Rendlesham Forest UFO sighting: Eyewitness Colonel Charles Halt

0:00 roll back 44 years to a forest in Suffolk, England, known as the Rendlesham Forest. It's a very cold December night, 1980, and on that night two airmen doing security work at the adjacent RAAF Bent Waters Base, a base largely controlled by the Americans, a nuclear base with nuclear weapons. They're on patrol, and they're sent into the forest to investigate some kind of object that's been seen to land in the adjacent Rendlesham Forest. What they see that night becomes one of the most compelling UAP military sightings. Mysteries of all time, anywhere in the world. It was very well recorded because the deputy base commander of the base, Colonel Charles Halt, had the presence of mind to do a memo which recorded exactly what he saw two nights later, when yet again, another unidentified object

1:00 was seen to land in the Rendlesham Forest, and he and his patrol witnessed something quite extraordinary, and he was so compelled to report what he saw, he wrote down in a memo, found its way into the British military archives, and that was miraculously, eventually declassified. I interviewed Colonel Halt in April 2009 for channel seven Australia, and what he told me stunned me. He was a man, one rank below a general, revealing what he believed was a conspiracy by the US military and the British military to conceal what was clearly some kind of intelligently controlled, highly technologically advanced object moving through a forest immediately adjacent to a base crammed full of dangerous nuclear weapons. Why on earth would the Americans and the British want to suppress such an incident? There's a great story told by an author called Georgia Bruny,

2:04 and she tells of how she met the British prime minister at the time, Margaret Thatcher, and she asked her about the Rendlesham Forest incident. What happened? She asked. The Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, leaned across to her at a dinner party and said, you can't tell the people. Well, 44 years on. So that's nearly half a century on. We still don't know what really happened in the Rendlesham Forest. But Colonel Charles Halt's account is one of the most compelling. And here it is in its entirety, what I recorded 15 years ago. So forgive the loss of here, since this is what Charles Holt told me in 2009. I find it compelling, and I hope you do too. Colonel, take me back to 1980 Revolution. What was your role in areas before? In 1980, I was assigned to area waters. Actually, the twin bass complex, we call it that.

3:06 Waters Woodbridge is a deputy base commander. The base commander cut ribbons, kissed babies, shook hands, and did the public relations and so forth and set the policy. That was my job to see that it was all properly administered, and that all the various functions in the base work properly. And your background in the previous years in the Air Force, give us an idea of your CV, your your resume as an officer. Well, I had a master's degree in business management, an undergraduate degree in economics and chemistry. I'd been in the Air Force at that time, approximately 18 years. I'd worked, just about every imaginable job. In fact, prior to that, I'd been in the Pentagon on special assignment. So you were a respected senior officer in the U.S. Air Force? I would like to think so. Up until that point, had you ever been criticized adversely, the subject of any hostility from inside the military in, in a way that reflected on your capacity to do your job as an officer? No. None whatsoever. So tell me what happened.

4:06 Actually, what happened was I normally, in the course of my job would go about interfacing with the various squadrons and agencies on the base, quite often on the way to work in the morning, I would leave the board and I would go by the police station and talk to the desk Sergeant Asada being the gentleman who was behind the desk to them, the police blotter, the chronological listing of what happened and kind of dispatch the police, etc. and I would normally collect the police blotters and bring them up to the office, and my boss and I would just glance through them to see if anything had happened to previous night that we did all about, or we needed to take any action. On that particular morning in question, I walked into the police station and I knew the desk sergeant well because he'd been there for at least a year. Maybe, it was crash McCabe. And I said, don't start. McCabe. What's going on? He started laughing. Well, that was been unusual. So? So what's so funny? He said, well, Burrows and Cabana, sack and pest. And we're out in the woods chasing UFOs all night last night. And, the lieutenant said, don't put anything in the blotter. I said, UFO. That was quite interesting. What do you mean? What did they say?

5:07 He said, well, I don't know, he said, but lights, I know that. I said, well, we've got to put something on the blotter you need to document if for was activity and they were out in the woods off the base. So he put something in the fact that they saw lights or did some such thing. I didn't give it too much thought. I thought it was an explanation. I collected the blotter since we've come up with the office. We looked at him. We kind of have a chuckle. Man, I'm sure there's something to this. Can I ask you to serve the stuff before this incident, had you ever, in your time have been would have been alerted to similar types of sightings? No, no. So what happened next? later. That day, it became apparent that there was an awful lot of how she would say, gossip talk amongst the security police that there were UFOs in the woods, etc., etc. and there was some concern that, our police people, primarily the police, were being distracted from their primary mission. this continued to build for the next day or two, and two nights later we were having the end of the year banquet recognition dinner for various people in the combat support group.

6:07 In other words, recognizing people for their accomplishments or achievements and longevity, whatever. And it was a family affair, was covered in dinner, and we had some some nice meal, and we just finished dinner and getting ready for dessert when the on duty flight lieutenant security police squadron came in white as a sheep and he said, I've got to see you too. Right now. It's important. And so we went into the cloak room. It was the only private place in the little building we were in, and he said, it's back. What's back? He said the UFO was back on the base. Commander and I looked at each other in disbelief and he said, to what? What did you say, Bruce? And he said he saw something out in the forest. We can't explain. So, okay, so the base commander had to make the presentation. So he said, you go out and put this thing, the rest find out what's going on. So he attended to the rest of the function that evening, and I went home and change clothes prior to leaving. And I talked to a security police commander and said, I want one of your senior people to go with me. And I talked to the disaster preparedness

7:08 officer and I said, who's your standby person? And they told me it was Sir Neville. So I said, call sergeant levels and have meet me at the office. I want him to bring his camera and to pick up an AP and 27. I took those things along just to disprove all this stuff. Well, he's an IPA twice, 1827, is a military agriculture, in essence, that you say you went in with the intention of trying to disprove. Were you as a natural skeptic about I was a skeptic. I was going to show there was no radiation. There's nothing we you know, I was to take pictures, there's nothing there. And we're going to put this all to rest and get on with business. So what did you find? Well, when we got out to the forest, they picked me up in a jeep, and I collect the Sergeant Neville center and the Geiger counter, if you will, in the camera. And four of us rode across the base and at the back gate event Waters and Woodbridge cross Woodbridge base, we went to the east gate at the east gate, and they're out in the forest on US Forest Service Road. We're 3 or 4 and it's all Nrf2. Light off switch are motor generators with big lights on top, sort of like you see at a construction site.

