try and give you some firm feeling for what happened with your evas when we do this later you know we show you actually what you know you did have some times where you both got heart rates that were up in 150 area you uh and this is why we felt and your respiratory rates were very audible and we didn't have a respiration trace on you at that time as you know but you you did have very audible respiratory rates and it was obvious that you were increasing those and uh al i think you begin to to to store i think you the thing is you

1:05:46 kept yours on men for a long time and and then when you did turn up to to medium flow you just left it there a short period of time and it didn't it didn't kick your rate down as much because you still were maintaining some of that heat in there now it wasn't enough to make you sweat apparently and then when you started doing that turning it on a little bit longer each time you just it just settle right back down you didn't have any trouble with it at all but both of you came down very well when you would rest your rates dropped down and that's contrary to what happened on 12 where they didn't drop down when they rested and yours yours did very well they just dropped they come right on down as soon as you stop doing that activity so that was right do you have a feeling that you could have uh you have a feeling any recommendation about extending evas now i mean do you do you feel that it would be possible with proper proper consumables of course that that you could that it's physically possible to do that i sure do i the thing that bothered me

1:06:46 was worrying about consumables i'm knowing that we were getting a higher metabolic load to higher heart rate more oxygen consumption going up cone crater and that i was spending more time on uh between minimum and intermediate cooling uh because we were rushing deliberately rushing to try to make up time i started worrying about consumables and especially in the water and the oxygen and i i felt that was a limiting factor i didn't feel that i was the limiting factor just the oxygen and the water i was consuming were bothering me well we tried to give you the word that you know that you were pretty fat on consumables really at the time we thought you were trying to save consumables obviously yeah we were yeah and it and understandably so and so we wanted you to know you you had enough and you could go to medium flow without really getting yourself in a hole was the thing we wanted you to know and after you did that i spent considerably more time on uh between minimum and intermediate you

1:07:47 know you did yeah i'll go down yeah you both did it incidentally i don't think i think that the comment is i'd like to comment about total workload with respect to the to the two-day period i i wouldn't want to see a crew ever plan to do any more than we did in those two days as far as i'm concerned that's about as heavy a workload as anybody ought to do and certainly if you're going to go out for longer periods of eba you don't allow longer periods of resting and make sure somehow that they get to rest yeah just allowing the time doesn't necessarily assure rest well tell me if you had you know in the in the limb i i gather one of the things that you think would help of course would be getting out of a suit that certainly would help if you could get out of a suit no one no question about that if you had something for sleep would you take it would would you guys have taken it in the limb if you had had something for sleep do you think i don't think so because what i don't think i don't know about ed i certainly don't take that kind of medication here on the ground it's an individual thing and quite

1:08:47 obviously and it you know it just depends on right if things as closely in space you can to the ground environments probably the way everybody would right so if you have people that do that in the ground problems would help them i'd prefer to see us using more natural means of getting to sleep as as opposed to an artificial you'd like to have something to sleep on what you're saying back to that again i think the suit's a big thing as far as i was concerned yeah they keep coming up you couldn't roll around you know even you couldn't roll around in a hammock and the damn neck ring and then you get back to the neck yeah there was one one thing chuck about fatigue the only thing that i felt fatigued any muscles i felt fatigued was a darn hand muscle in the right hand because of the sitting out of that glove because you were fighting that glove yeah and working the core tubes getting unscrewing the core tubes one of them i couldn't get by myself getting the caps off of them uh that was very fatiguing and that arm gave out how about when you're carrying the barbell out

1:09:48 there you're getting this thing you said you had to do it well that was tiring just because it's so cumbersome and it was flopping all around but i eventually put it across my arms like that and just aside from the the workload of carrying it out it was no problem it was heavy was the weight didn't seem different because you commented at the time and it sounded and it looked like you were having trouble getting out there with that thing was it the weight of it or was it just the fact that it was vibrating and it was sort of like it was mostly the vibration of it just the flopping flopping however uh i think that it was heavier than i expected from the 16g mock-up but the uh we had never carried it that far in training and i think we've made that recommendation that at least once the guys ought to carry it uh the whole way the whole way but it was primarily the flopping of those weights on the end that were giving me trouble okay let's get the uh i gather that on this bowel movement thing that uh the preps and

