Roswell reunion interviews, July 1990: Walter Haut, Robert Shirkey and Sheriff Wilcox's daughters (National Archives, “Roswell Reunion: Number 1”)

0:00 Oh, sure, yeah. Well, that's east of Richmond, South Newburgh Airport. Yeah, I think Richmond was where Rade may have lived or in that vicinity. Yeah, Richmond, Virginia. Yeah. All right. And we've got speed? Okay. Phyllis, tell me about this period in 1947 during the summer when you came to see your father at Roswell. What did your father do in Roswell? My father was the sheriff of Chips County. And they lived in the courthouse. The jail and the sheriff's quarters were in the same building. And they lived on the downstairs floor. And then downstairs was an office with two rooms. And the... The jail was upstairs. And the prisoners

1:04 were taken into the office and then up to the steps to the jail. And were you living with your folks in 1947? No, I wasn't living with them. I was there visiting. I, my husband and I were both students after World War II in Las Vegas, Mexico in Highlands University. And we were there several years after World War II. To finish up our degrees which we had started before the war. Our education had been interrupted by World War II. So we went back. But I sometimes did not go quite as much because I had a young son. And he liked to stay with my mother. And if I was busy going to school. And we also owned a little business. And we worked in it. And so he'd stay there. And probably

2:07 he'd been there for a while. Or I don't know whether at that point I was actually in school or just going back and forth. And staying up there a while. So you came to visit your father at his office one day in July, we think? Yes, I came to, I was reading the, you could just walk into his office from the sheriff's office. And the paper came out like this. And I didn't read the paper. What do you remember about what the paper said? About the headlines and the flying saucers found. And I don't remember whether he told me about it before then or not. I don't know. But I did, was so interested. And I, in some way inside of me. And I loved it. And I wanted it to be true. And I went in to talk to him about it. And sometimes I talked to

3:10 him in the kitchen. I went into the office and talked to him about it. Yeah. And he was getting all these phones. He had, I remember he came into the kitchen and told about that he'd been up all night with the phone calls and that he had just talked to London England and that he was very excited about that because, well, the distance and the times, you know, it's not the same as faxing something or sending it with all distance now. The world was a lot bigger back then. Yes, it was. So, and the, you know, another thing about the world then. World War, they hadn't really rebuilt things that we, all the things hadn't been rebuilt from World War II. Now, in America, I know we weren't bombed. But we didn't have any, they didn't build any washing machines. They didn't build any new cars. They didn't build any new cars. They didn't build anything. Anything. Dryers. Nothing. Because they

4:13 spent all their time on the military and weapons and those things. So there were no, so we had to wait a while to get a car. We had to wait a while to get a washing machine because it's in the market. So you've read about this flying saucer incident in the newspaper. You went and talked to your father about it. What did he tell you? I asked him, "Do you think this is true?" And he said, "I don't know why Grazzle will come all the way in here and rock that stuff if it hadn't been something important." And that he didn't, that he had to be something that he thought was that. And he had sent deputies out to see about it. And, um, he was, he thought, I see, so originally he thought it was true, but he

5:14 didn't have any information. He was trying to send the deputies to get some more information. Now this is, but the first thing he did was call the Air Force because that seemed to be important to him. And he said, I said, "Why did you call them?" And he said, "Because I have an agreement with them that if any airman is in trouble in Roswell, any kind of problem about any airplane or flight or anything like that, I call them immediately. We don't have room in our jail for those and they come and take care of them. We just keep them all over. We just keep them a little while." They just held them until the MPs got there. And, um, the flight was the same and he felt that this had something to do with the Air Force or that was their business. He felt that was their midway. What happened? Did he say that he sent the deputies out? He sent the deputies out. I'm of the opinion that he sent the deputies out

6:18 once and that they saw a large black area, blackened area, the grass, the range laying. And that they came back because it was dark. And then when they came back, he had to wait until the next day to send them back again to find something else. And when they went back again, the army had blocked it off and didn't let them in. And I'm talking about the army here. I was just being clarified yesterday, but it was called the army. And see, I think Roswell told them how to get there, but didn't, but they, you know, there's a long distance between Roswell and Corona.

7:20 You can't send somebody out and have them search over a large ranch or look for anything. I don't know what time they went, but it takes time. And so the deputies were turned away by the army air force. Yes. And then, uh, I think it was then the next day that the army air force all came to the office and my sister came in. And what happened when you got to your father's office was the, uh, we, uh, we come in and we had a small child and Roswell was the shopping place for us to come and buy groceries. And when we arrived, why, uh, I noticed that there were jeeps and some people, you know, from our air force there. And, uh, of course I went right in with my small child and my husband Jay went into the office and he said to my father, "What's

8:23 going on, George?" And he said, "Well, we've had a man come in, uh, saying that there's a flying saucer and bringing a piece of things." And said, uh, "I don't know what it is." And said, "We're investigating it." And, uh, he said, uh, "What was it?" And he said, "Well, uh, it looked like a burnt grass." It looked like burnt grass out there. And my husband came back into the office, I mean back into the kitchen. My mother prepared the meals for the prisoners and we were in the kitchen. And, uh, we didn't discuss it anymore or anything. And, uh, as the years went along, mother would say, "Oh, remember the time when we had the flying saucer in Roswell?" And, uh, papers were out. And, uh, where I live, I'm very isolated. I don't, uh, I go 20 miles from my mail one way and 20 miles back. So I'm not accustomed to getting a newspaper very often. And I had no telephones. I had

9:25 no electricity at that time because we're so, we're in the grueling area. So it was another week's evening before I probably went back to town and knew anything too particular about it because I didn't stay all night. I went in and turned around and came backwards and had milk cattle which you had to get home to at night. So I really was not as familiar with it as Phyllis because she was staying all night there because she was going to school up in Las Vegas. And, uh, but as the years went along, mother would always say, and I also know of an article that she wrote that said, uh, we do not as to this day know that there, whether it was a flying saucer or what, because they told us, my husband, Mr. Wilcox, that she would say, don't you say a word. So he didn't. And he was very calm about it. I mean, he just didn't

10:25 say anything. Who told him not to say a word? Uh, the Air Force did. When they came and picked up the piece or whatever they did, she said they, uh, recommended him. That's what the words were in the little article she wrote. And, uh, I had it because she wrote, uh, a great deal. And she wrote an article on their four years at the county jail. They were not in the county jail, but that's what she said. Four years in the county jail. But they were there as, uh, working people in the jail. And, uh, so on the very back page of her, uh, article, she wrote, uh, the day the flying saucer was in Los Angeles, New Mexico. Do you remember what that date, what she said that date was? Yeah, the date was not on the, uh, paper. That's the reason I don't. And, uh, uh, she said in 19, uh, on the outside of this, uh, article, said, I, uh, sent this article to the Reader's Digest

