Roswell reunion interviews, July 1990: Jesse Marcel Jr., Vern Maltais and Robert Porter (National Archives, “Roswell Reports, Volume 6”)

0:00 Okay. Jess, how about just saying your whole name so that we can make sure we get everything right. Jesse Antoine Marcel. Seriously? Seriously. Antoine. And you are a physician. Correct. And what kind of field of medicine do you practice? Well, I specialize in ear, nose, and throat conditions, you know, tonsillitis, ear infections, anything about the cloud will have to do with it. And you also are in the National Guard? Correct. How long have you been serving the National Guard? Since 1978 or 79. Jess, I wonder if I can take you back to the night that your father came home. Do you have an idea about what time of the night that was and what you were doing at the time? Well, I was asleep for one thing. I'm not -- I want to say it was very early

1:00 hours. It was either very late in the evening or very early in the morning when he came back here. And I had awakened both myself and my mother. And why did he wake you -- wake you both up? He had something he wanted to show us. This apparently was some debris or something he brought in from the field at that time. And I understand he was on his way to the air base to deliver this, but he felt that this was unusual enough that he wanted us to see it first before he delivered it to his proper destination. And what happened -- what happened after he woke you up? Well, he was, as I recall, very excited. And, again, he said, "I want to show you something." And so I got my house coat on and did my mother. And he had gone out to the car and brought back in some metallic debris. I believe it was in a box. I don't recall whether I walked outside with him or not, but he made it seem like the

2:00 1942 Buick we had was loaded with the stuff in the backseat and in the trunk area. At any rate, he brought the material in and spread it on the kitchen floor. And in an effort to try to piece it together like a jigsaw muscle to get some kind of form of this, but unfortunately it was too much of it too finely divided to do that. How old were you at the time? Uh, 11. Uh-huh. Okay. And when he spread all this material out on the floor, what was your impression about what this material was like? How would you describe it? Well, initially just looking at it, well, what's this all about, you know? Sleepy-o. But then when you get down into looking at it, it was the unusual character of the debris. I want to say that he said something like this is from a flying saucer, but I'm not sure that he said that. But the meaning was clear that it was something very special and he wanted us to

3:01 look at it. And what's your recollection about what the material looks like, felt like? Well, I could divide it into three major categories. I'm thinking back on it a few times. Uh, there was a lot of rather thick foil-like material, kind of a, not a shiny aluminum, but a burnished or a slate gray type of aluminum metal. Uh, there was a black plastic type debris, like Bakelite, which was shattered. It was very brittle material. And then there were, uh, fragments of what appeared to be I-beams. Uh, relatively small, but, uh, the typical I-beam type configuration. Let's, let's talk a little bit about each category for a little bit of detail, if you will. Uh, let's talk about, first, the foil-like substance. What, uh, what sort of, what was the size of this material? Well, I don't recall seeing any piece that

4:01 was greater than four to six inches in circumference or diameter. Uh, I don't recall whether I tried to test it for being able to tear it or bend it or anything like that. Uh, it was very light and, uh, again, a dull metallic gray color. And, uh, there was a lot of that. How thick would you describe this material? Well, it was about, it was thicker than the usual kind of kitchen foil. I guess there's a newer foil out now for heavy-duty use that, uh, is used in, uh, storing food, and that's approximately what it was like. In terms of thickness? In terms of thickness. Any other similarities to everyday household items that people would use? Well, it was metallic, you know, that's about all I can say. Uh, not shiny. And the pieces of, of the foil-like substance, uh, what shape were they? Well, it was, um, shredded and torn.

5:04 So, uh, irregular shape? Irregular, right. And it was a lot of this material? Well, enough to cover the floor with. Was this, uh... And more, because there was a lot more left in the car. Okay, that's what I was going to ask. He didn't bring in all of them? No, no, no. It was only one portion of the car. Okay. Um, the, uh, the weight of this material you described as light. Uh, would you, would you say that it was unusually light, lighter than you would expect, or heavier, or anything, anything at all unusual about its weight? Well, feathers. Very, very light. Very light. In other words, you could take a piece, and it wouldn't just fall to the floor, but it would kind of drift down a fairly slow light. No, that's very interesting. And, uh... Did you actually see that? I... No, I did not, but this is what, you know, I would have thought it would be like, you know, if I would have done that. Uh-huh. I would have filled up drift down a little slow. The light is a feather. Interesting. The, uh, what you described as an almost plastic or bakelite-like material. Tell me a little more about that. Well, it was, uh, black, brown in color. Uh, again, irregular pieces. Um, about a sixteenth of an inch, maybe a little bit greater in thickness. And, uh, brittle. At least I suspect it was brittle because it was shattered. Like glass.

6:04 Uh, I want to make sure I understand. You didn't actually see it shatter. Uh, you didn't actually see it shatter. Uh, you didn't see it. At least I suspect it was brittle because it shattered. Like glass. Uh, I want to make sure I understand. You didn't actually see it shattered. No. But it appeared to have been shattered. Yeah, I didn't try to bend or test any of these things I saw. I just picked them up gently and handled it. Okay. Anything else unusual about the weight of this material? Plastic light? It was very light also. I, you know, it's kind of hard to, I don't recall. It's comparing it with the other. Uh, anything else, uh, worthy of comment about this material? Do you recall? Mm-hmm. Basically just the description of color. Uh, shatter-type, bake-like material.