8:09 You'd asked for these to be brought up? No, I didn't ask for anything to be brought on. I was very concerned because we were probably 20 or 30 security policemen. I don't think we are in the Queen's Forest in the middle, and I really trespassing. We don't belong out here. There's something strange going on. I was quite concerned that we would be embarrassed by this whole incident. So we brought those light generators up. Apparently the flight commander from the security police squadron, and he had this whole crew of people out there, and I was extremely concerned. And they had a a Starlight scope first generation, very primitive compared to today's standard. It's a nice night vision. Scope. Yes, big scope, because we used them in the weapon storage area to account for power. So what happened next? They said look into the forest there. That certain area has a dull glow to it. So I looked in and through the greenish yellow tent in the starlight scope, I could see an area that was brightly illuminated compared to the other areas, so that that's where the object was. What object was the one that passed in burrows? And a second scene two nights earlier. So we put the scope down

9:09 and we went into the forest, and they took me to a site that they said they identified as this is where the object supposedly had landed, or whatever, two nights prior. So I said, well, careful, don't step in the indentations. There were three indentations equal distance apart. And we looked at them, we marked them. And at that time I was using my little in-ear cassette recorder because I normally carried it in my pocket anyhow. And when I went around to base and just take notes, it's just having to carry a pencil and paper or a notebook. So I made some notes and we were there examining, and Sergeant Nevilles was taking readings for the AP and 27 of the Geiger counter and just take me through very slowly. Let's talk first about the indentations. Why are you so sure that those markings are indentations? Why aren't they what some of the skeptics said with rabbit holes or animal marks? Well, that the soil there was hard packed sand with pine needles and some pine bark. The indentations were about that deep and about that big around. We measured them. They were all equal distance apart in this area.

10:10 In between, the center formed by this triangle was a bit scraped up. So it gave you the impression of being a very recently formed. Yes, definitely. And it had been a rabbit hole. No, they weren't holes. They were just nice smooth indentations. All you'd be familiar with the claims of the local groundskeeper, the gamekeeper that Mr. 13 that, in some way that they might have been explained away as just a single animal hold a hens nesting rabbits burrowing. Well, it'd be interesting to see a rabbit burrow that way. Rabbits make holes. They certainly do. And hens do nest. the odds of making a perfectly symmetrical triangle. Because we did measure them. They weren't all equal distance apart. It was perfectly placed. Now, is it possible that this was an elaborate hoax, whereas the Christmas period might be a few bucks and having a few drinks, could the whole thing be an elaborate tactical job? Well, up until that point, I was thinking there had to be a logical explanation, not necessarily a joke. I did find out later that one of the security policemen

11:14 concocted a bogus landing site near the one that I was taken to. This was done a day or two later. I'm told I didn't go there. I don't know, but there was definitely something there. And we find radiation by ten times normal background radiation. So you're quite sure that it was anomalous levels of radiation? Yes, definitely. Abnormal levels of radiation. Not high enough at that point to have been dangerous. Now you're a trained military. Obviously, you're aware of what anomalous background radiation, even though your detectors, I understand, were not entirely appropriate for that kind of mission. Are you confident that it was more than background levels? Definitely. Because I had been through the Air Force Disaster Preparedness school and spent quite a quite a bit of time in the classroom and actual practical experience using that very instrument and similar instruments and, you know, calculate wind speeds, drift and radiation patterns. And so you've had training in how to use. Right? Yes, yes. Meters. Yes. And you can be sure that the levels of radiation you were witnessing

12:17 were above normal levels. In addition, I'd had an extensive background in physics in high school and college. Okay. We're standing in the clear. You're looking at the indentations. What else do you say? We saw marks on the trees. It could have been blaze marks. I'm told they could have been broad marks. I don't know, but one thing was interesting is if you would look up from the side directly above it was a heavy canopy of pine branches, but it was completely cleared directly over that side. So it looked as if something had it looked as if something to come down. And I still was very, very skeptical and convinced at that point that there had to be a good explanation that this something could have happened. But can I check this point with you, sir? One assertion that I've read is that there were higher radiation readings on the sides of the trees where the branches were. That that is correct. On the side of the trees facing the triangle formed by the three indentations. And that is confirmed by the type, the audio tape that. Yes, it's it's on the tape too. Right. Whilst you were making your recollections on the audio tape,

13:20 as with those kinds of dictaphone, your stopping and starting. Sure. Certainly. Because I only had 30 minutes of tape, I didn't know how long we were going to be out there and it was very common. I would talk, turn it off, turn it off. So just to be clear, whereas some people have written that there appears to be errors in your tape, what that is, is it is you turning the recording button on and off. Is that correct? That's correct. And that's entirely consistent with that type of dictaphone. Yes. Right. So even when I used it in the office, that's what I do. If I would dictate a letter I would pick that up, I would talk a little bit and I would either collect my thoughts or maybe do some research or make a telephone call or something and flick it back on and finish the correspondence. And when I would get done, I would give the little micro cassette to the secretary and she would type up right before we go on to what happened next, pick me a word picture of the type of what we see. Is this a foggy night? Is it a clear night? No, this is very clear. Cold night. Temperatures were just above freezing. There was a light breeze coming off.

14:21 The coast was extremely cold. I had a heavy fuel jacket on and I was, I was cold. I had a pair of gloves too. Now it's a different device. Commander, you obviously know about the nearby lighthouse with a flashing beacon. Are you aware at this stage where the lighthouse is? Well, certainly. I'd been outdoor Orford Ness many times. Where that lighthouse sits on an island of Norfolk. And yes, I'm very familiar with it. So when you saw something later in the evening, were you aware that you were distinguishing whatever it was that you were seeing from the lighthouse? Yes. Very clearly. What did the lighthouse look like? The lighthouse was a flashing beacon, a rotating beacon. That was a whitish. Yeah, whitish yellow light. Whereas the object I saw was bright orangish red like fire. Well, let's go to that object now, The first thing I saw out of the ordinary. We were standing at the site measuring and taking radiation readings. I'm trying to ascertain this thing. What was it? You know what had happened here when I looked up and looked

15:23 through the forest, toward the coast and saw a glowing object, I can best describe it as looking something like an eye with a black center. The object at first initially was very stable still, but it was the equivalent of dripping molten metal. Something was shedding off and drifting onto the ground. presumably you looked underneath the object subsequently. Was there anything on the ground? No, I looked later because the object was out in the field. Keep in mind, we were in the forest at this time. One thing that really concerned me is it was a farmer's house out there. the object was between us and the farmer's house, and the reflection from the object was like that. Just like a burning, blazing fire in farmer's house. I was quite concerned because it wasn't too far from the house, and I thought I was concerned about the safety of the people in the house. Just for my reflection, did you find out subsequently whether they were people in the house that, no, we don't know. I didn't knock on the door. Keep in mind, this is to our wee hours of the morning.