11:26 in 1980. See, she had typed it over. She had a whole bunch of the typewritten, uh, things. And, uh, but they did not accept it. That was written on the outside. She also said that she, uh, I don't know whether she took the article or she spoke to the historical society in Roswell. It said, uh, Roswell Historical Society in Roswell, New Mexico, on, in 1980. So, she might have taken the article over to the historical society. I do not know. Did your father describe to either of you what this material that Mac Brazil brought in looked like? He did not to me. He said, um, he brought some material with him and junk. Like, I don't know what it is. That's the best I can do about what his words were. Just about briefly. And, uh, about the Air Force warning, there

12:26 also, uh, my mother had written on there, this is a real and true story. And, uh, she had spoken about it some after, you know, that, and I think, uh, and, uh, she had talked to different members of the family that, that there was a, uh, a crash and there were bodies and, but that they could not say anything about it. She told my daughter. She had told people. And I think maybe I had one conversation with her about it, but I could not recall it well enough. But she talked about bodies? Yes. That, that she had heard that there were bodies recovered? Yeah. Um, what about Mac Brazil? What happened to him during this period of time? Well, the Air Force took him right away and, and, uh, he really never came back to the

13:27 Sheriff's Office. And the material was left there and the Air Force picked it up and, and took it away. And then, and, and then that was the end of it. And, uh, my father said, I said, well, what are you telling the people on the telephone? He said, I don't have any information. I have to tell them. I don't know. That it isn't. I, I don't really know. I have, I haven't seen it. I had to get in there and the Air Force is handling it and I'm referring calls to the Air Force. So that's right. He said, I didn't even answer. I don't think I did. According to some of the witnesses here. Mm-hmm. He said that he had had calls from all over, from, uh, England, uh, Germany. I believe, I can't imagine. She wrote it in this article. The name's the place where they had the calls from that morning when we got to town. And, uh, it was quite exciting and rushing around there a little bit. But, uh, we didn't, uh, uh, just didn't go in, I just didn't go

14:29 in the office. I just, uh, stayed back in the kitchen with Mother and then she told us what my father said, but she said that he was not to say one word. And she didn't say anything either. For years and years. Years and years. Yeah. Years and years. Yeah. I think it's four years in the town jail, so she had to write this article after, uh, 1951. So, since she usually wrote things down sometimes very soon after they happened. Yeah. I'm guessing it's been in the '50s. '55 that she wrote it. But we don't have any, um, we don't have any date. We don't have any proof. Mm-hmm. I'm guessing the late '50s too myself. That's just what we had talked about guessing it today. Late '50s or late '40s? Oh, late '50s. Well, see, this happened in '47. Okay. Okay. And then they were still in the sheriff's office until, I believe it was '49.

15:32 It may have been. Uh, okay. So we're just adding some years onto that and saying that that, the title of the article is Four Years in the County Jail, so they had to be out. So your only question really is when did your mother write the article, not when this incident happened? Well, I think. Well, I know that. And we're trying to say we think that it was in the '50s. We think it was in the '50s. My father became very ill right after he came out of the sheriff's office. Oh. And she was traveling around trying to find the best doctors and everything in the world to help him. And they, she was very, very busy. And she had not started a business or had anything, you know, because she had just come out of this job. And he didn't have a job. And he didn't have a job. So then she became a real estate agent in Roswell. And she did the work. And my father passed on. And he died in '64 or something like that, or '60. I can't remember what year. '58. '58, I believe. No, it was in '60. We decided that. I think the other day was '62, we think.

16:33 Yeah, we're pretty close to that. Uh-huh. What did you all hear about Mac Brazil's being detained by the Army Air Force? I didn't hear. Phyllis, did you? Well, I don't know when I heard it. I know he was detained by the Army Air Force. And I know he was after. But after all, you know, he had just been through all this stuff. Plus, we had been interviewed before. Plus, I had read the Roswell Incident, the MJ-12, listened to Stan Friedman talk. So you learned a lot of stuff. Yeah, the last two years. I'm not sure what you knew, when you knew it. That's true. I don't know what I knew about Roswell until after I read the book and after. When I talked to my father, he said, "I don't know why Braswell would have brought that stuff in." And some way he indicated that he

17:37 trusted Braswell. And it's probably because he was New Mexico, Ranch, came all the way trying to tell somebody, you know, "I found something unusual and want someone to help me." And so I think I did get that impression then. I know I did. But when, what else I know about Braswell's internment, I don't know. Would your father have known a weather balloon if that's what it was? Oh, I think so. Yes, we have all on our ranch. They're little square boxes and you can, the balloon just deflates and you pick them up. There's been a number of them. They have a place that you can send them back to the Air Force. They're there to do that now. As far as he was concerned, from what you know, that this was not a weather balloon? Oh no, I don't think it was.

18:38 They said it was about a piece of the saucer, you know, a piece of metal or whatever it was. They have the metal in that office, in the small office over there, but the door was shut. Nobody went in there. It was locked. It was locked. And the Air Force picked it up and took it. From your father's office? Yes. And took it and said, "Don't you say another word about this." They had a little meeting in there when they picked it up and they had all the Jeeps and they said there was probably three people in there. But see, I didn't see them. I don't know who they were either. I wouldn't have known if I'm shocked. Did you see a little? No, I didn't. I just saw the military, you know how Jeep drives up in front. If you have something, there were open Jeeps and it was hot weather and they got out and put them in the office and that's all I know. Besides that, I did not go in there unless he wasn't busy. You know, I didn't go in there and stand and listen to anything that was not my business, you know.

19:39 My husband went in there and visited all the time because he was a man. Yeah. Then he wouldn't go in there. And mine did too, I'm sure. But I just, you know, I went only when he was by self or when I really needed to go somewhere. Did your father ever name any of the military people who were involved with taking this material out of his office? No, not to me either. What happened after the Air Force said this was a weather balloon as far as the calls? Well, then they just went down because the Air Force says it's a weather balloon and it becomes a weather balloon. Right. Everybody just accepted that. That's right. They may have known and I remember distinctly thinking this isn't right. I don't believe this. But you know, you're visiting them alive and what do you mean? I didn't dream. I never had an idea about investigating anything like these guys. Doesn't sound like your mother was convinced.