7:07 Yeah. Now how about what you described as I-beams? What were those like? Well, they were, again, looked like the same-time material that the foil-like materials made of. Uh, metallic, uh, dull gray aluminum. Except very light again. Uh, I did not try to bend it or stress it in any way. Although the piece I remember looking at was about, uh, twelve to eighteen inches in length. Both ends, I think, were shattered or broken off. Wasn't as clean cut. Mm-hmm. And, uh, the material thickness appeared to be about a sixteenth of an inch thickness. And what color was it? Again, it was a dull gray, uh, like a flat aluminum finish. I guess that would be a good way to describe that. Uh, metallic? Metallic. Definitely metallic. Okay. Anything else unusual about this particular piece of material? Well, the most unusual part of this whole

8:07 thing was what was on the I-beam, the inner surface of the I-beam. Uh, because as you look at it head-on, there appeared to be a type of writing in the, on the mainframe itself. Uh, this writing was, uh, definitely a purplish, violet hue. Uh, it did have, uh, an embossed appearance because you could, if I recall, you could rub your finger along and you could tell it had texture. Uh, I don't recall any seeing any lines or letters of any kind, but it was more like geometric shapes. Or, well, it's more to describe it, uh, it was, uh, curved, curved geometric shapes. There might have been some triangles and circles, but, uh, uh, they were solid. Is it possible you might have mistaken it for Russian, Japanese, any other language?

9:10 No. No way. Anything like hieroglyphics? Well, in my, my first impression was, uh, this is Egyptian hieroglyphics, but, uh, I knew enough at that time to know that it wasn't because hieroglyphics usually have some animal symbols in it. Um, and the, the, the lettering, or we can call it lettering, of these symbols? Yeah, individual symbols. Uh-huh. They were not connected. Okay. Uh, were, were, they were in color? Yeah, yes. Uh, but they were on a surface that was, what? Well, the surface was the same color as the rest of my name, uh, dull metallic gray. Uh-huh. Okay. So it was just the symbols that were in a kind of purple-pink. That's right. That was the color that caught your eye. Here in all this, uh, massive, of, uh, metallic gray, uh, pieces, there, here's a flash of color. What do you recall your father saying that night about how he came into possession of

10:12 this material? Uh-huh. I don't recall a whole lot of the mechanics or the logistics involved. I do know he'd been going for quite a while. I'm not sure exactly how long he'd been going, you know, but, uh, he, uh, if I remember saying something about this came from the Cri-Site or from some of the Bellas Ranch here, northwest, northwest, north-west of Roswell. Uh-huh. And, uh, you said at the onset that he appeared to be excited. Yeah, that's the reason he got us, I thought of that. Why, why was he excited about this? Because he felt this was something very unusual. He felt it was probably something we'd never seen before or would ever see again. And, again, I want to say that he said the words flying saucer, but I cannot be sure about that. I wouldn't, I, I'm almost positive he did, but I can't recall verbatim what he said. When you said that your father had been gone for some time, are you, do you mean hours or

11:13 days or something? Well, again, you know, my memory's kind of crazy about how long he was going. I know he was, uh, maybe more than 12 hours, maybe a day or so. And how long, uh, was he at your home that night with the material on the floor? The total, uh, time there was about 15 or 20 minutes. And what happened after that? He loaded up back in the car and took off. Uh, do you know where he went? Well, he was going back to the base, that sounds my understanding. When did you next see him, do you recall? I think it was the next day, although I'm not absolutely sure about that either. And did you have any conversation with him about what had transpired since you had seen him last? Well, you know, he was trying to recall those conversations. Uh, I don't know that we had talked about it very much afterwards. Uh, the initial excitement had worn off and then the whole deal kind of was put to rest.

12:15 Uh, there's still a feeling like there was something very unusual about this. It was not, you know, uh, uh, something commonplace like they would like to say a weather balloon or a radar target. Your father didn't think it was a weather balloon or a radar target? Never did. Did you think it was? Well, even at that young age, I had kind of an interest in electronics and weather and things like that. And I'd seen weather balloons and I'd seen pictures of radar targets. That was not one of them. Was it like anything you'd ever seen before? Uh, not really. One thing that sets apart was those I-beams with the symbols. Did your father ever speculate about what it was, where it came from? We would talk about it periodically over the next several years. We'd always thought that it was, uh,

13:15 something very unusual. It would, you know, I think initially they might have thought it was even a Russian weapon or some head gunner. That was for the reason for the cover-up or the, uh, very end of the story. But later, uh, it was determined that it was not a Russian weapon. I mean, uh, so that left one out of the possibility of it. It was something from out of our atmosphere. Was your father in the habit of discussing his work? Well, he was in intelligence. No, he was not. Not in the habit of discussing his work. Um, so I guess it wouldn't be real unusual for him to be rather quiet about it. He was not given to, you know, verbal diarrhea about things like that. But he obviously did eventually talk. As time went on, you know, the seed had been planted in the back of our minds. And there was something very unusual about this. And from time to time you'd read about some UFO sighting in the paper. And it would trigger, uh, maybe a little

14:17 conversation about what this was. Knowing your father as your dad, uh, what do you think motivated him to go public with this account as he did? Well, this didn't happen for years. And, uh, he was a radio amateur. Loved ham radio. And I don't know the exact scenario, but I can picture that maybe they were talking on ham radio. He was talking on ham radio with somebody. And maybe the discussion came up about a recent UFO sighting. And he would say, oh, by the way, I was involved with one. And I could picture that as being the mechanism that this thing came out. I don't know that to be sure, but that's, I think, the most likely way. And when journalists, uh, and, and people came to ask him to be interviewed for this, uh, he, did he, do you think he had any reluctance? Do you know if he had any reluctance about speaking more publicly to a wire audience

15:19 about this? Well, this is many years later and, uh, it lost track or in touch with the air force community. And, uh, I think at that time the uniqueness had worn off a bit where he felt less constrained. Um, Kevin, I don't have any more questions than anything that we failed to cover that's important. When your dad came home, did he ever suggest you weren't supposed to talk about it? Was there any kind of discussion about what was said at the base and let's not talk about this anymore in those first few days? I don't recall that exactly, but I think the implications are that it's over with, don't say anything more about it, at least don't even bring it up. Did, um, after he came out with his story in '78, was there ever any contact with anyone