16:24 Here we are, military uniform, you know, in a foreign country, even though it's a very friendly foreign country, I made everybody stay as quiet as possible. We've tried to do this as low profile as possible. We didn't want to draw attention to us just to explain, for the purposes of our viewers understanding, as I understand it, you as the base commander, had pretty much autonomy control over the American base. What were the rules of that feature of the base? We didn't go off the base with weapons except under certain circumstances, and we could track buy weapons. I'm talking about a sidearm or an M16 between the two bases and what we did, we had constant radio contact and had a patrol, escort, etc. we were very sensitive about moving any weapons in, you know, the British territory. we would normally call for British PC support or ask them to investigate anything off the base unless it were a threat to the aircraft or the system. Now, why did you do that that night? Why didn't you just call the British police? Well, by the time I got involved, the. Our people were already out there.

17:24 You know, it was one of those things that you're beyond the point of return. And I was told that the PCs had no interest and that they had come earlier and said, oh, it's nothing but chickens and hens. That's before we go into the details of what you saw. The light was too big. I think the generator power. Yeah. And afterwards we called them. It's nothing but a gasoline engine, four cycle gasoline engine, a generator and two big lights that were they function? No, they were having great difficulties with them. They wouldn't operate properly. They kept cutting off. And there was some chatter that, you know, the individual was supposed to fuel them before they come out, didn't do the proper job, didn't fill them up with fuel. However, I heard conversation then that yes, they had and they checked them. There was fuel with. Were you ever able to resolve what was that those lights were there? No, because I didn't pay much attention to the lights. I was more concerned to put this thing to rest, get everybody back on a base as fast as possible. Now, you were also, as I understand, the cost of walkie talkie communication with the guys, with those walkie talkie, the. Yes, to a certain extent, we actually had I had,

18:24 three security policemen with me and Saad Nevilles. The policemen were on two different frequencies security frequency, law enforcement frequency, and I was on a command post network. So there were three different frequencies. we we had constant interference on the radios. Was there any explanation for the interference? Have you ever had interference like that before? Well, I've had, drop signals, but I know, but normally I didn't go out into the forest with them. Normally, I operated on the base, and there were a few spots on the base where if you went into the command post, which was a hard shoulder with a lot of concrete, they obviously wouldn't work with an external antenna. But if it's your position, right, to the light, the generator lights and also the walkie talkies were behaving oddly. They were behaving very irrationally. I guess the best way to put it infrequently did you notice anything about the local animals? I understand that they were animals, yes. In fact, that's on my tape. At one point we heard the animals go, how shall I say, highly, excited in the frenzy? Almost. When you say highly exotic. What do you mean?

19:25 Well, they're ballerinas and crowing and making unusual noises. So they were agitated. When did you first see the Soviets take me back to when we were standing at the location of three indentations, making notes and taking readings and trying to decide what to do and what we had there. And we marked the position one, two, three and were wandering around and looking for any other evidence of anything, something I noticed or somebody I don't remember who noticed the object, the glowing object out in the field. Oh, probably 150 or 200m. Maybe a little bit more than that. Well, at first I didn't know what it was, and it was fairly stationary. And I was thinking perhaps there's some type of, you know, reflection off the clouds or some such thing with the clouds. No, there were no clouds. That's the interesting thing I was trying to I was looking around,

20:26 trying to find an explanation, already thinking, this is, this is very unusual. But when the object started moving toward us, move forward, forward from the field into the forest where probably 75 or 100m back in the forest, at this point, it's moving like this through the trees, going up and down, avoiding the trees, even avoiding the trees. You're under the clear impression that this object was intelligently moving definitely is under some type of intelligent control. So it had to be because or some way to avoid the trees. Then it came toward us at one point started toward us, and then it receded. It went away. It went back out into the field and stayed out into the field for, I don't know, maybe 1020 30s and silently it went exploded into white objects. They just disappeared. How big was the object? The best way I can describe it is probably about the size of a football. Maybe a little larger. Been could have been bigger than that. It's hard to tell because you couldn't see a clear shape.

21:26 You could see the light and you described a light, but you also described something that looked like an eye. The center, I said, it's red, say this big that had a black center. That's why I say like an eye when the black center, would sort of like, wink a little bit. Actually, while we were out in the field, we went out into the field after the object disappeared, and we're searching around with our flashlights or torches, as you call them, looking for some evidence, because obviously something was dripping off this object or appeared to be. And I thought, there has to be some some slag, some residue or something on the ground or some burn marks or something. And the only thing we found as evidence had been cattle there. We didn't find anything at all. And while we're out there searching around, we saw objects in the sky to the north. What were they? They were bright objects. They were. They changed shape from half moon to elliptical to softball circles. How far away with that? probably, oh, several miles up and up, about 30 degrees.

22:29 At that point, I called back on the radio to the command post and gave them an area to look at and said, call Eastern radar. Eastman radar had air defense for that sector and have them, you know, focus our radar and see what they can find in this area and see if they can find anything. And they came back and said they couldn't find anything. Okay. The objects at this stage that you're describing are at a considerable distance. What height would that be? Oh, probably several thousand feet, maybe. Maybe 4 or 5000ft, maybe a little higher. What speeds? With a very high speed. And it's interesting. They were sort of synchronized. They would move in sharp, angular movements as though they were doing a grid search or something. That's the only way I can equate it. It didn't make any sense to me, and I'm very puzzled at this point. Then we turned on somebody saw one to the south and then another one to the south. The one to the south that was closest to us came almost directly overhead at very high speed and stopped. And it was stationary. How far above you was it?