1:10:50 so forth you had a good comment in there that that that went fairly well you all did the same thing we knew pre-flight anyway now how did it work out though and the thing do you remember can you just tell us each one how you went i gather ed went almost to the end without having one according to a comment yeah yeah where's where did where did you go when did you i went to the morning of the eighth day to the morning of the eighth day was the first one and uh and that's the only one i assume yeah i didn't plan it that way what i wanted to do was to uh have one bowel movement before we went to the surface yeah so that would take care of of that period of time and i went around with a bag on my fanny for about 12 hours hoping i could do something and never did and at one point i even wished that we had a laxative before to

1:11:51 uh help me do that i'm not sure that's a good idea or not but it sure seemed like it at the time and uh you couldn't i was really concerned that that i need to have a bowel movement while we're on the surface and uh i got through that period figured well we got it made be good to get back to command module and use the bag and i still couldn't it was still the eighth day and that was a whopper did you ever get any cramps or anything with you ever had any gut disturbance at all right i wasn't uncomfortable i didn't even have a feeling of fullness good how about you out how did your cycle go well i had one and a half bags uh on the third day i believe it was and then another bag on about the seventh day the whole mess yeah as a big man and the

1:12:53 ability to clean up afterwards and the fact is the ability to maintain personal hygiene throughout the flight is okay we need betters steve how about you i went to uh 80 hours was the first one i remember distinctly because i said between 80 and 81 hours approaching loi well i'm going to do it and uh which which pleasantly surprised me too while we're on the on the gory subject because uh pre-flight i anticipated that i might have to use the bag more than that because in my normal course of events it's very common for me to hit the head

1:13:53 hit the head at least twice a day and but so i was pleasantly surprised that i got to 80 hours and then i had one other one and it was uh was after tei i guess the next day after tei and i don't remember what time frame it was or was it yeah i guess it was it was the day after tei and uh okay i don't remember the gt or anything i can't even associate it with anything except these guys and their gas mask i don't know what else was going on at that time yeah these guys okay all right when did you first start to use the nose drops how far into the do you remember what day third day was it three i think third day and do you feel that that was a i i'm a little bit confused about your your

1:14:54 description you're describing this fullness and still do you feel that this was a thing that was associated with the this fullness that was due to to the weightlessness or do you think it was an oxygen effect just due to the drying and so forth and i never felt that dry and i at the time i thought it could have been either or both and so i just treated it symptomatic symptomatically with a couple of with about one drop in each nostril that was completely effective for the next 10 12 hours well you could hear it this is a fairly routine you hear this in the guy's voices and you know they're doing it you know you hear this full feeling that they have sometimes they get a little bit of horse sensation with it too and it comes and goes and you described it i thought very well yesterday you know sometimes in the mornings it'd be you'd wake up it'd be better in the morning you know i don't know this this is kind of a subjective feeling it's kind of felt that maybe the whole full

1:15:55 head sensation was related to a readjustment of the whole cardiovascular system and therefore it is if you could relax a little bit in the evening and help it this is my theory yeah i kind of wished it that way it's just a general feeling nothing but substantially quantitatively and i think as far as the nose drops are concerned it helped with the mucus but it didn't help the overall fullness sensation did they work all right i know we got a special with stew here but did they work all right i mean did the just like they should have when i said clear that it made it clear out the the muse temporarily a few hours yeah okay and still what about now did you just give yourself too big a slug is that what happened to it or i think i probably did chuck i i'm sure that's what happened you know i uh said well i hadn't used any up to land but on entry you know that well i think i'll just use some of these beauties and uh i think i hit gave me too big a dose in the right nostril