20:39 No, she wasn't. She was not. No, I think she knew that. She was very, very brilliant and she was, she didn't have all of the responsibility my father had with all the prisoners and all the deputies and all of the jail and all of the things. And so she began to be real curious but she said her, he told her the story and then she kept it as long as she possibly could. And then she thought, well, she could tell our children because it would be her grandchildren. She had talked to them and, you know, kind of come forth. But you can't, if they say, don't say anything and you live right there in a military town and it was very important to Roswell to have that base there. Really, it was important. And they were in the public eye. Like, you conform to things. It's not that you're put in prison or you're that, but it's just a part of nature that you do it. Someone asked you not to do something and you say, yes, I'm not. We do what we can for our country and you

21:39 just do that because we thought it seemed important. And a lot of people felt that the Air Force was doing experiments and that this was some new experiment that they were doing and that it would be harmful to their new experiments if you told what they were. Or some other country might get the plants, you know, or some kind of thing like that. So, if they were doing experiments with things, then I think that I thought that that was a possibility. Well, we were all so patriotic. Everybody was doing their job and they would not tell anything because a war is a war, you know. And you believe that you should be very patriotic. Now, both our husbands were in the service and we knew what that was. It's funny to have them be in combat. And you both live around Roswell today. Yes, we do. What would you say is the sense of a

22:40 community there about now, 43 years later? It's entirely different. A lot of people asked me about it and a couple of my friends bought me the Rosaline. Yeah. And I have several people that have stopped me, asking me questions about it. And I have a couple of one woman's two grown sons that live in California and they're very interested in this. And I see them every once in a while when they come to see their mother. They told me that, one of them told me that he thought they were building some material that was similar to the material that they found, that they found out on Roswell's ranch. And he said, I think that they have almost duplicated that and it's going to go on the market. And we talk about things like that. I talk about it with several people in

23:43 that area. And they believe it. And the mother worked at the base at the time. And we talked about things like that. I talked about it with several people in that area. And they believe it. And the mother worked at the base at the time. And she just says, I believe it. Believe what? That there was a flying saucer. That's what the mother did too. Because she called it a flying saucer and wrote about it. That's what this lady does. She's a little older woman. But she said, I believe it. She worked at the base at the time. She's a long memory to iron. And she lives in a rest home in Roswell. But she's got her dreams. Now, if we were to take an opinion poll in Roswell, in that community, what do you think? And then the question was, do you believe a flying saucer crashed here in 1947? What would be the results of that poll, do you think? I think that would be at least, I think at least half of them. But now see, that's the old timers too. And we have a lot of new influx of newer people there. Because when we're talking about Roswell in 1947, we think, Elizabeth and I think about 15,000 is

24:45 probably what it was. And now it's 40, 50. And they're assuming. And they came back from the Air Force and retired there. They liked it so well. I had friends that had gone to Germany and looked into the colonists and came back to Roswell and retired. These lots of people retired. They're not natives like we are. So now we have to take those in consideration if you're talking about the majority of them that live there right now. But the people who lived there then. Okay, let's say that. Do you think most of them? No, I think that 60% will. I have, when I got here, I arrived and there was a friend of mine who had a daughter who's just moved up here. So I gave her a call. And I said, "Alice, I'm here." She said, "Oh, what are you doing up here?" And I said, "Well, I came to kind of a convention for UFOs or flying saucers." Just in that conversation that was something at Roswell. And she said, "Oh, yes, I remember about that one." And I haven't seen her. She's

25:47 been in Saudi Arabia. She's been in Sweden. She's been all over. And she's with oil in the oil business. And they had moved up here. And I said, "Well, I'll give her a call." So I said it to her. She had heard of it because her mother probably told her because she probably is in her 40s. So see, she would be someone that her mother would have to tell. About the flying saucer over the fossil. And she lived about 20 miles from me. But that's neighbors. That's as close as mine get. Well, I know you ladies have a boat ride to take, so I'm not going to keep you any longer. Thank you. Oh, yeah, appreciate it. I'd just like to ask you, as a big picture of me, if you would mind reading over and signing the screen. Yeah, I appreciate it. But then you come in with your questions. Okay. Well, I'll just get you started. Just

26:47 asking what you were doing in 1947. How's that? Okay. Tom, we're ready to tell you. Okay. Do you have any introduction? No. No introduction at all. We're just rolling the tape. And I'd just like to ask you what you were doing in 1947. I was at the air base in Roswell. I was in the military and I was first lieutenant at the time. My assignments were three, interestingly enough. I was assistant flying safety officer. I was assistant base operations officer. And I was assistant group operations officer. Now, the group was a 509th bound group. And because of the building I worked in, all three offices that I just told you about

27:49 were contained in the same building. And for a time, it seems, I was running back and forth. At that time, I was primarily in group operations. And the call came in one day to arrange to have B-29 ready to go as soon as possible. And, of course, someone asked where to. I said, "Just get a crew on board and have the airplane stand by and we're going to go to Fort Worth." And that was Colonel Blanchard's directive. So I was out in the operations office. I have to explain to you, the building is an H-shaped building. And the vertical part of the H is where the two hallways were, one on each side. But the

28:49 one on the right side ran directly from the parking area out front and went straight through the building and out to the ramp for the aircraft. The cross of the H, half of it was the operations, the base operations office, where the base pilots came in and filled out their flight plan and stepped to one side and obtained their weather briefing and read notices to airmen and got all the material ready to go. And the flight clearance then was taken and submitted to the tower to let them know something was going to happen and to air traffic control and so on. So I explained last night, or yesterday afternoon, trying to clarify a point. Each squadron also had their own operations set up and they could release their aircraft without going through base operations.