23:30 Several thousand feet. Probably at least 1000ft, maybe more. Again? What are we seeing? I'm just seeing a bright light. What color was it? It was white. What happens? We're standing there at all. And all of a sudden a beam came down right to the side of us. Now, that was an interesting beam. It was concentrated. It did not radiate. It came down like this. Sort of like a laser, I would say today, in those days, I, you know, wasn't that familiar with lasers. I mean, I knew of them, but they weren't very common. And the object illuminated a spot on the ground about 10 or 12ft away. And we were stood there and off at that point. And I'm thinking, is this a warning? Is this communication? Is this what is this you know, what do we do now? It just as abruptly as it came on. Click it off. It's quite clear from what you're saying that you believe that that object was intelligently guided. Definitely. Why do you say that? Because how else would it be controlled? And then turn a beam on and focus near us

24:30 at the same time that the other object was sending down beams and according to the radio correspond or communication that the lights the other object was sending beams down near our weapons storage area. So explain what was the object doing? Just sending down a beam of light? No. Was it probing? I don't know what it was doing I mean, have you ever seen anything within the technology of the United States or British military that could explain what you saw that night? No. Is there? No. I've seen laser technology at a later date. That's very interesting. Did that explain what you saw that then? Well, I just equate it to a laser because that's because it didn't radiate. That's the only reason I say that Well, from the speeds that you saw, could a human being have survived any movements in such a craft? No, I don't believe so. The force of gravity would have been just too great. So the the type of movement that you saw defied inertia, I understand. Yes. For a normal person, yes. After, after eight, 9 or 10 GS, people have serious problems.

25:34 I've experienced that. I can tell you your vision goes, everything goes. So the object that was above you at 1000ft, was that still the size of the football sized object? You'd seen it before? I could say it probably. I can't tell for sure. It was a big, bright spot where all of the objects that you saw as a consistent source around the football size that you described, probably, I can't say for sure, because the ones we saw out of the North were pretty far away. What's happening on the radio? Are you reporting back to the base of the stuff? What you're saying? Yes. Intermittently. As something happens or as I have a requirement, I'm calling back to the command post. It was all on the tape at the command post. And How many witnesses were there to what you saw that night? The five of us that are out in the field at that point. Now, the people that are behind us probably saw it too. I can't say for sure. I did, never went back and asked every one of them. I don't even know who they all worked for, sure. But crucially, this is an incident that's witnessed by maybe a dozen people,

26:39 probably a total of 30 or 40 people. And we're all of their accounts reasonably consistent about what they saw that. No. Yes. In fact, that later I found out that the tire operator at the at the bent water say that's the control tire inside the weapon storage area on duty. Saw things, too. And a communications man was up there working on the communications equipment. And he also saw the lights. Could it have been some kind of Soviet spy technology? I don't think they had any technology. It was that far beyond anything we had at that time. Have you seen anything in any realm of human technology that explains what you saw that night? No, nothing. I'd certainly like some answers. And you clearly believe that what you saw was. Intelligent or intelligently controlled? Yes. So you're quite sure that what you saw wasn't a natural phenomenon?

27:40 No, definitely was not a natural phenomenon. Let's address what the skeptics would say. The skeptics would say that all of you went out into the forest with the if you like, programing of what you heard around the base of what had been seen the previous two nights previously. I put it to you that what you and your men did was, as the psychologists say, you completed the bottom up information. With top down information, you filled in the patterns that you could see and your mind played tricks with itself. I don't believe that. Keep in mind, there's a large group of people, people that are very skeptical. Bobby Ball that was with me was very skeptical of the whole thing, so. Nevils was skeptical of the whole thing. Now, Bruce England, who was with us, had been out there earlier that evening and obviously had some things implanted in his mind and probably did have some, some issues to deal with.

28:42 But, and we were talking to people on three different radio nets at three different locations. And the people in the USA are saying things. So you're an open minded fellow country. Your goodness. Yes. So I've never said I saw a UFO. I hate to use that term because of the what a connotation. I saw a lot of things I couldn't explain that might. What do you think it was? It was something under intelligent control, I don't know, I would like to have answers. We still. I was very concerned. In fact, I had a friend take the tape. I did a small tape and do voice stress analysis on it. John, in the name of Chuck DeCarlo, had been done by the folks at, did the Watergate tapes, for instance, and he said the stress level was extremely high at certain points on the tape. Was your heart rate up? Yes, definitely. No. We did not cower down and run when we saw the objects in the field. Somebody said at one point, were you and your car were down and you ran. I was very concerned, but I said we had an obligation. We need to go forward and find out what this is.

29:43 Did you have a feeling about it? It was intelligent, whether it was hostile, frankly, no. I, I was kind of neutral. Except when the beam came down, I thought, here's certain this could be certainly a weapon or something hostile or some type of a warning. Okay. What happened after the point when the the object shone the beam down in front of you, then the object moved away. The objects that were in the north stayed in the sky. We at that point were very tired. Wet, cold winds, stumbled through a stream across from the farmer's field and gotten all wet. And it was a miserable night. It was getting very early in the morning and we went back to the base. We were talking about what you'd see. There was great concern that we should even say anything about what we'd seen, but we had no choice because we talked on the radio to three different control centers. So in other words, the word was out. We were out in the woods. We'd seen something unusual and quite couldn't explain it. So it was obviously, you know, in public domain. I guess the best way to put it one was the concern about whether you should even talk about what you'd say.

30:47 Well, there's a stigma that goes with this sort of thing. It's it's difficult under understand, unless you've been, I guess, a victim or participant, if you will. Have you often regret it since this is sort of ever speaking about well, when the tape or when the memo actually became somewhat common, knowledge in the Air Force is going to release it. I asked them not to. In fact, I specifically asked the third or acting third Air Force commander at that time who I knew well to destroy it. Do not release it, because I said my life and yours won't be the same. And I don't need any more of this. Let's go back, though, to the investigation that you did. What did you decide to do after that night? After that night, I reported it. I ran into my boss the following morning in the foyer of the office, and he had heard enough of the conversation on the radio between the command post and I, and they obviously had called him. Once all this started and I came in and all the senior officers were listening in on the radio, I can tell you, he asked me for that. He asked me to describe what happened. I walked in through the hallway scenario and he said, May I have the tape?

31:51 I gave him the tape. He took the tape to the third or fourth staff meeting the following Wednesday and played it for the staff, including General Beasley. And general basically was the commander led forces, third Air Force commander at that time and England. So very senior officer. Yes. And he asked the staff for their response what to do. And I guess the staff was silent. And so his response, according to my boss, was that, well, it happened off the base that the British should take care of it. So when he brought the tape back and gave it back to me, I said, well, what do I do? He kind of laugh, sort of like, you know, I don't want to keep this away from me. And nobody wanted near. He said, get with Squadron Leader Morgan, who was the liaison officer from the RAAF, who, by the way, was on holiday in Wales at that time. Get with him, see what he wants to do and make a report. So I waited till he came back and he and I talked and he was quite alarmed. He contacted his superiors and I said, well, give us a memo. So I wrote the infamous memo, gave it to him.