16:20 in the Pentagon or anybody from the military suggesting that maybe he had, uh, spoken out of turn? Well, going back to the first statement too, I never discussed this with any of my friends either. I, uh, had a lot of friends and, uh, acquaintances in Roswell and I can definitely say I never even told them about what was going on. Later on, you had suggested that, uh, it was in high school before you really ever discussed it again with your dad. Did you ever discuss it with any of your friends in high school when the stories would come out in the newspapers or suggest to anybody, well, you know, these things are real? I don't recall ever saying anything about it. When you'd see these stories in the newspapers, kind of, what was your, what was your reaction to it? Was it kind of, I know something more about it or? Well, my initial reaction is maybe most of these are hoaxes and, uh, maybe a misidentification of things, but I do know of one that was not hoax or misidentification. Was it the feeling of you, your father, your mother that it was extraterrestrial in

17:21 origin? Yes. I, you know, we, we felt it was all a very unique experience that, uh, you know, we just happened to be at the right place at the right time to see things. But was your feeling that it was extraterrestrial? Yes. Actually, my own personal thoughts was, you know, after we started sending satellites around, you know, the Russians in 1957 with the Sputnik, I felt that maybe this was a probe that happened to land on our planet from someplace else. From another planet? From another origin planet. When you had the debris in the kitchen, was there any odor associated with any of the debris at all that you recall? No. Did the, uh, material feel cold to the touch at all? Well, it was metallic, you know, it was a hot night, so it didn't... You know, I'm sure it was the ambient air temperature or whatever that was at that time. Is there any possibility that your dad might

18:22 have slipped a piece out of the box to keep for a souvenir? No possibility. He'd never think of doing something like that? No at all. Uh, his background was intelligence. Was that his job all through his military career? Was he always in intelligence? Well, that and photo-analysis interpretation. Mm-hmm. During the war. Now, did, um, there have been stories that he flew as a gunner? Well, as a... He did man the guns. I know that. Uh, I think what happened... He was a navigator, or he went along many times to view the bombing runs personally. Mm-hmm. It was funny that the fact that they had photographs, but he'd get more information about being there on the site. Mm-hmm. And I do know one time that they were shot pretty badly and he, uh, had to take over credit guns. He must have known how to man 50-caliber or something. He described, uh, sitting on a box of... an

19:27 empty box of ammo and having some slugs to go between his legs through the box from a Japanese, uh, firing at him. And was quite excited about that, I imagine. Yeah. And another time they were, uh, they were shot down. They had, uh, two of the engines, four engines shot out. The plane in the B-29 doesn't fly very well on two, and then the third one gave off. They were going down like a rock. Did he have to bail out, or did he? They bailed out, yes. Oh, wow. So his military career, he was basically an intelligence mostly for his intelligence, or his military career. Right. And he would get sticked down as a, as a pilot too, as much as he could. Yeah. Non-rated aviator type. We know how that works. Uh, there are many stories about his, his military career. He did not stay for the full 20? No, he did not. He got out as a lieutenant colonel? Oh, major. Uh, he was, uh, given a reserve commission on the lieutenant colonel. But he was on active duty as a major. So he never served as a lieutenant colonel then? He never served as a lieutenant colonel. I know a lot of the reserve papers he got to him was addressed to the lieutenant colonel,

20:29 but he never had the privilege. Lieutenant colonel. The lieutenant colonel. So he got out, he had no military pension. No. True. He got out of the service, went back to home in Louisiana. Um, was a TV, radio repairman or? Right. He owned a? He owned a radio television and a sales service. And that's what he did until he retired? Mm-hmm. Thanks for that. And the first time you remember him really talking about this you were in high school, said something while you were in high school. Well, about that time frame. You know, because at that era you know, flying saucers were in the rage. You know, you'd read about these reports in the papers. You'd read about these reports in the papers. And then you'd read about these reports in And you'd read about these reports in the papers. And you'd read about these reports. And you'd read about the papers. And you'd read about these reports. You'd read about the papers. And you'd read about that time frame. You know, because at that era, you know, flying saucers were in the rage. You know, you'd read about these reports in the papers. And these sensational magazines. And things like that. Which tend to degrade the story. Yeah. As if we need that. That sort of thing. But he was, for the most part, pretty close-lipped about this. Even after he was out of the military. Right. Yeah. It wasn't really a daily topic. And there was no military pension for him to protect him? Yeah. Right.

21:29 It wasn't really a daily topic. And there was no military pension for him to protect him? Yeah. No. The only thing he had for the military was he fell off a roof when he was repairing his hand radio antenna in Roswell. And he had a fracture of an arm in the elbow and I think he had $14 a month, you know, for a disability. It was a very minor disability. But that was the only thing he got. Yeah. So that there was no threat they could hold over him. That if you talked about this we were going to take away your pension or anything like that. Yeah. Do you remember how long, how much time he spent on active duty? How many years he got in? Well, I know he went in 1942 and stayed until 1949 or 1950. So seven or eight years as well.

22:33 And there was a story that's been published that he wrote the speech for Truman when the atomic bomb was exploded by the Soviets. Any truth to that? Or he provided the intelligence information to the President? I have a vague recollection of something of that nature. But I don't know that he wrote the speech. But I do know that he was in on preparing something, gathering information. He's part of this intelligence function. Right. Yeah. But that was not really a subject of conversation. Did you ever notice your dad or did your dad ever break security other than this one time when he brought the material home? Although he really wasn't breaking security since it wasn't classified yet. Did your dad ever break security at all that you recall? One of the times. And that would be when? I don't know really well.