29:53 And they would let us know that a group was taking off and just how many airplanes that were. But they had already handled all their arrangements with air traffic control and with the tower and so forth. At any rate, I was in that operations office and Colonel Blanchard drove up and came in and asked, is the aircraft ready? And I and one other fellow there, who was now dead, said yes, it's sitting right out front ready to go. And with this he turned, stepped out back into the hallway and waved to some people outdoors and still sitting in the aisle. And I suspect trying to recall another four or five or six people. And I'll say five. Doesn't really matter. But they came in the front door straight

30:54 down the hallway and right out onto the ramp to climb into the airplane. And these were the people that were carrying parts of the crashed flying saucer at that time, a UFO today, that I got to see. And that was the only thing I got to see. And it was very short, very quick. And Colonel Blanchard, in order to get out of their way, had backed into the doorway of the ops office. And I stepped up to him and I said, "Colonel, turn sideways. I want to see too." Maybe if I hadn't said that to him, made it obvious that I was there, I would not have been shipped out two weeks later. What was his immediate response to your request? Well, he just turned and if you knew Colonel Blanchard, and when he went on to become three-star general and vice chief of staff,

31:57 he was a very commanding presence. And he was a good officer, a real leader. And when he said he wanted something, people said, "Yes, sir." And it wasn't just because he was the military. So he just turned and looked at me, and he did turn sideways so that I could half-step into the doorway and watch the fellows go through. And thus I saw them carrying certain pieces of these metals, items. And as I've described to other people, when asked, they had one piece that was, oh, I'd like to say, you know, "Oh, I'd like to say, oh, I don't know what I'm going to do, I don't know what I'm going to do." I was going to say, "Well, I didn't know what I'm going to do." And I was going to say, "I don't know what I'm going to do." I was going to say, "I don't know what I'm And I was going to say, "Oh, I don't know what I'm going to do."

33:05 And it was still reflective, but that's not what it was. It was like the opposite side, which is rather dull. It doesn't have great reflective power. I've heard it mentioned now, of course, so many times about the I-beam with the markings on it. And I actually saw that piece of I-beam being carried through and saw the markings. But it was a case of, "Here it was, and there it went." Very quick. That was all I got to see. They went out, got on board the aircraft, went to Fort Worth. And Major Marshall went with it, of course. I mentioned the operational setup. This had become clear in the discussion that

34:05 there was some confusion about what airplane went where. One of the first interviews I did, they asked me about a B-29. I said, "Oh, there was a B-25 also." Well, a couple days later, we had occasion to set up a B-25. Take -- do something and take something to Fort Worth. Then there was a third flight. And this was the B-29 that Pappy Henderson was the pilot. And he flew to Wright-Patterson Field in Dayton, Ohio. Directly from Roswell? Yes. No stop-off? No. I say that not really knowing that answer, but going back to the time element involved, I sensed the other day that everyone got the impression that Major Marcel went out to the crash site, picked up this material, brought it on base, showed it to the colonel, and it was flown out. And at the same time, Walter Haunt had made

35:11 this newspaper release, public relations release, and within 12 hours, it was all squashed and killed. And every -- I picked up that everyone was thinking that everything went out on that flight, that they went to Fort Worth, and then they went on to Wright-Patt. I have to jump now 40 years because something that happened in our house. There was a couple we had in for dinner, and I knew he was a mortician and retired. On the 40th anniversary, the local paper in

36:12 Roswell reprinted the story of the flying saucer and the pictures or the sketches, and so on. And they had a couple sketches of what the aliens were supposed to look like, these alien bodies that were claimed to have been found. As we were walking to the front door down our hallway, this fellow turned to me and said, "Did you see yesterday's paper?" And the article on the Roswell incident, I said, "Yes, I did." And shock number one comes when he said, "That's what they looked like." And thus we stopped and talked a little bit, and I come to find out, and he has since been interviewed by Stanton Frieden. He was a mortician on duty that received a phone call from the air base asking for child-sized caskets and body bags that night.

37:18 The night after the first airplane flew out. It develops that this individual was driving an ambulance for the mortuary, which was a service they provided the Air Force. And he had gone to pick up a sick airman in town and took them to the base hospital. Now this is the next night, 24 hours later. And he said, "I'll go over and see my girlfriend." And it happens that the nurse who handled the bodies was his girlfriend. They had even been thinking about getting married. I don't recall her last year. The first name was Naomi. He walked into her lab area and was immediately stopped by air police and escorted

38:24 out. And, before he was actually taken out, she looked up and said, "I will call you later." And they said, "Where are you going?" "I'm going to see my girlfriend." Lieutenant calls him. Out. They took him out. Later they did meet, as he told me, and she sketched on a prescription pad what these aliens looked like. And he had that sketch and took it back to the mortuary and put it in a file in the drawer of his desk, where he had a series of files on the work that he handled. That was all the records they were keeping. He delivered so many caskets or he picked up so many airmen and took them to the hospital and so forth.

39:24 Stanton Friedman interviewed this individual and they arranged to go to the file building that the mortuary still maintains. And they found all of the files, manila folders and so forth, that he had had in his desk during the years he worked there, except that one file with the sketches in it and any remarks about it. That had been picked up sometime and taken. By whom, they don't know. But here again, the secrecy bail had come down. So you were shipped out shortly after this happened. Yes. Now, as I explained yesterday to the people to clarify this point of the different flights.

40:25 I had learned, of course, that the sergeant of the guard with a series of airmen went out and they surrounded the site and then they swept the area and picked up everything they could and the bodies were brought in and everything was laid out in Hangar 84. And what happened to them then? Well, as I was relating to the fellows, the Air Force had established a system of -- there was a base operations office for all normal activity and they controlled the weather station, they controlled the crash equipment, the tower operation that oversaw the -- controlled the immediate area. Each squadron had its own contact and own operations and they could set up their own training flights, establish their own contact with air traffic control, tell the

41:26 tower that they were going to take off tomorrow at 10 AM, the whole 12 airplanes or however many. And all they provided to the base was the fact that 12 airplanes leaving tomorrow may have gone on, let's say, a 15-hour mission. And that's all we needed to know, speaking in terms of representing the group ops and the base ops. And one of the squadrons, this is about three days later now, four days, announced a training flight and their aircraft all took off, let's say this morning, in the order that was prescribed and so forth. And one of those aircraft was flown by Pappy Henderson, which had been loaded with all the material out of Hangar 84 and went to Wright-Patterson. Including bodies? Yes. They were in the caskets that this friend of

42:28 mine had supplied from the mortuary. Did you see the caskets or the bodies? No, I didn't. How do you know that they were on that flight? Because that's when they got there. How do I know? I was told that that's what Pappy Henderson said he carried. He was in the hangar and saw this material and saw that his aircraft was loaded. And that was years before he mentioned anything to anybody else. At any rate. In other words, what I was trying to convey is everything did not go out with that first airplane, you see. And when the next flights went, we can't find out today. There was no way of tying it down. They have an idea when he arrived there. But that's not important. The point is that once the secrecy veil

43:29 dropped and Colonel Blanchard was informed and he informed his staff a day later, the official story is this was a weather balloon and that's it. Nothing further need to be said. I ran into, I don't call it misunderstanding, the lack of understanding on the parts of a couple of investigative reporters who asked me a leading question and I turned and looked at them like I'm looking at you and I said, "How old are you?" And then he was rather startled, you know, he said, "When were you born?" Well, he was born around the time of the Korean War, '52, '51, '53, you know, different dates for different people. And I said, "All right." I said, "Your knowledge of war has been

44:32 limited to the Vietnam situation and the confusion that was going on and the lack of support by people for that war and really the confused way it was run by Washington authorities." I said, "Never before in the history of military operations has a national capital setback and told the people how many bombs they can drop tomorrow or how many shells they can fire in their gun." You know, this is a ridiculous way to run an operation. But back in, oh, the question had evolved because of Walter Haught and myself, who knew each other at the air base, knew of, who a year and a half later or two years later shared an office for a year in town as civilians.