32:51 I thought that would be the end of it. I really expected the British Mod to send somebody to interview me and at least take a look. Him, you know, days went by, weeks went by, and I thought, all well. I'll just pull you Colonel, you then commenced an investigation and you were aware of this data two nights previous to your sighting, one of the some of your men had actually seen an object come back. Yes. What did you do? I called them in. I had, you know, some great concerns and I really wanted some more information. I called them all in independently, one at a time. Who were these men? Bobby Ball actually was with me. J.D. Chandler, who had been a senior supervisor, a master sergeant who had stayed at the East Gate. Jim Anniston, John Burrows, Ed Cabana, sac, and, Skip Brown, who was a lieutenant in the Security Police squadron. I'm trying to think who else?

33:51 I got a statement. That's fine. Let's take this, Mr. Steele. Firstly, with Jim Pennington's account, you interviewed Jim. What did he tell you? Well, Jim didn't want to talk about it at first. Jim was extremely nervous, very, very concerned for his career and was, how should I say, quite upset about the whole incident up until that point. What were your impressions of Jim Kingston as a soldier? Very, very, very, very favorable. I had worked with him in the command post for numerous exercises. He was a what usually was the security police liaison into my unit in the command post, when we would get cooped up for days at a time. So let's hypothetically assume, obviously, if I'm telling you this, if Pete Waters was holding nuclear weapons, he'd be the sort of person who'd be entrusted with the custody of whatever it was inside. Right? Because no one could say that. A very credible person. Very credible person. What did he tell you? He told me that he didn't thought he saw a downed aircraft from the lights he saw from the east gate.

34:52 He and two of his compadres, which I've mentioned their names, went out to investigate and they came across a strange craft. That's what he told me, is the craft that Jim Pierson described to you the same as the one that you saw? I don't know the reason I say that, as he saw a very clear physical object, according to him, triangular. He had dimensions. He had taken pictures. He had taken his notebook out and made notes of the inscriptions on the side of the object. He had actually physically touched the object. This is all according to him in his statement, and he drew a sketch for me of what he saw, and more importantly, he told you what he'd seen and describe that object to you within a couple of days of the incident. That's correct. And he referred to the hieroglyphics on the side of the object. He certainly did. And at that point, I didn't know he had a notebook that he had written and down. He just told me he had made notes of it. How did he appreciate the time? very, very upset. He wanted to get away from the base for a while.

35:52 He actually went on leave just to kind of get away from things. Had he been interrogated by anyone else prior to you talking to the. At that time, I did not know that, that he had been interrogated just prior to my talking to him or very soon thereafter. I don't know the exact timeline he and 4 or 5, actually five other four other people said independently that they were taken by the Office of Security and Special Investigations with some other people involved, including some British people. And they were interrogated and they were given drugs and they were hypnotized. Do you believe that? Yes. There's no doubt in your mind. There's no doubt in my mind. Why are you so sure? Because they all independently told me that. Is this an investigation that preceded yours? It was going on, at the same time, apparently. And yet you're the deputy commander. And you did confirm this. Well, you have to understand, there are a lot of things that are done, how shall I say, under the cloak of secrecy that aren't talked about?

36:56 That was not uncommon. The other side did a lot of things that they probably wouldn't like to have come to the light of day. So these men, independently interrogated. What what was the drug that they were doing? I don't know what the drug was. They told me it was an injection. I won't I would only have to guess. Would be sodium pentothal or something equivalent a truth drug. Yes. Is it within the purview of the CIA at the time? To do that, you'd have to ask the oversight. I would certainly think not. However. But you're in no doubt whatsoever that the was interrogations. And that's what these is going to do. And what I think the intent was to get. And I tried to say the full story from them, and I strongly suspect the plants and false memories to put out this information to make the story so ridiculous. That's why I think that one of the participants, excuse me, one of the wannabe participants who got grabbed up in this, this medal was so badly and told such a bizarre story

37:58 about Little Green men and clouds of smoke. And we repairing this downed craft with components from our avionics shop and all other words. You make it so ridiculous that everybody laughs and says, oh, that very good trick works. But let's talk about what Jim Pennington. So Jim Pennington told you, didn't you, that he saw craft. That's correct. With inscriptions on the side. That's he did. And when he did a drawing and I've, you know, I have the drawing and when you're talking to him and he's telling you this, did you find him credible? Yes. I find it very upset. Was his account corroborated by the other people that knew it to a certain extent by John Burroughs? Yes. John. Apparently John wasn't as close to the object as as Pastor. That's the only conclusion I can draw. But keep in mind, I think they they were all hypnotized and at some point metal with a little bit by US government and by certain agencies

38:58 that you were a colonel in the US Air Force, retired. Your own military is capable of this kind of thing. Unfortunately, I, I think so. You interrogated these men at the end of it. Did you reach a conclusion? Yes. That there was something we couldn't explain. And it was obvious to me that there was no interest on the part of the British government. After a very short period of time, my superiors didn't want to be involved in it. It certainly wasn't career enhancing, so I didn't pursue it too awfully far. Can I ask you this, though, sir? If this was a nuclear weapons facility, and even if it wasn't, it was certainly a defense security issue, wasn't it? I would certainly think so. Were you surprised by the reluctance of the British and American investigators to take the issue, sir? Yes. Very surprised. I expected a lot of activity and I won't go into details to what I expected, but I expected a lot of activity.

40:02 Have you ever had any explanation for wanting to go? I think the issue was that the the powers to be did not want it to become public knowledge. One more. If it became public knowledge to be so ridiculous and it would be scoffed and laughed off. You're convinced there was something there that, I'm firmly convinced there was something there that might. One thing I have to put you properly is the skeptics suggest that on your type, the audio of your description of the frequency of light, there was a flashing light, wasn't there, on the object that you were seeing. And you describe that flashing lights, the flashing light was actually the object was, I say, winking, blinking, whatever. No, I can't say that Bruce England is the one who says, there's the light. There's a light or something. I can't say that at that point. He wasn't looking to the lighthouse. I don't know what he was looking at, but I was looking at a red object in front of the farmers.