23:34 I guess I need to bring that up though. I don't know really. So, as far as you know, your dad really never broke security. Right. He never really talked to the neighbors. He never talked to friends about what he was learning with his job. No. It was all pretty. Okay. Thank you very much. I'm just going to ask you some questions just to get you started. No. Okay. Vern, tell me about your relationship with Barney Barnett. How did you know Barney? I first met Mr. Barnett. I was with the 333rd Bomb Group at Dalhart, Texas. At that time, Mr. Barnett was living in Muscara, New Mexico. I met him in late 1943. I was on a bond drive for this commander at

24:35 Dalhart, Texas. So you both were in the service together? Oh, we were not in the service together. He was a civilian working as a civil engineer at the state of New Mexico. Excellent. And what kind of relationship did the two of you have? Well, Barney didn't have any children. He'd raised a niece. He sort of took me under his thumb. And during the visits, he treated me just about like a son. So, pretty close relationship. Real close relationship. I understand around 1950, he told you a story about something that had happened sometime previous. Can you relate that story to us? Yes. Mr. Barnett told me that when he was coming back on one of his field trips, he'd run onto a flying saucer that had first opened. And there were four beings on the ground. And that he was surveying the site. And about that time, an archeological group from the University of Pennsylvania. There were about four or five people with

25:36 this group. As they were just starting to look things over really closely, the military moved in and give them a briefing to not say anything about it and to keep quiet. And that it was in the national interest that they get out of there. What was his feeling about what it was that he had experienced? He had no qualms about what it was. He said the vehicle from outer space wouldn't any question. The beings on there were nothing like, not exactly like human beings. Similar but not exactly. How did he describe them? He described them being about three and a half to four feet tall. Very slim in stature. And their heads were hairless. But no eyebrows, no eyelashes, no hair. And sort of a pear shaped head with the top of the head being smaller. Or larger I mean. Any other characteristics about their

26:37 appearance? Only one thing that he mentioned is the hands were not covered. They had four fingers. How were they dressed? They were dressed in some type of a type fitting suit. It looked like sort of a metallic but not metal and not nylon. And it fit to the body very closely tight. But they were not wearing any head piece at all. And I don't recall that he said anything about what they had on their feet. Were all of these beings dead when he found them? They were all dead and only a short distance from the craft. The craft had burst open. And they didn't, he said that they hadn't seen anybody inside. But they really hadn't had a chance to look. These were all outside of the craft. Quite close to the craft. But then not too many feet from the object. How did he describe the craft? Typical, I'm sorry. Disc shaped. And a pretty good size.

27:38 Not small. It was crafted. Look how it carried quite a few beings. And it wasn't one of these little small disks. Three quarters of the next place. It was probably a hundred feet. Big. Really? How did he describe the impact site, if at all? He said it had come to rest sort of on a, not a high bank, but sort of a ridge or a bank that had hit against the bank and had split there. But otherwise it was intact. Did he describe any other debris or wreckage besides? There was no, according to him, there was no wreckage or debris understrived. But what, did he give any description about the archeology team? Nothing except there was four or five people. And they were obviously there for a dig. And they had just come upon us just about, nearly simultaneously.

28:39 So he just arrived there and here they came. Any names of any of these individuals? He didn't have any names because the short period that they were there and by the time the Army rounded them up and told them to get out of there after they had briefed him. What? And not to say his son. He got him to speak up and headed back to his office. Did he ever tell this story to anybody else? He went back to his office and his boss, he started to tell them. And the boss told him, Barney, don't tell me anything about it. I don't want to hear about it. Just forget it. And he says, when I was told that, he had been told not to say anything. He said, I'm not going to have people think I'm crazy. He said, I never told anybody else until the time he told me about it. Did he ever experience any form of harassment from the government? They were harassing him on income taxes. And I know that one time I visited down there in 1950 and he was really nervous.

29:41 This was either the second or third time they had audited him. I can't understand why they would audit him because he didn't do any outside business. They had all his income from his job. What kind of man was Barney Barnett? Barney Barnett was a real private individual. He didn't smoke. He didn't drink. His family and himself were very private. They associated with people but not too much on a social basis. But he was very reliable, professional man. Lived a lot in the out-of-doors and knew the outdoors. Collected arrowheads. And he and I went on arrowhead hunts. We'd gone on pottery digs ourselves. He showed me how to rattlesnakes and operated how they struck and so on. We had a lot of time together because way out there in New Mexico when you're driving around, there's miles and miles and miles and there's nothing. So we had a lot of time to talk. But in all the time I knew Barney, he never told me a story.

30:42 I was never told any story of any kind about anything. So I believed anything that he would say was reliable. I could have had a lot more information but I didn't pump the information. At that time I was raising a family and busy in the military and doing things to do. And I could have got a lot more information from him, I'm sure. But it was one of those things that you think back. We hadn't had anybody in outer space. We hadn't had anybody in the moon. If we had progressed with this sort of thing, I might have been a little bit more interested in details. When he related this account, what did you think about the story? I had no doubts about it. Knowing his reliability, I had no doubts but it was real. And of course he said that he earned a secret seat. I was still in the Air Force, so I didn't go around blabbing this to everybody. As a matter of fact, I had no reason to

31:43 really bring it up to anybody. The first time it was brought up was when Dr. Friedenberg was in Bemidji. He gave a lecture on UFOs and gone. And I listened to this and I thought, you know, I wonder if I should relate this to him that they're doing his study and his stuff. It might be important to his studies. So as a matter of fact, I thought about it and then I left the auditorium. When it was cold out, it was late for me, I think. I walked about a half a block from there without saying anything. And I thought, well, maybe it's a good policy to come back and tell him. You know, I didn't feel comfortable not doing it. So then I walked back and talked to him. And a few days later, this Mr. Moore was near and he came over to my house and interviewed me about the details that I had. Have you experienced any repercussions from having shared this? None. I haven't had anybody harass me. Everybody that watched Unstoppable Mysteries

32:44 have had nothing but good comments. Most people believe these actually exist. And I don't really believe that I've had one bad comment. Or they intentionally didn't give your address. But I had calls from every province in Canada except the eastern ones from Florida, Texas. And the amount of people that had seen us, I was amazed. So you don't have any regrets about having divulged this story? I have no regrets about it. As a matter of fact, I could tell the same story a thousand times without changing it. Because I know it to be actual facts. I'm not about to alter anything. And I wouldn't accept one penny or one dime to make any statement. Because that would ruin the validity of what Mr. Barnett and in respect to him I wouldn't do it. As a former military man, what do you think our government should do now that this story is out? I can't see any reason why whatever information they have is not released.