45:33 He was running his little thing and I was running my little operation and we cut expenses by sharing an office. And he had raised a question with Walter and then with me, "How come you fellows never talked to each other?" And Walter had made the remark, "Well, I guess I know what I know and he knows what he knows and that was it." "Well, how come you didn't talk to each other?" That's what I'm leading to and why I asked him how old he was. I said, "World War II. If you didn't experience it, it's very difficult to understand." But I said, "Someone came up and slapped the collective nose of the country and we fought back." And it was in the newspapers, it was in magazines, it was on the radio. Statements similar to loose lips sink ships.

46:34 I said, "Don't talk about anything. Don't let on you know anything." Because someone is going to take the information and use it to your detriment. I said, "College campuses got into it by using signs that said, "Minefield, don't walk here," rather than keep off the grass." Newly seated areas and they'd have it roped off and said, "Minefield, don't step here." Consequently, the entire country became, in a sense, brainwashed. Everyone was concerned with World War II. And I asked the question, "Did you realize, did you ever know that everyone on the coastline had blackout curtains on their windows and on their doors? When someone rang the doorbell, they turned out the lights before they opened the door?" And he said, "No."

47:34 I said, "Well, this is true all the way down the eastern coast around Florida and the Gulf of Mexico." The theory being we shouldn't allow the enemy to know where our cities were. Of course, now they could sit out there during the day and watch. And people in New Jersey could look out in the ocean and see tankers being blown up by torpedoes. This was taking place right out there. And this is the way we operated. You were told not to talk about anything. And then if you were in the military, it was even more emphasized. Consequently, Walter knew his thing and I knew my thing and we never talked about it. We had never talked to one another about the Roswell incident until after we were invited to come here. And suddenly we both. What do you think?

48:35 I guess we both felt we had to explain to each other what we did know. What do you think happened? What crashed in New Mexico in 1947? I think some type of craft, of which we were not at all familiar, had a problem and did come apart and crashed in the desert area in New Mexico. I really do. It was the properties of the material that was found was unknown to all our scientists. The bodies had never been, no one had ever been seen like that before if these sketches were true. And I feel they were. You knew this mortician pretty well, didn't you? Yes, it developed. He and my wife went to school together. And his wife and I knew each other through

49:37 some friends from the moment I first went to Roswell in 1945 to learn to fly V-29s. And we were very close friends and came close to marrying one another, you know. And she as much as told that to my wife. She said, "But you got there first," to my wife Joanne. And we've been close friends ever since. All this time. But ever since the event took place, we knew each other. And we never talked about it. What happened to her, the nurse? The nurse? I heard conflicting stories. I'll jump back to the time of just after the incident occurred. The airplanes have taken the parts and the

50:40 body of the student. I was shipped out to the Philippines. How soon after? Two weeks, we said? Within two weeks. Was that unexpected? Well, it developed. It was unexpected. These things occurred off and on to people. But there was a telegram, TWX called the military. It came in from 8th Air Force. It said, "Urgent need for one each flying safety officer, MOS number, such and such, to report to Clark Field in the Philippines." And they turned around and looked. Well, I'm not even sure, but it might have had my name on it, because I was the only weights and balance officer on that base. And so I was shipped out, going to Clark

51:45 Field in the Philippines because of being weights and balance officer. I understand the nurse was shipped out the same week. The sergeant of the guard and the guards, all of them, who surrounded the site, swept the area and picked the pieces up. They were all shipped out. And every one of us went to a different base someplace around the world so that no two of us were together. And so I was just going to be able to do that. I was just going to be able to do that.

52:45 That's what this telegram says. I said, "We don't care what that says. We don't need one. We've got one. We don't need another one." I said, "What else do you do?" I said, "Well, operations office." I said, "All right. I'll assign you to squadron so-and-so as the operations office." That's where I went. And we were involved in photo -- high-altitude photo recon. That's what I spent the time when we were doing it, taking pictures from high-altitude. Where was the nurse shipped out to? I understand she was shipped to Germany, and I understand I was told that there was an airplane crash, and she and a group of her nurses were all killed. The sergeant of the guards that surrounded the territory and picked up the material, he lives in New

53:47 Mexico, and I understand just recently spoke to one of the reporters for the first time, but his information has not been released in any of the stories. I say that because the investigative reporter said, "Bob, you just saw him." And he had spoken to us for the first time since the event. Now, that was -- well, that was nearly 43 years. Almost exactly 43 years. Yeah. And he said we're -- since we're the first ones he's talked with, he said we're not going to use any of his material at this point, because we have to dovetail and collaborate and make sure we're -- but he said, "I am finding that what you said," talking -- speaking to me, he says, "What you have told us this evening just

54:48 emphasizes and proves the point in what everyone else has said." This particular reporter, by the way, would come out of New York City, and he said when he got the assignment, he was totally aghast that they would think of sending him out to research some unidentified flying object, which he didn't believe. But he said, "I had become convinced of being here." And so, roughly speaking, that's my story. It -- I saw a couple things. I was involved with scheduling an aircraft. I was shipped out with several other people all about the same time. And 40 years went by before a best friend of mine spoke up for the first time and said, "I know something about that." Since that time, Stanton Friedman has interviewed the individual.

55:49 I took them -- took Stanton up in the mountains to meet the man because Stanton didn't know whether he should go. This was rather interesting. As an aside, perhaps had nothing to do with the interview. But I was talking to Stanton in his hotel room in Roswell and Stan said, "Well, so-and-so has invited me up there for dinner tomorrow. Do you suppose I ought to go?" It was kind of -- I said, "I can rent a car and drive up there if you think it would be worthwhile." And I said, "Stanton, knowing this individual." He's one of the good old boys. He speaks his piece. "If he invited you to come up and have dinner with him, that means he wants you to come up and have dinner with him." And it wasn't a polite thing he was doing.