41:03 Okay, but let's talk about what you saw. Let's go with your first person knowledge. Did you see a flashing, strobing light on the unexplained object? No. All I saw was equivalent of a winking. It's the best I can describe. It's sort of like the center of the eye. I moved a little bit. Is it because that's the winking that you saw matched the frequency of the flashing? Oh, I don't know. Because at that point I didn't, you know, I was not correlating the flashing light at the lighthouse because I was ignoring the lighthouse. The lighthouse was a beam that was there. so so let's just go back a bit. You had seen a winking on the object? That's correct. Unexplained object. On the tape, there is a voice where the voice reports seeing a flashing light. That may be Bruce England. It's not. You tell. It's not me. So is it possible that when Bruce England was describing a flashing light, he was actually looking at the lighthouse?

42:04 That's certainly possible. I don't know, because I have no idea what he was looking at. So when the skeptics make much of the frequency of the light, it's flashing, matching the frequency of the lighthouse. That's not the light that you're describing. No, I was ignoring the lighthouse. You knew with a light? Yes, I saw the lighthouse. There's no doubt in your word. No. I used to go out to the pub in Orford. There's a very good pub that had fantastic food out there and it's good. Prices used to go out and have dinner from time to time. And I've been on Orford Island, where the lighthouse is, so the lighthouse light flashing away separately was completely distinguishable from what you were saying. That's correct. Okay. Let's go back to the Post-Incident investigation that you did. You interrogated all of these men, and it slowly became clear to you that this was an ongoing investigation, that you didn't know that at that time. I didn't know there was one. I had suspicions, so I confronted the OSI commander, who was a friend of mine, and said, do you have any interest?

43:04 Are you involved in this? And he said, none whatsoever, which was a blatant lie. And I believed him at that time until I found out through later events and the people that were involved started talking a little more freely as time passed. Why would he want you hold it? Because probably the class ification of it was probably so highly compartmentalized and just it wasn't going to get common knowledge at that point. I don't think my boss had any idea either. He may have picked up on something later as things went on, but at that time, I don't think any of the senior officers were aware that I was doing their thing, and it was not uncommon they did not work for the local commander. It was sort of a dotted line, if you will. If we had an under drug undercover drug activity going on and then, you know, surveillance, etc., we would know about that if we had some misbehavior on the part of some people. We would know about that if we had anything it was highly classified or had to do with a foreign government or something. Espionage, we would not know.

44:04 Okay, let's go through. You know, whatever the plausible explanations are, it might be put out of service. Could it have been a meteor or space Jam? So I thought about that. In fact, a Russian satellite came out about that time, not far from us. I'm told it could. There was a meteor shower. But meteors don't go back up. Don't move through the trees. Could it have been lightning? I thought that's the first thing I thought when I saw this ball of lightning. But it lingered too long. How long? We watch it. We're talking for several minutes. And would ball lightning move through a tree, through the trees, through the forest, and go up and down and back and forth? I don't think so, but I don't know. I've never seen ball lightning that I know clearly. After interviewing Jim Pastor John Burrows. And then I said, you were left with the possibility that what you were looking at was a presumably a highly sophisticated form of technology that's beyond what we currently understand humans to be capable of. Watch it.

45:04 That's right. In fact, I'm thinking in my mind at that time, how am I ever going to explain this? Nobody will believe this. What was it crossing your mind that what you were looking at was possibly extraterrestrial? Either that or from another dimension, perhaps. I don't know, I certainly had the feeling. How did I get involved in this? Why did I get involved in this in which I had come out here? You're a sign manager. You've got no history of mental illness, no. There's no history of delusions in your field. None whatsoever. And yet you were seeing something that's beyond human understanding. That's correct. You know, I was baffled. I would like answers. I have sought out numerous people that are experts in certain field, astrophysicist, etc. and ask them, you know, what do you think of this? What could this be? And I've never gotten a good explanation. There's been a considerable campaign over the years to discredit you and suggest that you didn't see what you say you saw.

46:04 Wasn't there? Yes. It's been suggested that your story has been embellished or changed as the years have gone by. I think if you go back and listen to the tape and read the statement, I think you'll find I've been most consistent. Has the US government ever made a statement about what it believes happened in the forest? Not that I know of. I would certainly like one. Do you believe that the US government or somebody in the US government knows more than they let in go? I suspect there's more than one agency that knows a lot more than what they're alleging on. I suspect there's several intelligence agencies that actually compete in this area, along with other areas for information, for access, share things when it's convenient, and other times, don't you think it suits the American government and the British government for the public to snigger whenever people talk about UFOs? Well, I think that may be part of the, how shall I say, the overall scheme of things, to keep some things so ridiculous and ferment

47:05 certain things and certain groups that are, how shall I say, there's a lot of people that get involved with UFOs that are certainly, I'm sure I say, out of the mainstream being polite. What was a few crazy? You can say that I, I have saved all the correspondence and documents that have come to me unsolicited, and everything from I've seen the second coming of Christ. I've been in cahoots with the devil to you name it. There's no explanation you can think of for what you saw that night. None whatsoever. I would certainly like some answers. I have a feeling I may never get answers, and it's caused a lot of problems for some of the young people that were involved. What I've learned to do is put it on a shelf. If somebody sets yourself comments and answers, asks me questions, I try and give an honest, straightforward answer. Other than that, I'm not preoccupied. I don't go around looking in the sky. I don't go reading every UFO magazine, I don't subscribe. Many people have sent me books. I have looked through the books out of curiosity. And, you know, especially if they make reference to me, you're going to I'm going to look at them all so that, crucially,

48:05 you don't expect, do you, to ever know what happened that I have? Unfortunately I don't, and I don't think I've ever had good a good answer. Why do you believe the United States government knows more than it's very on? Well, there's there's several reasons. one, we did an inspection of NSA several years ago, and I was in a to do so that's the National Security Agency. Yes. And at that time, one of the the wannabe that was supposedly involved with put himself into the scene, so to speak, and got himself in brush enmeshed in the middle of it all and had some medical problems. He was let go from the Air Force. Larry. Well, yes, his records supposedly disappeared, and he was having difficulties, which are probably that's all, probably all true. I don't know for a fact, but I suspect it's true. And Larry Warren called me up and said that he was going to go public. He was going to sue the Air Force or some such thing. He would go after NSA and make a big splash in the paper. At that time, we were doing an organizational inspection of NSA.