1:16:55 here because boy my eyes started watering and i could feel it my sinuses and everything else and uh then but it lasted maybe an hour and by the time i guess i probably did that a couple three hours prior to entry and uh an hour later you know i i think most of the symptoms have gone away either that or you're getting closer to entry and you stop worrying about it but uh i did i i think i overdid it and i i uh just you know i hardly ever take any nose drops or anything and maybe i just got too much in there it's probably pretty powerful stuff it is powerful i know if i in one g or here if i take more than a couple of drops of acrid if i use drops instead of spray i get the same effect yeah that's not it's a burning in a real drying situation and it wasn't a lack of briefing or not trying it before flight or anything like that i think i was just a little overzealous in that in the application well you know two drops of good give it four yeah yeah what the hell did you

1:17:55 did you feel it you got anything did you get a tachycardia with that did you get a real increase in heart rate with that oh i don't have the funniest idea you didn't you didn't feel it anymore yeah you all had you all had the you all had to talk to a little more adrenaline he got mad at us for suggesting that we use the gun yeah i was ticked off with the suggestion did uh did any of you all had some some evidence in in your ears on on uh after on the first exam when bill saw you of having some some uh bubbles in there and did you have any sensation during re-entry that you were having any trouble clearing your ears any of you no sense it was right surprising to me i was looking for it surprisingly i had no problem not a bit i could feel the pressure change uh but uh feeling i could hear them pop but you know i could do i did that too on my uh suit integrity check i i could feel the pressure yeah you know and you just sort of

1:18:57 pop it i'd like to come in before i forget about this voice sounding full you know i noticed that that you'll do that a lot if you i think maybe it's because the atmosphere is dry but if you're doing a lot of talking and then you come on and i would notice myself sounding sounding full and i say gee i'm i'm sounding like that and my head wasn't uh constantly full at all but i could tell in my voice that i was sounding hearing in your voice if you've been doing a lot of talking right well that's true if you do you know like if you end up just talking all the time like if you end up here like in a session yesterday where you talked a lot during that that kind of thing if you just talk a lot during the day you can have it we don't have too much else to do in here charles yeah i know now we're back to that hey chuck comment on those we're looking for somebody to cut a glove who is it a comment on the after bottle they

1:19:57 uh the pressure gets to them and they separate into a jillion bubbles that emulsion is very bubbly and filled with air as soon as you take the cap off it comes out it starts leaking some knowledge yeah okay and it's it's kind of difficult to control that stuff that was the first time you open the bottle or always always every time you open it okay so what technique did you use for applying the nose drops how did you put it in very gentle squeeze trying to get just one drop of time out just put the dropper up put it in there and hosed it just like we told it to good boy uh what what did you take those uh prds down

1:20:59 in your in your suits tape you'll never believe it charles we had zipper pockets you're kidding no it's unbelievable they were there we pulled out those coveralls and there were zippers on them first time we'd seen zippers in the whole training cycle oh so they're not in the training suits they're just on the flight well how about that okay we had we had requested it way way back and forgotten about that we'd made the official request and it was already in the mail and nobody knew about it and none of the training devices were that way but lo and behold how the package they came with there was there they were well that's great they were great too okay well i don't understand where that is well

1:21:59 uh when you remove your uh pgas now is there a point of the checklist where we should include the removal of the prds back into your flight coveralls or or is that not there it's already says take all the items out of here oh it does okay it says that happens to be one that's by itself i see if you forget that extra pockets there you're good when i it's it's listed in there uh uh when we take the suits off the first day i i guess you know and then when you bring the suits back over uh from the lamb white you know a pretty rushed timeline that it wouldn't i don't know whether it'd be any good to put that in your timeline book or not because that time your main purpose is just get the suits and get them stowed yeah you said you jerk them down and kind of zipped up in those bags pretty fast right into the right into the back okay probably wouldn't hurt i guess when we list the items to take out of the suits when we come

1:23:00 back to the lamb we can just add prds in there is another item we list sunglasses and pencils and all the rest of the thing that's what and then i need sunglasses right now when did you when you said you used sunglasses you're the only one who did use some sunglasses is that right i use prescription corrective lenses oh okay when when did you use the correct one a couple times when i had to read small frame and the flight point in just in in the in the command module deal yeah with the helmet off all the time i didn't use it no i no i didn't i'd use it from time to time in the simulation particularly in the lms the only time when i can't adapt yeah did you have any did you have any feeling about that on the lunar surface now that low that the light levels were were bothersome to you because of that because that is a very typical thing that's a that's an interesting light levels were generally higher in the uh in the lunar module the thing that you don't simulate on the lms is the difference between day and night on the side