33:44 I think any information or documents should be released. Because most of the public believes they exist anyhow. And I think the population now is better prepared to accept this thing than they would have been in 1947 right after World War II. There are probably reasons why they didn't want it released. I can't see any reason for not released. Anything that we've not covered that you want to talk about? Well, the only time that I had any occasion to possibly see a fine saucer, in 1940. We'd moved with the seventh bomb group, 11th bomb squatter. We'd moved off the coast because of the problems with an imminent war. So we'd move into Salt Lake City. And we're working out of the municipal airport out there. And just about, it was between 12 and 1 o'clock. There was a disk-like object that had come over Salt Lake City. It had come from the east over the Wasatch Mountains.

34:44 In the daytime it looked like the moon does if you see it in the daytime. And there was two pilots and I knew out there. I can't recall our names. And myself up there. And we run for B-17. And we immediately started, didn't run and prep for checks from other rooms. Taxi ran out to the runway and took off. And we chased it. I mean, there was no hope. It was just distances. And it could not possibly have been another airplane or balloon because the B-17 was about as fast a thing as it was in the market at the time. It came over from the east, right directly over the airfield. And then it went west. And when we took off, then it just about went at a real steep angle going to the northwest. It kept getting smaller and smaller until it was just like a little dot. Nothing that I know of could possibly climb that fast. And this was what year? 1940. And because it went overseas in 1941. It was in Hawaii on the 1st of December of

35:45 1941. I was quite familiar with airplanes. I'd always had an interest in aviation and that's coming into the air. So I had an idea of what they would do and could recognize the difference between something like that. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate all your time. Well, I hope it works out good. But it's basically what they were pretty accurate in trying to reconstruct. And they did film about 20, 30, 40 minutes. But they only used portion and they reconstructed some of the rest. Did you, uh, you were satisfied then with the dramatization part of it? Pretty much. But there were some details that would have changed. And of course it was impossible for them to know every detail. If I had been on their site, I could have told them some changes they could have made. Yeah. Like Barney wearing a pith helmet?

36:46 Yeah, wearing the pith helmet. Well, and another thing he had glasses. Uh-huh. When he opened his snake's mouth and the venom came up over his glasses. That's how I vividly remember him. I can picture in my mind the venom still streaming down his face and on his glasses. And he'd hit the glasses mostly. Uh-huh. Kind of a white foreman. Good thing he wore glasses I guess, huh? But that's the type of individual he was, an outdoorsman. Uh-huh. He knew the Southwest. He knew the outdoors. And he was, uh, the type of individual that didn't exaggerate on anything. We did a lot of things outdoors. And I know that New Mexico because I know what a vast, uninhabited area that place is. Yeah. That's why the group from New Mexico was kind of laughing. That's one of the things I was thinking about. Uh-huh. Because they know what you're talking about. Yeah, they know exactly. But I'd been through a good portion of the state and I'd lived there. Uh-huh. I lived in Clayton, New Mexico one day. Where are you living now? Still in Bemidji.

37:48 And I put in 21 years in the United States Air Force and retired from them. I put in 30 years with a VA in just about 30 years. So? I like working. And I'm interested in things. When I visit foreign countries and other places, I see everything. You know, I've got some mysteries. What the people are doing. They make a living. You know, I'm not one contented just to sit back and go and lay in the sun some morning or go to the beach, whatever. Yeah. I just like to get in the mainstream and think, I'm interested in what's going on in the world and out of this world, too. Oh. Yeah, obviously. Byrne, could I ask you to just sign this form for me? Well, the officers all left and we had some minor men. Mr. Porter, what were you doing in Roswell, New Mexico in July of 1947? I was a flight crew member. At the Army Air Base? Right. And what was your rank? I was a master sergeant. And what would normally be your duties as a flight crew member? I was a flight engineer. Engineer. Okay. And what sort of normal activities would you engage in? Well, I took care of the engines in flight

38:56 and weight and balance and fuel management. And did you log in a lot of hours in doing this? Right. What craft did you use when flies? It's a B-29. Exclusively? Yeah. Then. Alright. I understand that something rather unusual happened in July of 1947 at the base and you were involved in a flight. Yes, right. What happened that day that you recall? Well, we flew these pieces. They told us it was parts of the flag saucer and we flew from Roswell to Fort Worth. And we started out the totals going to Wright-Patterson in Ohio. And we got to Fort Worth and they transferred them to B-25 and took them on to Wright-Patterson. And what did you do then? Then we returned to Roswell. Okay. Who do you recall was on board that B-29 when you left Roswell?

39:58 Colonel Jennings was on board and Colonel Barrenclaw, Major Wunderlich and Major Marcel was the ones up front. And who was it who told you that these were pieces of a flying saucer? I don't remember just who it was, but it must have been Captain Henderson. Okay. What did you think when you heard that? Well, at first I'd heard a bunch of flying saucers. It didn't really mean a whole lot, I guess. No, it didn't. What was it that was actually loaded on board that you saw? Well, we had just packages and wrapping paper. Uh-huh. And one of them was triangle shaped, about two and a half feet across the bottom. And the rest were in smaller packages, about the shoebox size. Uh-huh. The triangle shape, is that an unusual kind

40:58 of package? It seemed to be, yes. And this was brown paper on the outside? Right, with tape. Uh-huh. And do you have, did you actually load this stuff? Yes. Right. What was your feeling when you- Well, just like I picked up an empty package. Is that right? Right. Very light. Uh, from feeling the package, did you have a sense of what it was that was underneath the brown paper wrapper? Not really. Just brown paper and tape? Mm-hmm. But very light. Right. And approximately how much of this stuff did you bring onto the B-29? It was the one triangle shape package and about three shoebox size packages. Oh. So it wasn't- Not very much. Okay. Uh, if uh, oh I don't know if we were to, can you give me an idea about what the volume of all of this would be? Well, it's- Did you put it in the, say, a back seat of a car or a trunk of a car? Yes. It was just small packages.