49:06 So I told my team chief, who was doing the lead man, to tell his counterpart in NSA if they had anything to do with it all, that it might be time to either come clean or, you know, plan their response. And I immediately got a call from the chief of the compromised division and NSA, who knew an awful lot about it, but wouldn't admit that he knew about it. But why does that make me? My team chief didn't know anything about it. So, you know, why would he didn't convey anything? So they obviously somebody, somewhere had a file, had an interest. Why does that make me believe that if the US government knows more than it's taking on? Because the way the whole thing came down, the fact that there was a background, black investigation, if you will, of this whole thing, I find out later, piecing bits together. I was not informed most. I don't think anybody in a base other than maybe 1 or 2 individuals were aware of it, and it was a whole lot of stuff went on in the background. Strange people showed up at the Forest Service office asking unusual questions. Almost immediately after the event, people that lived in the area, British

50:09 citizens, had folks come to the door, you know, in trench coats, some speaking American English, if you will, asking questions. supposedly the control tower at Eastern Radar had visitors looking for takes. All sorts of things happened in the background. The police blotters disappeared from the files. Interesting, isn't it? This is something disturbingly like an eastern out of the X-Files. Well, I hate to say it, but, there's some very, how shall I say, skillful people in the background doing some things. And you believe there's a seasoned officer in the US military that it's capable of that sort of thing? Certainly. You realize it's reflecting adversely on the place that you worked for. For some, unfortunately. Let's talk about radar, because did you ever see or be briefed on any information which suggested that there was, in fact, a radar return on those objects that night? The the only thing I know, it was the I was given the feedback from the command post when I called and asked them to check with eastern

51:11 radar to check the location to see what they could find. I was told there was nothing there that night on the radio. However, later, several months later, I was at a party with some British friends and one of the radar operators sought me out of the party and told me he was on duty that night in the tower, and they did pick up some returns that night with the times, but I they said the tapes were collected and taken by somebody. Now, I don't know if that's true, that's hearsay. But was he right out. Right. Yes. We're quite confident about. Yes, yes. You see, what you're suggesting is that there's a conspiracy inside both the British and the American government to keep the story. Well, I don't have any doubt about it. You sure about that? Yeah. I'm very comfortable saying that as a colonel, you're. You're pretty much one below general of the US Air Force. Okay. Yes. Because if you're a senior, right? I mean, I'm not reflecting on you. I'm basically talking about your credibility. You're not somebody who likely makes a criticism of the force in which you've served for so long.

52:15 Well, you know, I don't. I honestly think I was hung out to dry, to be honest with you. And may sound of a scapegoat. And then the bogus stories planted and false information not. And, so there's been a campaign to discredit you. Certainly. And you stick to your guns. I do. One of the things that Georgina Bruni, the UFO investigator, claims is that Margaret Thatcher said after she was prime Minister, said, you can't tell the people. Do you believe that there's a view that you can't tell the people? Actually, I think the general public would at this point accept the fact that there are some other type of alien beings or some other type of life form that either coexists with us or visits us. I don't think people think, you know, you're going back to Orson Welles and his radio program, when people jumped off bridges and buildings and did all sorts of stupid things because of his radio program.

53:15 I don't think the public would react that way today. Why do you think there are some in the military who take the view that we need to be protected from the idea that they. They might be other alternative lifeforms out there in the universe. Well, I think there's two concern. One is about the reaction of the general public, which I don't think would be that troublesome. That's number one. And number two is the fact that, there are let's face it, we are in competition with other, adversarial countries, if you will, and there is a great deal of interest in the we need to gain as much information technology or the edge, so to speak, from any potential other life form. I know you don't know one way or the other what you saw that not what it was, but do you have a gut feel it? No, I really don't. I just know that there was something, somewhere that was controlling what I saw. Which is a bit scary. It certainly is a bit scary. Does it keep you away, please? as I told you earlier, I kind of put it on the shelf.

54:17 If I had to worry about it all the time, I wouldn't get anything else done. I have too many other issues in my life. I just get on with. Has it affected that in sort of the way you view the military? You served so well for some years? Well, when more of the story started unfolding, I was very disappointed, to be very honest. Number one, I was lied to, which is not uncommon, I guess. Yeah. Number two, the behavior and the activities took place, I don't much I would question the ethics, but, that's not my position. I guess the important thing about your case is that the newly released British archives confirm that even the skeptical British Ministry of Defense investigators couldn't explain what you saw, could they? I guess not. I still want to know why they didn't come and talk to me. They kind of ordered me to shut up. They could have said what the you know, and, you know, tell me everything. Put us in touch with everybody and you cannot speak about this.

55:18 And you and I wouldn't be here today. Have you spoken to other people in the US military? Privately? We've told you about things that I've seen. I've had I have not searched out people. People have searched me out and sent me emails or sent me letters or called me and said, you know, I saw something similar and this, that, and the next thing. And what did they say? they've told me everything from, missiles being reprogramed or missiles being taken off line mysteriously and strange objects in the sky, strange things happening to people. And, some of them are very credible people and they don't necessarily want to know their name, or they didn't go public with it, or in some cases, they were actually ordered to be silent and forget anything even happened. Well, do you believe from what you saw, Rendlesham, do you believe that there is a conspiracy to cover up what's going on? I certainly believe there's a cover up. Are you sure about that? Oh, I'm sure. I would certainly like to get the answers, but don't expect to.

56:20 Why do you believe that? There was a black secret investigation going on into what happened to the forest? Because of what? The people that were interrogated. 4 or 5, actually, five people who were interrogated independently told me. And they have most consistently held of that story that they were taken in. And they told me, describe the building. That would be the right place. They were interrogated, they were given injections, they were hypnotized. There were some strange people in the room. By strange, I don't mean alien. I mean people that they didn't recognize in the room. And, they were walked through everything. They knew, what they told to be quiet. But what they said, the interesting thing is that the only two of them have said one particular one said that they were given some information in stone. Some films or videos, and told that they had to be quiet. What if the films or videos that they were shown. So, they had to do with apparently alien craft of some type or something? According to them. So the witnesses that you spoke to, that you interrogated are claiming

57:24 that they were shown by members of the US military films acknowledging the existence of alien spacecraft. That's correct. What did you take away from that? Well, I was a bit still still a bit skeptical of that because I'm not sure what kind of films we have. But I do know there's been some incidents that have been fairly well documented. At any stage, did you go to your superiors and raise with them that they banned this alleged black investigation? No, because at that time I didn't know. It was until later after I left that water. So I, you know, all started to come out. And specifically, you had a denial from the man you knew from the Office of Special Interest. That's correct. This was in reduced edition, but now you're very sure that it was. Well, yes. In fact, his number two man was identified by somebody who didn't know him specifically at that time as being one of the main participants, and he would be the guy that would come out with a rubber hose.