1:24:02 of noon how about that the lms is dark all the time for the wrong practice how about out on the surface when you were actually out on the surface and and had your visor down yeah did did did those light levels body at all i mean did you feel it that you were having any any difficulties in that okay it's a lot of problems i have is reading small print at close distances when the light level is low and i had the problem in the lms a couple of times in the cms in the lms i think i don't know how many times i broke them out but i don't know how many times i broke them out but i don't know perhaps perhaps six or eight times i'll try to read that dad's card that's the only time i've ever seen you use them yeah but on the surface chuck it's either stark white i mean dazzling white or it's absolutely black or it's black i don't think eyesight has a great deal to do with it that part yeah that's right i think you've covered most of that stuff about the vision on the surface and so are pretty well in there i think you've done that very well in the in the things so i don't think we need to if we have something that comes back up for that where

1:25:03 we'll get the word to you but as far as i can tell from getting through all that so far i think we've got most of that covered you know i might point out to you if you want to pursue the the visibility further for any sort of medical things if you look at the photographs in my opinion they're exactly what we saw is that right if you look across sun the visibility is great if you look up sun everything's blared out by the sun if you look down sun all of the general subtle rolling and the subdued craters they just disappear on it yeah but cross-sun visibility is great the photographs show it the same way you know just real briefly on that same subject i it's kind of hard to tell when you're looking at just negatives of these 70 millimeters but i was looking at some of the zero phase pictures last night and how the targets would disappear at zero phase it does it on the on the films also same way as it turned out i'll have to get you know see what the prints look like but my first impression is that i didn't see much more than what the camera did at

1:26:03 zero phase which is going to surprise me because i would have thought different yeah but that i don't take that as any sort of data until i've had a chance to really see a blown up print you know i'm just looking at some negatives in here but that's my first impression we've always said that the eyeball can see more than the film can but with our particular films i think they're a pretty good correspondence they're not going to be about the same that's great no we just have good film that's a preliminary thing hey on the sunglasses i guess you got it as far as i know nobody even broke their sunglasses out right and you didn't see that you needed them no well i think the only time we needed them was when there was sun shafting in but in ptc and just wait a couple of minutes it'll be gone goes away okay uh and there was a time at 196 hours where we lost your uh your respiratories at

1:27:04 your cpn did you notice whether was the was the signal conditioner disconnected then or was there a sensor loose or anything no there was nothing different it just quit apparently it just quit you couldn't see anything obvious as as to why no i went down went over the whole system we checked the sensors checked the uh the belt uh checked the connection and we were getting too close to entry to really do a great deal of troubleshooting so there was no no point to do it then and okay fine well we're going to check those things we never had a signal conditioner as such fail and that's one of the things that's sort of interesting to it if it wasn't a sensor problem we want to be sure and check those signal conditioners out okay uh i think we've got most of this mobility uh thing done in there i was talking about that biomed bill let me just say i think my urine bag problem the ucta problem is kind of related to that belt in that you know the ucta is held by that elastic strap right and i think the

1:28:07 problem in getting that hose length correct has to do with the fact that the ucta doesn't always end up in the same place you try to get it below the belt so that it doesn't get on top of it and increase the dimension and whether you're already done and i think in doing that i probably wore it a little more you know wore the gun down ahead more maybe yeah in retrospect if there's some way that thing could be fixed just in place then it wouldn't move up and down and therefore you can adjust the hose length a little better i wore mine differently i wore mine over the bio belt that might be the difference yeah well i think it's a question of fixing the uh the vertical height of that thing so you can get the right one because mine was up and down and i think when you reached in you probably found it was yeah sagging down as a result of being full of fluid in one hand but also because i used to wear it below the belt on the other yeah but it