42:00 And you took a B-29? Was it necessary to take a B-29? Well, that was the transportation I guess. That's all you had. Right. Yeah. And, uh, what did the fellows talk about on the way to- Uh, there wasn't much talk. Uh, uh, they didn't talk back and forth very much. Yeah. Nothing about it. Would that, would that be unusual? Was there normally, uh, a lot of conversation between the- Well, this wasn't a regular crew, so that, uh- How, how is that? Why do you say it wasn't regular? Oh, we had, uh, officers from other squadrons in the plane. And, uh, uh, Colonel Jennings was the deputy, uh, base commander. And, uh, Major, uh, uh, Marcel's intelligence officer. Would it be unusual for them to be on such a car? Yes.

43:00 Oh, right. Okay. And you arrived at Fort Worth at Carswell? Right. And what, uh, what were your, what happened then? Well, we parked on the front, uh, uh, line, flight line. And, uh, Colonel Jennings told us to finish. We had some spark clips to change. And, uh, he said, uh, as soon as we got our maintenance done and a guard was posted, we could go eat lunch and come back then. Was there anything unusual about your arrival at Fort Worth? No. Uh, no. Uh, so you, you, you did your maintenance, then you went out to lunch? Right. And what happened after you got back? We came back and they moved the aircraft to the back flight line. Mm-hmm. And, uh, told us that they had transferred the material to a B-25 to go into Wright-Patterson. And that it was a weather balloon. And that was it. Mm-hmm. What did you think when you heard that? Well, I just thought that's what it was.

44:00 You accepted what you were told. Right. And then you flew back to Roswell? Uh, was there any conversation on the way back about that? No. Uh. How about after, after this, uh, episode? Was there any more? Uh, no. Nothing. Was it something that just wasn't talked about or did you feel that it shouldn't be talked about? Well, we just, we just thought it was wet and that was it. Okay. That was it. Um, did you have, uh, did you have, when did, when did you first share, or when were you asked about your involvement in this? In 1979, uh, uh, Stan Friedman called me in 1979. Uh-huh. And, uh, what did you, did you learn anything more about this than you had known before? Uh, not a whole lot, no. Uh, does it surprise you to know that, uh, Jesse Marcel at least said that it was not a weather balloon? Well, uh, not really.

45:00 Uh, I never thought much about that. Uh-huh. Uh, after all these years, what do you think it was? Uh, it wasn't a weather balloon. You're pretty sure of that? Right. Okay. That's because of what people said? Yes. Uh, you're, uh, you're out of the service. Uh, for a while now, I guess. Uh, 26, 27 years, I guess. Uh-huh. Uh, are you, are you getting a pension? Yes. Uh, have you gotten any kind of harassment or anything? None at all. For having talked about that? No. Do you have any regrets of not having talked about it? What do you think the government should do now about all this? Well, I think they should let the people know what's going on it. You'd like to know, I guess. Yes. So would we. Is there anything that we haven't talked

46:00 about that you'd like to say, Mr. Porter? No. Okay. As long as we got it all straight. Uh-huh. All right. Thank you very much. No, you're welcome. Mr. Porter, can I tell you a little bit about yourself? Where are you living now and what's been your profession over the past few years? Well, at present, I and my wife reside in Southern California in a small community called Spring Valley. In the neighborhood of San Diego. I think for our purposes, that's close enough. Uh-huh. And, uh, I practiced as a dentist in that region, uh, from about 1952 after my release from active duty after following the Korean police action. I think that's correctly noted. Uh-huh. And, uh, I met, uh, Pathy Henderson, uh, in the early mid-sixties.

47:05 The best of my recollection had been maybe 1962 or '63. Uh-huh. How did you happen to meet him or know him? Well, I was, uh, introduced to him by a mutual friend. And, uh, we were, uh, uh, of course, one of my, uh, other vocations other than dentistry has been a practice of, uh, of studying, uh, metallurgy. Uh-huh. And, uh, I think that's probably what got Pappy and I together. And as the years went along, I went into other ventures. I wound up actually joining one of his because it really proved to be interesting. And I described that fully at our meeting today. Uh-huh. And, uh, I don't know what else to say.

48:07 Uh, we gained a great deal of respect for each other. And, uh, I trusted, uh, his judgment as he did mine, I guess. Just, uh, it was a very nice relationship that we developed. And when did he tell you about something that occurred that was very unusual in 1947? Well, it was as near as I am able to tell. It would, would have been, and I think it might have been the, perhaps the 30th, uh, anniversary of that event. Uh-huh. Because it was right about that time of the, in the summer of 1978. Okay. And what was it that he related to you as to what, what had occurred? Well, and he, of course we will understand, we were in a public place, uh, where we met frequently. Uh-huh.