58:25 That's figurative speech, you know, to work on people psychologically. What was the purpose of those interrogations? I think the purpose of the interrogation is to get the total story, to find out everything that they knew, and to plant some false impression. So to be some disinformation to make the whole incident look ridiculous. The bit about little green men and repairing the craft from our avionics, with avionics components from our shops and things of that nature were just so bizarre. Why do you believe Jim Henson when he says that he saw of just a lot, but a solid, larger craft with rocket on the side? Just my experience with him for several years, he'd been very credible, and I'd seen him under pressure in a lot of instances, and he held up very well. He wasn't the sort of man who made things up. No, not at all very serious. Are you able to say whether it's true or not, that

59:26 mean who were involved that night were rapidly taken away from the base and relocated to other military? No, they weren't. As a matter of fact, and no, they weren't promoted because of it or demoted or whatever. No, everybody that I know, I've rotated, I say rotated, went to another installation or another based on, you know, their normal time to leave from I was there for another two years or three years. And were there any other incidents? The only other incident I know of, I was told by two security policemen, occurred in Guy Fawkes Night in, the following year. Supposedly an object cigar shaped object loosely, as they described it, floated over Woodbridge base, looped around to Control Tower, which was closed at that time, and then silently went out toward the sea. one of the patrolmen told me this much later when he was getting ready to leave the base, and I said, why didn't you come forward earlier? He said, because I saw the ridicule. The rest of you went through when you were involved in the incident.

1:00:27 I didn't want any part of that. Let's talk hypothetically from a future, even assuming that this is a technologically sophisticated, intelligent civilization, that we don't know that that's in charge of this craft, why would they come all the way to play with this and bob up and down over riff? Because that's a good question. I can't answer that question. I wondered that myself. there are some natural attractants in that area, that being the fact that the nuclear power plant Sizewell was just up the coast, the fact that for, Orford Ness, where the lighthouse was, was where the British made their nuclear triggers during the war and did a lot of experimental work with high frequency beams, over the horizon, radar type things. RAAF bonsai was just adjacent to us RF boxes, where all the original radar work took place during World War two, and a huge installation was built. what we had on the base, there's a lot of, I would say, attractants to the area. I personally think they were attracted to the base for some reason, something that we had.

1:01:30 You say they because I say they or it, I said it in the plural. Yes. But whatever it was, whatever it or it or they was I think was attracted to the base for some particular reason. But crucially, it was a conscious, intelligent entity. Yes. I think it was something that was doing recon work for the equivalent or doing some type of probing. There are probably people sitting at home right now wondering, is this guy for you? Well, I all I can say is what I saw and what I was witness to. You'll have to draw your own conclusions. check what's there. This is one of three plaster casts. It was made by Jim Peskin the morning after he had the. If you will, encounter with this object. Jim was very upset and went back home. His landlord was a plaster by trade, and he was looking for some way to make copies of the impression. This landlord said, let me give you some plaster of Paris, and you go back out and make impressions.

1:02:31 So Jim went out and made and this has been broken a little bit. It was rounder one time, but there were three of these. This is number two, a number of them, and dated them when he made them. He gave me this later for safekeeping because one of his mysteriously disappeared and he thinks that somebody, or should I say, took it. Okay. What did you see? This this illustration is formed. But this is what a mold of the impression was in the ground. The three impressions are equal distance apart. So it was a triangle. A triangle shapes with three impressions. Very similar to this. They were all I saw the three initially when he had all three. So you could confirm that this is all three were the same shape and the same size. Approximately, and something had to be fairly heavy to push down into the Senate. The soil pretty firm, sandy soil with pine needles on it. You can see little bits of the grit from the soil. And on here some of the pine needles that fell went over. The plaster was hardening up. So Jim made so that he had some physical evidence,

1:03:33 because he was firmly convinced that nobody would ever believe him. And he was trying to find some way to document this and have something he could hear, see this. And that's what he did. And even later, I knew I do. It's an incredible thought. What could it be that made that indentation, this note? Yeah, I would say something probably weighed maybe 1,000 pounds, maybe more to make that three legs, to make that type of an impression. Something very heavy. Obviously. Chuck, just give me an idea. Is this a tape recorder you use that? Not. This is the original tape recorder. The original linear tape recorder. Unfortunately, it's seen better days. It's, it's a senior citizen who no longer works proper service. Okay, Wagga, is that the tape recorder? You're using that now? Yeah, the original linear. It's part of a system, actually. The dictaphone system. unfortunately, it no longer properly functions. It's a senior citizen. It's been around for a long time. Well, it's 1980 vintage. Not much is made its use editing the tape. Was there any edits on the tape that you recorded it?

1:04:34 No, no. If you can look, you'll see. Record, stop play. And all I did was play record, record stop. So the clicks that people can hear are where you'll stop against this little switch right here. Sliding the switch. I mean, I use this all the time or on the bass. I didn't take notes or carry a pencil and paper. I carry this, I'd come back to the office and take off. Here's the original tape. Take out the little tape, give it to the secretary, and she would type up notes or whatever, you know, go around and see things that needed to be done or activities going on. And One of the things that puzzles me, those if there was indeed electrical interference that was stopping the lights from working and stopping cameras from working, why didn't it stop the tape recorder? I don't have the slightest idea. keep in mind, though, I did on the use. I did it using infrequently. I could turn it on, just click turn on record for maybe a minute, two minutes, maybe only 10s turn it back off. Maybe the fact that this is battery operated, I don't know. Oh, it's a puzzle. Yeah, it is, but, but crucially, I mean, you've got this evidence.

1:05:35 Do you think that without this tape, your your claims would have been taken as seriously as I have? Probably not. Because this tape has been analyzed to death by people for stress analysis, all sorts of different things. And people have made transcripts and picked out it, you know, took it all apart. Sentence by sentence, word by word. He said this, she said that, they said this, etc.. So, yeah. So I think this does help some credibility. that wasn't the intent. The intent was just it's easier to use a tape recorder than it is to try and carry a notebook on a pencil. Well, you actually went to the forest that night to disprove. I certainly did, but. And I carry just routinely, I always carry it with me anywhere. I went on a base. What was it? I don't know where it was. I know it was something under intelligent control that I can't explain. I have no idea what it was. And certainly I'd like to know. Do you think you'll ever. I have my doubts. To be very honest with you. We may get more information. The information may leak out of some of the investigative work that was done behind the scenes. That may help put some of the pieces together,

1:06:37 but I rather doubt we get the whole story. And you're very sure, aren't you, that someone in government is covering something up? Somebody in government knows a whole lot more than they're talking about, and it's not a lot of background work on this.