1:29:08 his hose had a definite kink in it it came out of the fitting and just made a sharp kink and it was just like it came just like you see a little yeah very good did you have did you feel any uh real dryness of of skin as such or dryness of your lips or or your nose at all did you ever have any sensation that way not exceptionally for me i actually didn't have any obvious sensations i noticed i don't know where the student did i noticed his lips were cracking about the fourth or fifth day after we got back from teis but i don't know yeah no i i didn't feel uh dry in fact i know uh they're cracking in here too uh but uh no uh i didn't i didn't feel any dryness particularly though okay great we got these all covered uh did they talk to you about the phil chandlin uh wanted to to tack on the light flash thing on on the end

1:30:10 of this thing here so uh you want you to tell them to come on in and let them get that out of the way hey chuck just real fast um i know uh you you've got to take the data and you're looking ahead to the longer flights and uh i'm not trying to downplay it but this weight loss you know i think in my case uh i don't want it to be misconstrued you know i was just sitting here thinking you know i weighed less after our field trip to iceland than than i did after this flight too you know a weight loss of me of uh five pounds is is no just you know comes and goes uh with no problem at all well that's why the body water things are going to be pretty important you know to know is that really it you know is it really a total body water loss kind of thing that'll that'll be yeah real important plug to hang on there that's why we'll go over that way so that it is it is clear we won't have total body water or self or exercise your food spaces after quarantine that will

1:31:13 be done those are those are data matters we're just doing the gamma counting here why can't we get it out i would allow you that way we're just not we're just uh quick let's get it out i'll talk with you later there's a scientist let's go where's phil yeah there he is phil go out hey y'all want to eat coffee i've got a big pot right yeah i'm coming over to get some um dick suggested that that we should tack on a few questions about light flashes at the end of this briefing that's what we're about to do what we'd like to do is to clarify some of the subjective impressions that you've got of what you saw in the way of light flashes and also to to

1:32:15 clarify the conditions under what you saw excuse me can you stand back from the mic just a little bit that's a boom what you said right here it'll pick it up you need to get really close to mic you should be rocking is there a way that the room could be done that the room could be done yeah in a while the first question we got is the streaks that you saw were they very sharp phenomenon or were they rather diffuse like fuzzy ones i saw were very sharp there's no mistaking what it was it was a streak so long instantaneously disappeared yeah i think that's correct uh both uh the single streak and the double shots uh agreed to be very clear to me they were

1:33:15 quite clear and uh i think i made the comment over the loop that most of my streaks appeared to be on the periphery and uh for the first several days i got the impression that this this direction was predominant later on it appeared that i don't think i could get that that good a pattern but that was my first impression for the first couple of days all right the uh next question is was there any apparent direction of propagation and could you tell it was coming from one side to the other or was it just a flash similar times you could say from the left to the right or something like that tried to correlate it but uh in my case i couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it yeah i would think that the time period which we tried to uh report them streak by streak flash by flash was representative and it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period and uh therefore generally

1:34:16 random throughout the time that we were noticing now i meant uh could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other in general it was it was moving in a specific oh a specific a specific flash yes yes but you could see it as a travel from one side yes you really tried to report it that way yes you did report them that's the way puzzling us because it happens it has to be very fast you know isn't that question kind of ever done was there some character to these flashes that had some some aspect of direction were they all the same rod shaped or were they did they have a tail on them well what i saw what i reported as a streak was simply that uh now maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction leaving a tail but i don't i can't say that for sure all i

1:35:17 reported was a streak and i had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other and i reported that direction and i can't clarify it much more than that maybe while you're asking a question we just tell us the lights i think they can see this in the dark room which is right the idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it i think you need to like that bit well can you see anything yeah except that's what it looked like except it was traveling in other words uh it started out and it definitely progressed across the field of view direction of motion for individual was it that bright yeah except you're not traveling it was traveling you started the point i never did see two simultaneously either neither do i now you have two streaks like that i never saw that the uh at one time you said you saw a semicolon shape thing

1:36:18 so what