49:07 And, uh, but we did speak in, in quite, uh, in a great deal of privacy, let's say. And he, he told me about the Roswell incident. When that incident, uh, occurred, why, I happened to have been in a period of inactive duty in my naval service, and I was living in northern Minnesota. And I, I guess the, the, uh, the wire service never reached me. I was actually unaware of the Roswell incident that was casually mentioned in our newspapers, uh, perhaps as late as a month later. Who knows? But northern Minnesotans weren't too worried about what happened in Mexico. See? So, what, what did Pappy Anderson tell you happened? But, he said that he had an unusual, uh, job

50:07 to perform while he's, in his, uh, air force, uh, service. And, uh, that he transported wreckage and, uh, bodies of the alien people to, uh, Ohio. Uh-huh. It was that simple. And Jack was a man of few words, really. And, in our habit, the way we, uh, dealt and talked with each other, we really didn't waste much, uh, time. We said it, and that's that. There was nothing more to it. Did he describe any of the wreckage to you? Uh, not really at that time. It was just a, a smashed, uh, pile of, I guess, space wreckage. Spacecraft garbage. And the, uh, I guess some of the passengers

51:10 thereon, uh, suffered, uh, their death, of course. Uh, I really, uh, was more or less privileged to just be listening, so I, I refrained from asking a lot of questions. Um, but he did say that these people were, uh, small. And that, uh, there were quite a number of them. He never, uh, described the actual number to me. But since I've, uh, of course, been filled in somewhat, uh, I'm still not sure that there were, what they even claim now. There may have been a lot more. Uh, did he describe their appearance any further than saying they were small? Uh, not to me. Uh, I think he found that he, uh, kind of distasteful. I was pretty well tuned into Jack's, uh,

52:12 feelings, you know. And, uh, if something was bothering him, I, I'd be sort of aware of it very soon. Do you know what kind of craft you flew to Wright-Patterson? Uh, well, as a Navy man, I wasn't too familiar with what the Army Air Corps, later Air Force, uh, uh, you know. My experience with airplanes ended with the Taylor, uh, Kraft and Pipers and Aronka Sedans and things like that. Pre-World War II, uh, things that I flew. The rest of it was lost. But I, it was one of the B's, uh, B-29 perhaps. Did he, did he say what his takeoff point

53:13 was? Well, I assumed it was Roswell. He did not say to me where it was from. But that he did, he did say that he was going to Wright-Patterson. Yep. That's what he did say. And he said that the remains were there. And, uh, he said very likely in a frozen state. Uh, which would lead me to believe that, uh, that being the case, that autopsy work was being planned. And I would have undoubtedly been performed. So. Did he relate any information following this flight that would shed some light on what the wreckage or the bodies were all about? No, uh, it was perhaps, uh, oh, a year later. And we were meeting again under, uh, about the same circumstances. We decided to have a game of pool and, and when, uh, we had a little break in our game, so I, uh, he produced this, uh, piece of

54:16 metal for me to look at. He said, "What do, what do I think of it?" I said, "Well, it's, it's different." And I felt it, and it did feel different, and I studied it some. I was able to determine that it's, uh, the metal structure was, uh, different than alloys like we have in our aircraft, for instance. And, of course, he did, uh, uh, preface his, uh, question, uh, by stating this was from this, uh, craft. Apparently, uh, I think it was a case of, uh, appropriation that he acquired this, you know, for future study, perhaps. Um, at any rate, uh, I, I gave it a good thorough looking at it and decided that it was, uh, an alloy that we are, are not used

55:22 to, or we have not, we don't think we do, but there is a possibility we may be able to, uh, come up with something like it. And what do you, it's a very big roundabout statement. I understand. How about, how about describing it for me? What did it look like, feel like? Well, it was, uh, a lustrous, uh, a gray lustrous metal that, uh, resembled aluminum. It was, uh, lighter in weight and much stiffer. Uh, if you're familiar with aluminum alloys like ST, what, 37? It's a very stiff, tough aluminum. Well, this was harder and stiffer than that. Could you bend it? No. Not, and I didn't want to try. The edges were pretty sharp. And, uh, and Jack didn't want to, uh, let it out of his, uh, personal, uh, ownership, you know. So, I couldn't take it into my lab and do

56:23 some testing on it, which I really would like to have. Number one, I'd like to have found out what it would take to, uh, machine it. In other words, uh, machine its language to mill it. I've, that decision came out as a result of our having made an alloy similar to it, which, uh, up to this point, no one's been able to, uh, scratch it, so to speak. But that's kind of beside the point. But I think this is one of the reasons that Jack, uh, showed me this piece. Because our association had gone on quite a few years and they trusted me, and, uh, and I didn't tell anybody about it. Uh, I think this is my first discussion for the meeting as of this state. Publicly. Um, what did he do with this, with this piece of metal?

57:25 He put it in his pocket and that's the last I've seen of it. Um, it's probably in his personal effects somewhere. Um, his wife, uh, states that, uh, there's many boxes of his things, uh, that she has gone through or opened or looked at. So, it could be, it could be that, uh, that piece is there. And I'd certainly recognize it if it were. My feeling was that, uh, the metal itself was, uh, not, it didn't have a, a crystal, uh, lattice structure like, uh, alloys that we make. It was more of an amorphous form. And that the, the fractures of the edges were more like fractures rather than tears. And they, uh, as I recall, a, they had a, uh,

58:26 conchoidal appearance. Like, uh, plate glass or bottle glass, for instance, what they had if you break it. Mm-hmm. Smooth, concave shapes with real sharp edges. What's significant about that, if anything? Well, it indicates that it's not crystalline. Which, uh, may have a lot to do with, uh, its physical, uh, properties. Perhaps in flight, or resistance to, to heat. Like entrance and exit. I know we're using, uh, non-metallic materials, like, uh, a little steatite to, uh, coat our, uh, our, uh, shuttles with and so on to absorb the heat. This apparently didn't need that. Interesting. So would, would your, as, with your background, uh, your knowledge of metallurgy,

59:28 would you think that this was something that would have been, uh, easily manufactured using technology available at the time you saw this material? Well, I don't, I don't think it's been easy for us to do, no. Uh, I think we're looking at, uh, pretty high temperatures and smelling, for one thing. I think now, uh, perhaps it would be easier. And, uh, they have, uh, refractories, for instance, have changed. Like, you know, furnaces or smellers. Uh, they, they're able to tolerate better temperature, higher temperatures. And, uh, well then we have more, let's say, more, uh, sophisticated, uh, temperature control. Uh, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on here.