56:49 I said, "It's an exceptional thing he's doing." So I went home and cleared the decks with my wife and called Stanton back and said, "I'll take you up there tomorrow. This will help you and I'll introduce you." So we did. They had a great interview. And then we all went in to have dinner together and we continued the interview, clarifying some points for Stanton. Since you and the mortician, your friend, both had an interest in the relationship with Naomi, the nurse, the nurse. I have to ask what you think about what you were told about for having been killed in a plane accident. Do you accept that? My only thought was -- I had two thoughts about it. One is, gosh, what a waste.

57:49 Because when I was working there in group operations, the colonel who sat in front of me, or I should say the colonel operations officer, behind whom I sat with my desk, and to my left was Major Woody Swankett, who flew the Bikini Drop. And the colonel got an assignment to go overseas. And his airplane was reportedly blown up over the ocean. He had nothing to do with the Roswell incident because he was going overseas before the Roswell incident took place. And it was one of those things. The Follows were here today, and, gosh, Fred, you're going where tomorrow? Oh, is that right, you know?

58:50 And your airplane goes down, you're lost. See? Well, there's another friend gone. And that's the way you thought about it. The second thing I thought of in regards to Naomi and the nurses was -- of course, now, I'm overseas. I learned this either while I was there or right after I got back -- that her airplane had been lost. So there's two possibilities. One was the normal, natural thing of some kind of airplane being lost, because it does occur. Or, boy, is the government taking that extreme to control what she knows. Because she was the one who actually worked on the bodies. And another thing was that they had called this mortician, asking him for information on taking care of

59:55 the bodies, because he had just newly returned from the school with the latest methods known at that time on how to preserve the bodies. And so she had related to her what he knew. And she was trying to do that. And she had more firsthand information about the alien bodies than anyone else. What about yourself? Do you have any concern? You're a former military man. Are you drawing a pension? No. So there's not any direct hold the government has over you in terms of -- Did you sign any kind of secrecy oath? No. I was not told to keep quiet. Some people were, whom they felt had more information than they knew I did. Right.

1:00:56 And it's just that, as I learned, everyone was shipped out. So that probably pretty much took care of it, I suppose. That was the first initial attempt. Now, this mortician, for example, because of his involvement, he was visited. His mother and father were visited by military people, whether they were in uniform or in civilian dress. And they were warned not to say anything to anybody about anything. Very direct. And once again, I believed this man without fail. And so some people were directly told. Others were just shipped out. I came back from overseas and learned that

1:01:57 Walter Hott had resigned his commission. They left him alone. Walter, of course, as you probably know, never did see any -- he personally never saw any of the parts or pieces or whatever. He just happens to be the guy that wrote the release that stirred everything up. Yeah. And again, it was Arnold. Thank you, Mr. Sherkey. I appreciate your time. So that's all I know. Fascinating. Absolutely. That's it. Okay. I still get tongue-tied and forget things. Questions that I've answered 15, 20 times. Same question, but put just a little bit differently. You have to shake your head and back off and regroup. Yeah. Well, I don't need to give you my standard lecture about I want you to be relaxed. It's just you and me talking.

1:02:57 Just sort of ignore Tom and his camera. Just pretend they're not here. I just want you to be as comfortable as possible. I do have a bad habit, and you may think I'm looking over the camera. I'll do that occasionally. You know, when I'm trying to think, I may lose eye contact with you, and that was just strictly, I want a break. I mean, just, that's a good excuse. I'll look away and see if I can stop for a tenth of a second. Okay. Tom, are we rolling? Yes, we are. All right. Mr. Hawke, can you tell me about the day that Colonel Blanchard gave you a call and told you to put out a news release? What was happening that day, as you recall, in that phone conversation? Basically, up until the time I got the phone call from, I sure can't tell you what was happening. It was probably a very routine day. I was doing either some public relations

1:04:01 work, base housing, or something else. I really, I can't remember what it was. It was just the normal working. I got the telephone call from Colonel Blanchard, and in essence, he told me that we had, he had in his possession, a flying saucer, or parts thereof, gave me a little bit of idea of where it came from, and the ranch northwest of Roswell. Then stated that Major Marcel, Jesse Marcel, who was our base intelligence officer, was going to fly it to Fort Worth to turn it over to General Roger Ramey, as commander, commanding general of the 8th Air Force at that time in Fort Worth. And what did Colonel Blanchard want you to do? He told me to prepare a release with,

1:05:03 basically, the information that he gave me over the phone when it was done, to take it into community and hand deliver it to the four news media we had in Roswell at that time, which is what I did. As best you recall, would that have happened, the initial phone conversation during the morning or in the afternoon? To the best of my remembrance, it would have been in the morning. And I would have to guess, somewhere I would guess around 9 o'clock. The only reason I had come up with that figure is that had to be done and gotten into town so that it would have gone to the record in time for them to set it and to have gone ahead and run it in that day's evening paper. And would you know what day this happened?

1:06:05 I would say the 8th of July, 1947. And that was the date of the Roswell Day Record article? Yes. Okay. Once you wrote up the news release, then what happened after that? As I said, I had to take it into town. He had told me to take it in so that if there was any validity to the fact that this was a flying saucer, and information got out to other news media other than our own, he felt that he wanted our people there in Roswell to have had first crack at it. Didn't want them to feel that he had given the information out to someone who got it to the press services outside of Roswell. So I took it into town and delivered it to the four news media in town, two radio stations and two newspapers. Do you happen to recall what your itinerary was, who you went to first, for example?

1:07:06 I'm almost certain I went to radio station KGFL first, secondly to KSWS. They were a half a block north, and then I took it to the Daily Record, which was a block further north, and then on my way back out to the base, I dropped it off at the morning dispatch, which was about three blocks from the Daily Record. What's your recollection about the reception initially when you handed out this news release to these various local outlets? Did anybody read this material and respond immediately? I don't believe they did. I believe, again, you're going back some, many, many years, I believe the first place I went was to, as I said, to KGFL, and I believe I just simply left it on the desk of

1:08:10 the receptionist. The best I recall, she was not there, and Frank Joyce, to the best of my memory, was in the studio, and he could see the reception area and also see out on the street. And I think I probably pointed at it to indicate that it was something for them. I don't remember what had happened at KSWS. The record, I gave it to the editor because he sat close to the front door, probably said, "Hi Don, how are you, Dad? I might like to have this," or very, nothing fantastic, just the normal routine, what I did when I brought them a news release. And then I went down to the dispatch. Again, I believe there, I took it into

1:09:11 either the editor's office or the publisher's office. I did both of them real well, and occasionally I'd stick my head in and shoot the breeze with the publisher. The actual delivering of it to who I gave it, I may have seen a half a dozen people in the different news media offices, and who I finally said, "Here it is." It's kind of hard to differentiate from one to the other. Nothing remarkable. Nothing like that. Nobody said, "Oh, wow." You know, I just looked there and almost put it down. Well, most journalists treat news releases, right? That's right. And this was not something that was unusual, because you walk into someone's office and say, "Here's a news release," which I had done many, many times, and nothing was that hot.

1:10:16 They had to grab it and run back and stop presses and that type of thing. So they took it and probably glanced at it and had a few words, and I went my merry way. And what happened next, after you had completed your appointed rounds? I returned to the base, and when I got into my office, the phone was ringing. I picked it up, and the first call was from London, England. I answered the phone. That's how I found out. I was from London, England. There was some newsman over there. And his question was, "How did Major Marcel know how to fly this object?" I had, in the release, had stated that Major Marcel had flown the object to Fort Worth, meaning that he had put it on an aeroplane and got in and flew the aeroplane. It was a poor choice of words, the way I put

1:11:16 it. There were a tremendous number of calls of the same effect. If this was an unidentified flying object, how would we have someone within our Air Force that knew how to just get in there and flip switches and run controls? Some of them, oh, some of them were rather terse. Is this another one of those fly-by-night stories? Can you verify it? The commanding officer was the one that stated that this is what we had. That was verification enough for you, wasn't it? For me, that was more than enough verification. When he said something, that was the law. That went on continually. We had continual phone calls coming by people that were working for me in the office. I left somewhere around 5 o'clock, maybe one state till 6 o'clock or so on. I left there, I would guess, 7:30, 8 o'clock.

1:12:18 By that time, it tapered off completely, and I spent the last half hour or so just looking over what had happened during the course of the day and beyond the Roswell incident. The base didn't stop operating because we found that so-called flying saucer. What happened the next step, as you recall? The only thing that happened of any import, as far as I was concerned, I believe I read it in the morning newspaper, heard it on the news that General Ramey said that we didn't have a flying saucer, that that was a weather balloon. With what I just read this tremendous sigh of relief, and I think I turned to one of the people in the office and said, "Well, they sure made fools of us again." Then again, we fit into the category of hundreds of others that had said they saw

1:13:18 flying objects. It was not uncommon for people to think they had a flying object, and then lo and behold, it shot down. Beyond that, that was the end of it. Did you see any of this wreckage or any of the material? None whatsoever. Do you believe that Colonel Blanchard had seen it? Yes, I do. And why do you feel that way? I don't think he would have been so, I don't want to say gung-ho, but I don't think he would have been so confident in his comment of, We have a flying saucer in our organization, or parts of a flying saucer. I don't remember this many years. I don't remember the exact verbage, but he wasn't overly excited. He wasn't flipping about it. It was this normal, routine type of conversation that we'd have when he'd call

1:14:20 me and say he wants this done. But he sounded pretty positive about it. He sounded positive, yes. About what he had. Would you have any reason to believe that Colonel Blanchard would have mistaken this material for being any form of weather balloon or observation device? I don't think there's one chance in a billion that he would not have recognized a weather balloon. He was a West Point graduate class of '37, as best I recall. Had gone up through, from second lieutenant up to colonel, not too many years. He was a very intelligent individual, not the type to just jump off on tangents. I think he knew a weather balloon if he had seen it, and that would have been the end of that. He wouldn't have gone anywhere with it. He would have told Major Marcel this is a

1:15:21 weather balloon. Then again, Major Marcel would have known that it wasn't a weather balloon. That was my next question. Is it possible that Major Marcel would have been misled? No. Is it possible that Colonel Blanchard might have been misinformed by somebody who told him about what this wreckage was without having seen it for himself? I would doubt that very much. I don't think he would have taken the actions he did by going down to operations with it. If he was there in the operations building, he certainly saw it. I'm sure that Major Marcel had talked to him and had given him some pretty sage advice as far as he was concerned. I don't know how much of it. I don't know how much he knew about it, but he was a very intelligent individual and not the type that would just jump at anything

1:16:22 and try to carry it to an end. Between the two of them, I'm certain that one or the other would have called the other one's hand if it was a weather balloon. So what did you think when General Rainey said it was a weather balloon? Did you believe that? In 1947, when the General said it was a weather balloon, it was a weather balloon. It was a load off of our mind as far as I was concerned. When I said our mind, my office, the public relations office. Because you'd no longer be the focus of your attention. We were out of it completely. You're just as happy that that was the case. Very much so. That was, as far as I was concerned, that was the end of the story. Surprisingly, I used to see General -- at that time, he had become a general blanchard. When he'd come into town, he'd call me and I'd

1:17:24 go out and have breakfast with him or lunch. Never a word was mentioned at any time during any of our conversations. Was that deliberate on your part? No. I had very frankly completely forgotten about it. And whether he had forgotten, I would doubt it very much. But he just never brought it up. Did anything happen -- did the Colonel say anything about this incident shortly after General Rainey's statement? Perhaps in a staff meeting? In the next staff meeting, which was about a week later -- I think we held him at that time every Monday -- he made some comments about our agenda and what we were going to talk about. And I believe after those comments, he made some statements. He said, to the effect, we sure messed up on that one last week. As a matter of fact, he said, that outfit

1:18:27 that was letting -- sending those weather balloons up were here on our station. They were from White Sands and they were checking the upper atmosphere winds from east to west. He sort of helped butter us the weather balloons theory. He, with that comment, we all -- see, we knew it all along. You know, we were all real smart all of a sudden. We knew that it wasn't a flying saucer. Did you ever have a chance to talk with Jesse Marcel? Not until about, well, 1980. The next time I talked to Jesse, I came to Roswell with Johnny Mann from a TV station in New Orleans. He was taking Mann out to the site to show

1:19:28 him where it had happened. He interviewed myself and had brought Jesse with him. And I spent an hour and a half or two hours with Jesse the night that he was there and talked about it. And he baptized it. That was no weather balloon. What I brought into the general's office is not what was there when I came back in the news media were there. That kind of convinced me, but he was a neighbor of mine a block down the street in Roswell. And I had highest regard for the man. He was a very fine individual. We were impressed with his son, Dr. Marcel. He was quite a sharp little 11-year-old. I believe he was 11 or 12, whatever was he. He was as sharp as a cracker.