1:02:03 What is your own belief about what this fragment was from? What did it represent? Well, I think it was one of the structural parts. Not the, not the thinner materials. I know that Jack himself, well he stated to me as far as the thin materials go that that was the lining of the graphs. And that when properly energized, it produced perfect illumination inside. That you had a total easy light with no shadows. But that's why I asked today this gentleman that, I think it was Jesse, that had his hands on some of that thin material if he had seen it in the dark. Right. I guess he hadn't, or hadn't paid any attention to it. He's pretty young then anyway, so.

1:03:03 That would be kind of interesting to see if it could be energized or polarized maybe is all it would need to be. It's hard to say. Take a little scientist and maybe one of our physicist friends could tackle that and light the place up with a piece of that, you know. It's fairly possible. So. What do you think this was from, though? I mean, what was this thing that has recovered? Yeah. Well, I think that metal, that thin material was different. I didn't see any of it, but from what I'd seen in the pictures and so on, I don't think that's the same metal. Is it your feeling that this was from an extraterrestrial spacecraft? Oh, yes. Well, there's no question in my mind about that. The one craft that crashed and was, as they

1:04:06 said, was just split open. The color of it, the way it looked on that photo, is about the way that piece that I had to look at looked. I'm sorry, which photo were we talking about here? Well, whether it was a drawing or a painting or a reconstruction, I don't really know. Well, it was here today that I saw that. But that's more or less what it looked like. Slightly mistreated, maybe, you know, by temperatures. No doubt in your mind, though, that this was from outer space? I have no question about whether it was from outer space. If you're interested in my thinking on that, no matter why, I don't think we have a

1:05:11 franchise on being the only good guys and/or bad guys either, for that matter, in the universe. Obviously, this was something that was considered to be highly secret. Pappy Henderson would have shared this with you without a foundation of trust. Pappy Henderson: Right. Well, he asked me to observe the protocol to not mention it, which I didn't. I was kind of surprised to find that he had taken a couple of other people into his confidence. One of which was Bill, who was here today. Also, there is another one that we discovered. This is one of our naval helicopter pilots who is retired now and was aware of what Pappy had seen. He was pretty choosy about who he talked to,

1:06:11 I think. Did he express any feelings about the secrecy aspect or why it was that he wanted to share this information? Well, Jack had become ill with adenocarcinoma and I would guess that he probably wanted to leave it. I think Bill Woundsbury expressed that notion. I think he wanted to leave it just in case he did die, which has worked out he did. He had great hopes that he would be given a ride and it probably would have occurred by now. It seemed like he had it sort of set up in some way, beyond my knowledge of his

1:07:11 activity. But, you know, you take the case at Switzerland event and the Palladian arrivals there. In fact, all the footage that was made of those spacecraft. And, which incidentally, I've seen some of the film on that. And it greatly resembles the Channel 13, if that's the right channel in L.A., that photograph, the two that flew over just in, it's either in Anaheim or Orange. They just came in and made a swooping in and out. And someone just happened to be taking some pictures sent and managed to pull it in action. And the films proved to be genuine.

1:08:12 And those looked, for all the world, exactly like the ones in Switzerland. Yeah, Pappy made a great effort to apprise me of what all that Swiss thing was about. In fact, he spent quite a bit of money on books for me and things of that nature. Some of which involved some of our own military where they were doing intensive study to verify the authenticity of these Swiss landings. And they, I think, to a man on these panels concluded that they were real. And all the school children over there, I've seen pictures in movies of those people. You can't have 38 kids all give you the same story usually on anything.

1:09:14 But on this one issue, boy, there was no question about it. Plus, the description of the squadron commander in that case was a lady. And she, her squadron was three. And she described her craft and allowed him to photograph it. As far as this metal fragment is concerned, do you have any idea where it is now, today? No. I don't. I think if it's anywhere, it would be in his personal effects. It was pretty traumatic when Jack died. At that time, her daughter's mother-in-law was very ill. And so, they just packed Saffo up out of her apartment and moved her to L.A. to help take

1:10:15 care of this old lady. So, and I think as Saffo said, if it's anywhere, it's in some of the old boxes they haven't even opened yet. So, I'm going to look into that when I return. See if I can maybe convince her to go ahead. You very much want to know what the result of that was. Well, well, if I get it, it will head right straight from my safety deposit box and then I'll get it on the telephone. And I won't tell them which bank it's in without that to kidnap me. Well, thank you, Dr. Crumshaw. I appreciate it. You're very welcome. I'm hopeful that I strengthen your thinking in some ways. It's sort of a bit illuminating. Well, if I find that medal, I'll send it back here. And I should know, I think there was one

1:11:15 gentleman, maybe I can recognize his name. Somebody on our board? Oh, David Schwartzman, I betcha. Yeah. He's a geologist at Howard University. Okay. And I thought he'd be the one that, he seemed to be the most interested in that piece of metal and also in the smelling techniques that were developed. I bet you know about that stuff. Yeah. Well, he really got a kick out of what I told him about our misfiring, trying to cut that at John Hopkins University. I mean, Stanford University. And one of our government facilities, I think, has a unit there that this button that was made went to for cutting an analysis. Well, they couldn't cut it. And they sent it back. They had a few scratches and that's it. And they broke every metronome metal blade they had in that lab. They gave up on it.

1:12:16 And this was of what? A test of tests? Well, we think it's a similar one. Uh-huh. And that was why Jack got me involved. Oh, is that right? Yeah. So that's really -- and it goes way back. How did you hear about this test at Stanford? Well, I didn't know when I sent it to him. Oh. See, I'm into it that far, you know? So you got this piece of metal or something? Yeah. From whom? The button that went to Stanford. Right. I made it. Oh, okay. This is a fabricated thing, not something. Okay. I want to make sure I understand that. Dr. Crunchwater, can I get you to sign that for me? Sure. You can read it first if you want. We'll be right back.