1:20:30 And I think he still is. What about another officer there on the base who worked with Major Marcel, Sheridan Cabot. Does that name ring the bell with you? The name, yes. I had heard it. He was OSI or CIA or something. I had no association with him whatsoever at any time. I had you asked this question in 1947 and he walked by it. I could have said that's him over there. That had been about the extent of it. Had nothing to do with it in any way, manner, shape, or form. There has been some talk about the circumstances under which you left the Air Force. The suggestion was that somehow you were pressured into leaving because of your

1:21:32 involvement in the story and that sort of thing. Have you said it straight? Do you want a long story or a very short story? Well, let's try the short version that I could ask questions. At the time of the incident, we had a two-month-old daughter. We had built a house a couple of months before. I was gone a lot of the time. I had about four different jobs. We were starting to wonder. Well, I think my daughter at her age of two and a half or three months wondered what this was that came in the house every once in a while. My wife and I talked about it and talked about it. It was quite a decision for us to have made and try to decide to stay in the service or get out. Well, we kicked this thing back and forth and back and forth. And finally, in February 1948, we decided

1:22:33 that we'd stay in Roswell. I felt I knew enough people in business there that if nothing else I could get a job in Roswell. I submitted my letter of resignation. I was a regular Air Force officer. I put it on Colonel Blanchard's desk April the 1st of 1948. On August the 18th of 1948, they got a Twix to have the base. It started out with 1st Lieutenant Walter G. Hawks, serial number 041123, and goes on and on and on and on and on and on. It states that relieved of all duties and assignments and all that. And it ends up Mr. Walter G. Hawks' permanent address is 1405 West 7th Street, Roswell, New Mexico. I thought it was rather humorous. I started out as Lieutenant Hawks up here and it twists that long at the bottom.

1:23:34 I was no longer. I was Mr. Hawks. It had nothing to do whatsoever with the incident or anything else that had happened on the base. It was just a personal matter that my wife and I both felt we'd like to raise our daughter in Roswell. A small enough community, a good school system, everything else. Maybe we shouldn't have been thinking that far ahead at that point in our life. But it was one of the things that we were taking into account. I was also probably going to be transferred to Fort Worth within a matter of, I don't know, four or six months. We didn't want to go to Fort Worth. We wanted to stay in a smaller community. My insurance had told me that if I did go to Fort Worth that I would become Populations

1:24:35 Officer of 8th Air Force. He transferred over there subsequently and became Operations Officer of 8th Air Force. And from then on he started going up rather rapidly. He was rather well connected, wasn't he? Yes. His mentor was General Curtis. I have to stop on that. I always want to say Curtis Easy LeMay. That was Curtis LeMay, General LeMay. So, as far as you're concerned, you could have stayed with the military and joined a rather bright future. Yes. There was no talk about your being shipped out after the- None whatsoever. Things just went on the way they had been going on. Not the day I arrived on the station, but after we came back from Bikini, where I become Public Relations Officer for the 509 Air Attack Unit.

1:25:35 And I came back to Roswell. My term made me the Group Public Relations Officer and also Base Public Relations Officer. Do you have any regrets having been involved in this incident? None whatsoever. I found it fascinating. I meet so many different people. 99% are real nice, but once in a while that 1% always pops up and kind of squires you away. Go on your merry way. It's been fun. In your heart of hearts, what do you think it was that was on that ranch in Roswell 43 years ago? Some type of craft from outer space, from where I do not know. I've talked to enough people involved in it. I've talked well on it.

1:26:36 I've talked to Jesse, Marcel Sr. and Jr. Other people that have had little touch of it. Bob Shirky, who still lives in Roswell. Everything I've heard from the investigators always, every time they come up with something new, I'm kind of, wow. That really is a surprise. That puts another crown or star in the crown or whatever you want to say about it. My feeling is that there's been so much that has been brought forward by legitimate people that there had to be something to it. Apparently, that's what it was. It was something that crash landed out there in the desert. I'm a firm believer. Can I get you to express your desire about what our government should do about this, at

1:27:36 this point in history? Well, very frankly, I think that the government ought to take all files that they have on this subject and turn them over to a committee of legitimate ufologists, if you will permit the use of that word. I think that there's a lot of people that they have on this subject. Whether they be the ones that I'm familiar with or a panel of scientists who are not negative, but will look at all the information with an open mind and come up with a conclusion. I think that, well, there's a censorship, pure and simple. I don't like it. We want the right for people to walk the streets with placards and protest.

1:28:38 I wonder what would happen if a bunch of people started walking around the Pentagon or the archives carrying signs. We want the files. I don't think we'd get very far. Well, that's right. Is there anything that I've missed in all of this that you feel is important to add to this record that we're trying to put together? Any experiences that you've had or any thoughts or concerns? Well, all my experiences with this have been extremely pleasant. I've met some of the nicest people. I've only had one experience. It was a telephone call from a fellow who called him when I came. I was out at the time. When I came home, my wife said, "The shadow called you." And I said, "The what?" She said, "You know, the shadow, the squeaking door." This fellow had called me.

1:29:39 He was a friend from my past. He spoke his very low voice and very slowly telling me that I was going to be in trouble. I should forget this whole thing. He told me all about how the materials were found and they were put on freight cars and shipped from one place to the next. My recollection of that is real vivid primarily because I was trying to talk to this fellow and keep a straight face. My wife kept walking near me. I thought that was one of the funny ones. He told her when she had first talked to him that morning, he said something to the effect, "What do you think about the UFOs?"

1:30:40 "Oh, I think it's a lot of fun." "There's nothing funny about it." The guy was really kind of a crank phone call. Do you know who this was? No. I tried everything I could to trick him in to give me some clue that I know him at the base, that I know him from where. He just didn't stop. I kept on not threatening me, warning me about the dire consequences if I kept on talking about these UFOs. We still laugh about it. The rest of the people, everybody's been extremely gracious. They're very knowledgeable people. Once in a while you get someone who asks a question that kind of throws you off in the corner. I've tried to answer everything as honestly

1:31:42 as I can and I've had no trouble with anybody. I try to keep my story straight. Let me change on that. I try to keep my story simple so that it'll be straight and I don't have to cover anything up. That's about it. It's done enough of that, hasn't it? Yes. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. You're welcome. Tell you what, we'll let you get back to the meeting. I'll walk you down there. Oh, before I let you go.